german ifv Schützenpanzer SPz 12-3 Lang (HS.30)

[CaID 8,996]

 

i would like to sugestt a very interesting APC/IFV for the German tree, the Schützenpanzer Lang HS.30

been designed for a specific requirement after rejecting the American concept of APC (battle Taxi) the SPz HS.30 was possibly one of the first IFV vehicles ever created. as the German was not looking in APC a simple vehicles to carry infantry in the battle, they wanted them to also carry firesupport, fighting capacity, fallow the armored division and led assault. all that at the cost of carrying half the men than the analogue vehicles from the other nation. the SPz HS.30 was much closer to a IFV than an APC.

as fallowing the WW2, west Germany was not having much interest in developing weapon, since exporting them would be against the treaty and this killed any change of revenue from their own development, West-Germany turned to their aillied. having aquired the M47 patton, M41 walkerbulldog from USA and the SPz 11-2 from France, the German naturally turned to them to see what APC they could get. the French AMX 13 VTP was just too expensive, the M59 from USA was just too big. then come a new solution

proposed by the french society, Hispano-Suiza in 1955, the HS.30 (factory name) was accepted into mass production even before the prototype was built. the tanks was just what they wanted. a low cost, well protected and well armed APC who could provide support to both armored and infantry division. initially ordered at 10,000 vehicles, the Hispano-Suiza company was just not having the capacity to built the APC, but was having relation. as Hispano-Suiza was one of the most renown weapons builder for the French army and navy, but also exported in quantity their armament all over the world, they could find a way to built the APC.

after analysis of the trial, the order was reduced to 2.800 due to many shortcoming, and the HS.30 was to be built by Leyland Motors in the United Kingdom, the rest by Henschel and Hanomag in Germany. at the end Hispano-Suiza only received compensation for the development of the HS.30 and no more.

the HS.30 had a lot of design problem, the first was the initial design propose a 10 tons tank with good mobility due to the 200 hp engine, but the increase of armor to 30mm on the front and 20mm on the size had plagued a lot the mobility, reducing the speed as well, initially intended to work with the M41 walkerbulldog, it was at the introduction having the same power/weight ration, but it was soon working with the Leopard 1 who was much more mobile and the HS.30 could just not fallow. but the most obvious design fail was the rear door to embark the troop was literrally blocked by engines related compartment making the troop have to jump in and out from the roof hatch of the passenger compartment. the rear door was them pretty much just a decoy. serial other design problem was affecting the maintenance and reliability. a total of 2.176 SPz HS.30 was built in all their variants.

 

despite all of it, the HS.30 served in the German Army for a bit more than 20 years. from 1960 to the 80s. it was replaced by the Marder IFV from 1974 and the last variants of the SPz Hs.30 was retired a few years later. about 20 SPz HS.30 was send to Peru but most of them was either scrapped or used as gunnery target. a few lucky survived in the hand of museum or private collector.

 

 

 

firepower

Spoiler

 

despite of the look of it, the Spz HS.30 do not have the Rh 202 20mm auto-cannon. it was not yet into service (and not even been developed at all). it have the French HS.820 who was using the same cartridge as the Rh-202.

the french auto-cannon would be no less good. with a high rate of fire, a good penetration and excellent elevation, this vehicles main armament would not lack of versatility. sure it would have difficulty to deal with some heavy armor, but for all the rest, this tank will do it all well

 

the gun is mounted in a fully rotation turret with an elevation of -20°/+75° giving no blind spot in the battlefield. this tank have 2000 rounds carried making it a much better suited vehicles for a fight than is his reccon counterpart, the SPz 11-2

weapon of type Auto-cannon, designed by Hispano-Suiza to replace the HS 404

 

very performing, and very appreciated, the HS 820 chamber longer rounds over the HS 404 and have a much higher velocity and fire rate. this weapon was capable to be belt-feed, drum freed or magazine feed. it was used as much against ground target than it was for air-target. it was very commonly used for IFV vehicles. it was bought by Oerlikon who renamed it Oerlikon KAD.

 

Weight: 66 kg

Magazine: 60 rounds  (or belt)

barrel caliber : unknown

rounds size: 20 x 139 mm

Rate of fire: 1000 min

practical range: 1500m (against arial target)

 

ammo

Hide contents

DM43 (HVAP-T)

standard AP round made with steel and a tungsten core. it is the same as used in the RH 202

 

 

• projectile weight : 112 g

• Velocity : 1100 m/sec

 

penetration (in-game & estimated)

 

• 52 mm at 100 meter, angle 0°
• 37 mm at 500 meter, angle 0°
• 24 mm at 1 000 meter, angle 0°
• 15 mm at 1 500 meter, angle 0°

 

 

RIA (APHEI)

standard multi-purpose rounds used for the HS-820. this round was ideal for light armored vehicles, infantry and aircraft.

 

• projectile weight : 120 g

• Velocity : 1100 m/sec

• explosive : 4.5 g (type Hexal)

 

penetration (reported)

• 50 mm at 100 meter, angle 0°

 

Penetration (estimated)

• 43 mm at 100 meter, angle 0°
• 30 mm at 500 meter, angle 0°
• 19 mm at 1 000 meter, angle 0°

 

 

DM31A1 (HE-I)

standard 20mm round in services in the 50s in Germany

 

• projectile weight : 120 g

• Velocity : 1050 m/sec

• explosive : 10 g (type Hexal)

 

 

 

 

 

Mobility

Spoiler

powered by a Rolls-Royce B81 Mk 80F 8-cylinder petrol providing 220/235 hp, the power-weight was initially intended to be 20 hp/tons. turned out the extra weight of the additional armor had reduced the power/weight ration to 15.3 hp tons. the 14.6 tons tank was rather slow in off road, with a effective speed of about 20 km/h, it was having difficulty to fallow the tanks like it was suppose to do. but this speed was only caused by the care from the driver to save the suspension. the vehicles could easily reach 30 km/h off road if they wouldn't care about the suspension (like in a game where those thing do not break unless you hit a wall) on the road the speed could reach 58 km/h with time. the fuel consumption was also very high due to the overweight.

 

protection

Spoiler

designed to fight along side of the tanks and support the infantry, the SPz HS.30 is lightly but well protected against small calibers.. been an APC/IFV, the SPz HS.30 is not suited to be hit by anti-tank rounds, but it still have good protection against HMG and some auto-cannon. wich is something welcome in the intended BR where many tanks have 12.7mm as AA gun.

protected by 30mm or armor on the front at 45° angle it can easily take some 20mm hit. the side protected by 20mm of vertical armor could at least offer a relative protection against HMG and complete protection against small arms.

the tank can also escape some risky encounter with his 8x smoke grenade launchers on the front of the hull. theoretically ti should give 2 launching of smoke screen.

 

Specifications
Mass	14.6 tonnes
Length	5.56 m (18 ft 3 in)
Width	2.54 m (8 ft 4 in)
Height	1.85 m (6 ft 1 in)
Crew	3
Passengers	5
Armor	30 mm at 45°
Main armament	20 mm HS 820 autocannon 2,000 rounds
Secondary armament	7.62 mm MG3 machine gun
Engine	Rolls-Royce B81 Mk 80F 8-cylinder petrol 220 hp (164 kW)
Power/weight	15.3 hp/tonne
Suspension	Torsion bar, three bogie, five road wheels
Operational range	270 km (170 mi)
Maximum speed	58 km/h (36 mph)

 

due to the high elevation, this tank could be a decent SPAA, it would be at least very treating the enemy in the sky around. but it remain a APC/IFV. it would be a good light tank for the mid tier. despite the R3-T20-FA been recently increased to BR 4.3, i believe the SPz HS.30 is better protection, firepower and mobility even if it is a tracked vehicles. it do have much more ammo than the R3-T20-FA. as the R3-T20-FA could easily be changed to get the BR 5.0 where i believe it would be more appropriated, the SPz HS.30 could be good at a BR of 4.7 to 5.3, where the heavy tanks get less common in the other nation but more common in the German one. Heavy tank would be the Nemesis of the SPz HS.30, but the medium, light and air target should be possible to fight. with the French EBR and many other light armored vehicles getting more and more common in the battlefield, the SPz HS.30 would fair very well against them. and revenge bombing would not be without fighting back. when bored, the SPz HS.30 would be as good SPAA as any SPAA until the radar. it is also a logical predecessor to the Marder 1

 

also check the similar and related vehicles

 

source

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/West_Germany/Schutzenpanzer-Lang-HS.30.php

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schützenpanzer_Lang_HS.30

https://old.weaponsystems.net/weaponsystem/CC03 - HS-30.html

https://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.php?armor_id=420

http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/bw_spz_lg_hs30-a.htm

Edited July 28, 2021 by CaID

[ItssLuBu 1,803]

Approved and open for discussion. 

[blockhaj 3,560]

The standard SPz lg 12-3 is a bit too problematic in its standard form (#nomorerrthreettwenty), however there was a dedicated anti tank version, the "Schützenpanzer, lang, Typ 12-3, mit 106 mm Leichtgeschütz M40A1" (SPz lg 12-3, LGs M40A1), which featued a 106 mm M40A1 recoilless rifle on the back.

[blockhaj 3,560]

Also the poll features the wrong vehicle.

[CaID 8,996]

46 minutes ago, blockhaj said:

The standard SPz lg 12-3 is a bit too problematic in its standard form (#nomorerrthreettwenty), however there was a dedicated anti tank version, the "Schützenpanzer, lang, Typ 12-3, mit 106 mm Leichtgeschütz M40A1" (SPz lg 12-3, LGs M40A1), which featued a 106 mm M40A1 recoilless rifle on the back.

 

since the R3 T20 FA & Marder A1 proven to be extremly good, i do not think this tank would be "problematic"

 

and for the anti-tank version, there is already a suggestion for it.

[blockhaj 3,560]

2 minutes ago, CaID said:

 

since the R3 T20 FA & Marder A1 proven to be extremly good, i do not think this tank would be "problematic"

 

and for the anti-tank version, there is already a suggestion for it.

Extremely good doesnt mean its not problematic. The standard HS.30 would just be another cold war vehicle facing WW2 era vehicles.

[CaID 8,996]

42 minutes ago, blockhaj said:

Extremely good doesnt mean its not problematic. The standard HS.30 would just be another cold war vehicle facing WW2 era vehicles.

i would think the BR would be closer to early coldwar era. as the R3 T20 should be raise to at least BR 5.0 to be fair. the Marder A1 is already deadly against air target and interrresting against ground targets. making me believe the BR could go at 5.3

 

it's still much better than the BR of vehicles from cold war like the ASU-57 or Strv 74.

there is a good dozen vehicles of cold war in the low rank. that one would at least be with the late WW2 vehicles who will not be much bother by this one on the battlefield

the mobility is also not so good, making it more of a vehicles to counter to flanker and light tank like the EBR, BT-7, R3-T20-FA or even sd.Kfz.234/2 than a flanker on his own. it is not a so speedy tank even if it would not be far behind.

 

the addition of the SPz 11-2 and/or SPz 12-3 in the main tree would also open the way to a re-organization of the tree with the purpose to add some light tank and armored car.

surch as

Sd.Kfz 231

Sd.Kfz 222

Panzer I ausf C

VK 16.02 Leopard

SP.I.C

SPz II Luchs.

 

it would only need to move a few existing vehicles around to fill the rank, such as the Pz 35 & 38, Sd.Kfz 234/2, Marder 1A and M41A1. you will get a whole new line who could offer more flexibility to support the German vehicles in all rank and increase the player survivability and give the lower half a better gameplay, vehicles such as the Tiger 1H would get much more value if there was some vehicles with them to cover their weakness, allowing them to focus to fight against tanks and force the enemy to use different tactic to deal with the German. this would highly improve the gameplay and fun for the german tree.

Edited July 28, 2021 by CaID

[eleks12 1,079]

+1 

[Stuhlfleisch 3,762]

Would love to see it ingame! +1 

[Wolf_89 2,525]

As long as its not below 6.0. Preferably 7.0 or higher.

Not a fan of modernish vehicles in WW2 BRs.

[SchwerPanzer 40]

On 28/07/2021 at 14:37, blockhaj said:

The standard SPz lg 12-3 is a bit too problematic in its standard form (#nomorerrthreettwenty), however there was a dedicated anti tank version, the "Schützenpanzer, lang, Typ 12-3, mit 106 mm Leichtgeschütz M40A1" (SPz lg 12-3, LGs M40A1), which featued a 106 mm M40A1 recoilless rifle on the back.

Yeah this would be more interesting to see. We don't have any autocannon/spg combos in-game yet.

[AspandaIV 376]

+1 but only if the 20mm is combined with the 106mm recoilless rifle and Germany isn't missing much since they have plenty of vehicles that were only equipped with the HS.820/Rh202 to choose from (e.g SPz 11-2 Kurz, Wiesel I Mk20)

[woodruff42 9]

there were two prototype versions with TOW ATGMS aswell

Edit: the source of these three images is Waffen-Arsenal Band 124 Panzerjäger der Bundeswehr by Wolfgang Schneider and Lars Ukerwitz

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by woodruff42

[Zev_Winters 313]

The recoilless version makes a lot more sense. Not sure of a good BR for it, maybe 7.0?

[HerrSektor 3,840]

the SP1C, the SP11-2, the SP12-3 with 20mm and the one with the 106mm RR... all of them highly needed

[Milocat 4,857]

+1 for all variants as long as the autocannon one doesn't get too low of a BR.

[Yontzee 1,675]

As with other vehicles I’ve commented on, no reason not to see this in-game with the new Type 87 ARV. Especially since this will sit lower in the tree. Hope to see the OG in-game!  +1

[Wolf_89 2,525]

On 29/07/2021 at 00:39, CaID said:

VK 16.02 Leopard

But that one wasn't even made. Do you want them to add paper vehicle?

Or do you have proof that it existed?

[CaID 8,996]

10 hours ago, Wolf_89 said:

But that one wasn't even made. Do you want them to add paper vehicle?

Or do you have proof that it existed?

 

i agree it wasn't finished, but i think the tank was advanced enough to considered as built

[Wolf_89 2,525]

On 20/09/2021 at 02:25, CaID said:

 

i agree it wasn't finished, but i think the tank was advanced enough to considered as built

But thats not the VK.16.02?.

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2-german-prototypes/gefechtsaufklarer-leopard-vk16-02/

Spoiler

Around the internet this tank is claimed to be the Leopard; it is not. These photos are of Panzer II Ausf.L Luchs V29, which was modified with a wooden superstructure and Praga diesel engine. Source
Originally published on August 21, 2016

And if you compare the VK 16.02 and this one. You will see that they aren't even close to each other. 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Wolf_89

[CaID 8,996]

58 minutes ago, Wolf_89 said:

Thats not teh VK.16.02.

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2-german-prototypes/gefechtsaufklarer-leopard-vk16-02/

Hide contents

Around the internet this tank is claimed to be the Leopard; it is not. These photos are of Panzer II Ausf.L Luchs V29, which was modified with a wooden superstructure and Praga diesel engine. Source
Originally published on August 21, 2016

And if you compare the VK 16.02 and this one. You will see that they aren't even close to each other. 

my bad, got misleaded by some bad source.

 

if it wasn't build then it would be removed from the list. the Puma sd.kfz 234/2 is still doing good enough to be rank 3. his BR could also be raised to 3.7 where it would be more logical to have it. the spz 11-2 and 12-3 could fallow the Puma in rank 3

[Wolf_89 2,525]

21 hours ago, CaID said:

my bad, got misleaded by some bad source.

 

if it wasn't build then it would be removed from the list. the Puma sd.kfz 234/2 is still doing good enough to be rank 3. his BR could also be raised to 3.7 where it would be more logical to have it. the spz 11-2 and 12-3 could fallow the Puma in rank 3

I to thought it was the VK 16.02 for some time. But sadly its not. Wish they had build the VK 16.02. Its a really good looking model.

And for a long time. I thought the turret from Sd.kfz 234/2 Puma was the same as the one that was supposed VK 16.02.

But apparently they aren't the same turret. But same style.

[Ghostmaxi 873]

Off topic but the turrets could have been build and then rebuild for the 234/2.

[hienapunk 1,065]

Objectively this thing is trash.

 

Subjectively it has a place in the tech tree and in my heart +1

[Billygoatunicorn 178]

On 19/09/2021 at 19:25, CaID said:

 

i agree it wasn't finished, but i think the tank was advanced enough to considered as built

As offbrand as it is for me to say this, I would actually be relatively okay with this tank in War Thunder. Its very familiar, extremely recognizable as a purebred German tank, uses parts that are verifiable when checking specs like armamant, tracks. And it's pretty easy to judge by taking everything we know about the tank currently, german tank development, and the like. If it's done right, I feel i'd be generally okay with it in game given that it didn't outperform the Chaffee in mobility. Although, I would want to see Gaijins homework on their work, I'd want the Luchs in the game first, as this was supposed to replace it, and we'll see where it goes from there I guess. oh yeah, and i just wanna say, that's def not the Leopard turret, considering it looks definitely like a Pz II. turret, (perhaps a prototype Luchs turret) and even if it's not, it looks nothing  like the one in the blueprints, and it  couldn't hold a 50mm that far left anyway.