german light tank Schützenpanzer SPz 11-2 Kurz

[CaID 8,996]

 

i would like to suggest a nice German IFV with french origine, the Schützenpanzer SPz 11-2 Kurz

 

 

the Schützenpanzer SPz 11-2 Kurz  was based on the Hotchkiss TT 6 who itself was a french APC who didn't went into production despite the order of 50 vehicles.

the TT6 was designed in 1950 and was meant to be the standard french APC but the algerian war had forced the french to relocated their budget and finally cancelled the TT 6 production. the hotchkiss tank was them left into a prototype stage. until in 1955, the Franco-German relation warmed up and a west german delegation came in november 1955 to see the APC. fallowing a order to built in 1956 a recon version of the TT 6 armed with a 20mm auto-cannon. the Schützenpanzer SPz 11-2 Kurz  was born

the Schützenpanzer SPz 11-2 Kurz  was actually a large scale production vehicles. with nearly 2,600 vehicles build on the base of the Spz 11-2, the Recon version was the most prolific with 1,600 of them. it was produced from the end of 1956 with the production shared between Hotchkiss (2000 vehicles built) and Klöckner-Humboldt-Deutz AG (nearly 600). they entered in service in 1959 in the HEER of the West-Germany. despite of been having a lot of quality, they never got any other contract to produce the vehicles for another country. they serve well the Germany army until the end of 1987, by them, they was replaced by the Spähpanzer Luchs who entered in service in 1975 until they replaced the Spz 11-2 competly.

Firepower.

Spoiler

despite of the look of it, the Spz 11-2 do not have the Rh 202 20mm auto-cannon. it was not yet into service (and not even been developed at all). it have the French HS.820 who was using the same cartridge as the Rh-202.

the french auto-cannon would be no less good. with a high rate of fire, a good penetration and excellent elevation, this vehicles main armament would not lack of versatility. sure it would have difficulty to deal with some heavy armor, but for all the rest, this tank will do it all well

 

the gun is mounted in a fully rotation turret with an elevation of -20°/+75° giving no blind spot in the battlefield. the only flaw is a mare 500 rounds is carried making it rather easy to run out of ammo

weapon of type Auto-cannon, designed by Hispano-Suiza to replace the HS 404

 

very performing, and very appreciated, the HS 820 chamber longer rounds over the HS 404 and have a much higher velocity and fire rate. this weapon was capable to be belt-feed, drum freed or magazine feed. it was used as much against ground target than it was for air-target. it was very commonly used for IFV vehicles. it was bought by Oerlikon who renamed it Oerlikon KAD.

 

Weight: 66 kg

Magazine: 60 rounds  (or belt)

barrel caliber : unknown

rounds size: 20 x 139 mm

Rate of fire: 1000 min

practical range: 1500m (against arial target)

 

ammo

Spoiler

DM43 (HVAP-T)

standard AP round made with steel and a tungsten core. it is the same as used in the RH 202

 

 

• projectile weight : 112 g

• Velocity : 1100 m/sec

 

penetration (in-game & estimated)

 

• 52 mm at 100 meter, angle 0°
• 37 mm at 500 meter, angle 0°
• 24 mm at 1 000 meter, angle 0°
• 15 mm at 1 500 meter, angle 0°

 

 

RIA (APHEI)

standard multi-purpose rounds used for the HS-820. this round was ideal for light armored vehicles, infantry and aircraft.

 

• projectile weight : 120 g

• Velocity : 1100 m/sec

• explosive : 4.5 g (type Hexal)

 

penetration (reported)

• 50 mm at 100 meter, angle 0°

 

Penetration (estimated)

• 43 mm at 100 meter, angle 0°
• 30 mm at 500 meter, angle 0°
• 19 mm at 1 000 meter, angle 0°

 

 

DM31A1 (HE-I)

standard 20mm round in services in the 50s in Germany

 

• projectile weight : 120 g

• Velocity : 1050 m/sec

• explosive : 10 g (type Hexal)

 

 

 

 

 

 

mobility

Spoiler

powered by a 164-hp Hotchkiss OHV. the engine is an inline 6-cylinder water cooled. the engine could reach 3600 rpm and produce at that rate the power of 164 hp.

 

the vehicles is having 4 forward gear and 1 rearward gear. going as fallow

Gear 1 : 0 to 8 km/h

Gear 2 : 8 to 17 km/h

Gear 3 : 17 to 32 km/h

Gear 4 : 32 to 58 km/h

reverse : 0 to 7 km/h

 

the power weight of this tank i giving about 20 hp/tons making it much better than the M24 in mobility (just a refenrence)

the off-road capacity and the top speed would be good but nothing to be crazy about. a speed tank like the M18 hellcat will for sure still pass infront, but the Spz 11-2 will still get in front of any medium tank such as the Panther, M4 sherman, T-34 ect...

 

Protection

Spoiler

been a light tank give it a relatively low level of protection. the armor is made of an high quality steel alloy of Chrome-Nickel-Molydenum. laminated and tempered. each plate was built and carefully inspected with the high standard of the french requirement. a plate of each lot was tested for the resistance and bullet perforation.

the plate are assemble by welding and treated before been carefully inspected.

 

if from one type of hotchkiss light tank from another, the hull may change, the armor remain the same in all of them.

the front-lower plate is 15mm

the front-uppet plate is 10mm

the side and rear is 8mm

the roof is 8mm

the bottom is 15mm at the front and 8mm at the rear half.

 

the engine compartment is closed by a air tight wall.

 

the hull is peinted with a special olive-green color who not only give a basic camouflage, but also give infra-red reflection closer to the flora than an usual tank. the muffler is inside the tank, and the muzzle is behind the grill of the air-exist, making the Infra-red detection at the minimum.

 

the defense can always be helped by the smoke. there is 6x smoke grenade launcher on the side of the turret that can allow you to escape some risky encounter.

the crew of 5 men is rather high for such small vehicles. giving you some men to spare in case of hit.

the engine place on the front right, also allow some dirrect hit to be absorbed by the thick steel of the mechanicals. that would leave you imobilized, but may save your crew.

Specifications
Mass	8,200 kg (18,100 lb)
Length	4.51 m
Width	2.28 m
Height	1.97 m
Crew	5
Armor	Front upper plate : 10mm Front lower plate : 15mm side : 8mm rear : 8mm roof : 8mm front half of the floor : 15mm rear half of the floor : 8mm
Main armament	1 x 20 mm Hispano-Suiza 820/L85 Cannon
Secondary armament	6 x Smoke grenade launchers
Engine	1 x Hotchkiss et Cie 6-cylinder petrol engine 164 hp (122 kW)
Suspension	torsion bar
Operational range	390 km (244 miles)
Maximum speed	58 km/h

 

here is some picture of a suviving vehicles. there is a lot of details including the inside. by Vladimir Yakubov

 

due to the high elevation, this tank could be a decent SPAA, it would be at least very treating the enemy in the sky around. but it remain a recon vehicles of type AFV. it would be a good light tank for the mid tier. considering despite the R3-T20-FA been recently increased to BR 4.3, i believe the SPz 11-2 is still comparable in protection, firepower and mobility even if it is a tracked vehicles. as the R3-T20-FA could easily be changed to get the BR 6.0-7.0 where i believe it would be more appropriated, the SPz 11-2 could be good at a BR of 5.3 to 6.0, where the heavy tanks get less common in the other nation but more common in the German one. Heavy tank would be the Nemesis of the SPz 11-2, but the medium, light and air target should be possible to fight. with the French EBR and many other light armored vehicles getting more and more common in the battlefield, the SPz 11-2 would fair very well against them. and revenge bombing would not be without fighting back. when bored, the SPz 11-2 would be as good SPAA as any SPAA until the radar. it is also a logical predecessor to the Marder 1

 

also check the similar and related vehicles

 

source

Hotchkiss brochure

Spoiler

blob:https://imgur.com/fc6075f6-6458-4797-8ee4-ec20b35a7cd0

 

 

http://www.theworldwars.net/weapons/entry.php?b=land&m=spz11-2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schützenpanzer_SPz_11-2_Kurz

http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/bw_spz_kurz_11-2.htm

https://www.loutan.net/olivier/archives/2019/10/08/vehicule-blinde-a-chenilles-schutzenpanzer-spz-11-2-kurz-hotchkiss-sp-1a-armee-allemande/

https://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/West_Germany/Schutzenpanzer-Kurz-11-2.php (yeah, that one is full of misinformation and guess work)

Edited August 17, 2021 by CaID

[ItssLuBu 1,798]

Approved and open for discussion. 

[blockhaj 3,559]

I'd prefer if we can avoid another R3 T20 FA-HS/ZSD63. A no from me.

[Wolf_89 2,525]

Would be okay with them adding this. BUT.

I don't want another R3 in lower BR.

 

So put it at a higher BR. I know it will have a problem penning tanks at higher BR.

But give it scouting/repair assist. And place it in the SPAA line.

[eleks12 1,079]

+1 

[Stuhlfleisch 3,762]

Very cute, it would be great in the light-tank line! +1 

[CaID 8,996]

i good up-date adding primary source with a incredibly amounts of details from the builder.

thanks to @Anodjl

 

the anti-tank variants suggestion was written. it is pending for approval

[AspandaIV 375]

I would love to see this AC eventually but it should be at a minimum BR of 6.0 since even though the gun has a low pen, the gun depression and the size of this vehicle means that it can exploit a lot of weakspots of enemy tanks that most ground vehicles cannot

[CaID 8,996]

7 hours ago, AspandaIV said:

I would love to see this AC eventually but it should be at a minimum BR of 6.0 since even though the gun has a low pen, the gun depression and the size of this vehicle means that it can exploit a lot of weakspots of enemy tanks that most ground vehicles cannot

indeed. and the 20mm is pretty OP against planes, even against early jets. i tried the R3 T20 FA-HS at BR 7.3 (it have the same gun and ammo load) and the R3 was doing well against planes and even some medium tanks.

if the SPz 11-2 do not have as much mobility than the R3 T-20 FA-HS, it still carry the same firepower and flexibility of the armament. and the armor is a tiny bit better. at a BR around 6.0 it would do well enough but i think a BR near 5.0 is better. (the R3 T-20 FA-HS could definitively get a BR above 6.0)

 

it basically use all the rounds available for the Marder A1-. only the Marder A1- should also have the DM63 who is an APDS that entered into service in 1989. sadly it was 2 years after the Spz 11-2 was retired.

Edited August 17, 2021 by CaID

[Milocat 4,854]

+1 from me as long as it doesn't get too low of a BR.

[Ghostmaxi 873]

I have just noticed, that i know of 1 of thses in the Ambulance version located here in germany. To be exact you can see in on TV/internet in the Show "Steel Buddies" S9E5 "Aufgebockt" when some of them throw away old Hmww wheels.

 

[_Pixy 196]

+1

[Chris4win 366]

+1 would be a nice auto cannon spaa for germany similar to the r3, BTR-ZD and Bosvark

[PercussionCap 24]

+1, Germany needs a light tank somewhere between the Puma and M41.

[gojuancamilo@psn 307]

14 hours ago, PercussionCap said:

+1, Germany needs a light tank somewhere between the Puma and M41.

I guess you mean between the Marder and the M41. Still, this does not fit between those vehicles, it is only armed with a 20mm. To fill that gap the Schützenpanzer Lang LGS M40A1 would be much better, it also has a 106mm recoiless rifle.

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/377109-schützenpanzer-lang-lgs-m40a1/

 

Also, I feel this vehicle is too similar to the wiesel so it's not that interesting for it to be added. Maybe as an event or something like that.

[Chris4win 366]

57 minutes ago, gojuancamilo@psn said:

I guess you mean between the Marder and the M41. Still, this does not fit between those vehicles, it is only armed with a 20mm. To fill that gap the Schützenpanzer Lang LGS M40A1 would be much better, it also has a 106mm recoiless rifle.

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/377109-schützenpanzer-lang-lgs-m40a1/

 

Also, I feel this vehicle is too similar to the wiesel so it's not that interesting for it to be added. Maybe as an event or something like that.

 

Why would it be higher than the r3 at 5.3? It should not be higher than 6.3 if it has apds. Without apds it would be worse than the r3

Edited February 16, 2023 by Chris4win

[gojuancamilo@psn 307]

7 minutes ago, Chris4win said:

Why would it be higher than the r3 at 5.3? It should not be higher than 6.3 if it has apds. Without apds it would be worse than the r3

Well it would be essentially a less mobile FIAT 6614 but with the addition of a 20mm autocannon. As the FIAT is 6.3 I believe the Lang LGS M40A1 merits either also 6.3 or 6.7. In any case after the M41 which is also 6.3.

[Chris4win 366]

9 minutes ago, gojuancamilo@psn said:

Well it would be essentially a less mobile FIAT 6614 but with the addition of a 20mm autocannon. As the FIAT is 6.3 I believe the Lang LGS M40A1 merits either also 6.3 or 6.7. In any case after the M41 which is also 6.3.

 

I was talking about this tank (spz 11-4kurz) with just a 20mm cannon and it should be 5.3 aswell which is nowhere close to the wiesel. The lang should be 6.7 or 7.0. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Chris4win

[PercussionCap 24]

On 16/02/2023 at 16:22, gojuancamilo@psn said:

I guess you mean between the Marder and the M41.

Nope, it would fit between the M41 and Puma (SdKfz 234/2) as it only has a 20mm. I think it's pretty interesting since it's one of those vehicles you never see, and one that I didn't know even existed until I went looking for weird german light tanks in this time period.

Plus there's also the Boxer, and both Luchs (one is essentially an 8x8 Wiesel, and the other is based on the Pz. II).