Why is PTL02 8.0?

[llSolitairell@psn 5,730]

Just now, Renamed56309 said:

I know one thing, when playing with T-72A I was penned regularly through my UFP so I'm sure it can and will happen.

 

I don't care about anecdotes.

[MotorolaCRO 756]

1 minute ago, llSolitairell@psn said:

I don't care about anecdotes.

I don't care about your perfect scenario, stuff like that happened and will happen to a lot of people. T-72A's UFP isn't immune in a live match. Yet another PA warrior 

[Savanne 455]

43 minutes ago, llSolitairell@psn said:

 

T-72 Glacis is sloped @ 68

 

Pretty sure that those 16mm of difference wont matter much anyway. 90% of the time you will still get penetrated.

 

2 hours ago, llSolitairell@psn said:

 

No it can't, and saying it should be 8.7 is proof have neither played 8.7 recently and certainly not the PTL

Certainly i have been playing with an IS-4M and T-10M against the PTL02. And you did not.
Neither of those 2 tanks have ANY chance against a PTL02 or WMA301 regardless of range and map type.
Post WW2 vehicles, with no NVD at all, facing lolpen APFSDS with LRF and 2nd gen thermals makes sense, right?

[idiot400 664]

its so gratifying, Chinese vehicles are being called OP, we're in the big leagues now! imo PTL should be 8.3 and wma 8.7, not higher, as they are held back the awful gun depression and reverse speed. 

[MotorolaCRO 756]

5 minutes ago, Savanne said:

Certainly i have been playing with an IS-4M and T-10M

Those things are in a bad state even without uptiers, and it's icing on the cake when you meet a wheelie boy with thermals, LRF and a dart while driving them.

 

6 minutes ago, idiot400 said:

its so gratifying, Chinese vehicles are being called OP, we're in the big leagues now! imo PTL should be 8.3 and wma 8.7, not higher, as they are held back the awful gun depression and reverse speed. 

In downtiers they are more than OP. In my opinion anything with a dart, LRF and thermals shouldn't be below 8.7, it's just too strong.

[torderxd 81]

3 hours ago, idiot400 said:

its so gratifying, Chinese vehicles are being called OP, we're in the big leagues now! imo PTL should be 8.3 and wma 8.7, not higher, as they are held back the awful gun depression and reverse speed. 

 

3 hours ago, Renamed56309 said:

In downtiers they are more than OP. In my opinion anything with a dart, LRF and thermals shouldn't be below 8.7, it's just too strong.

 

3 hours ago, Savanne said:

Neither of those 2 tanks have ANY chance against a PTL02 or WMA301 regardless of range and map type.
Post WW2 vehicles, with no NVD at all, facing lolpen APFSDS with LRF and 2nd gen thermals makes sense, right?

Well it looks like we are all right that the PTL02 should go up.

 

Although I should clarify that the difference between WMA301 and PTL02 is the barrel and its ammo.
The WMA301 has a worse arrow, but it has tandem and HE sync. 
On the other hand, the PTL02 has a much better penetration arrow.

 

 

Having the WMA301 in my opinion I can say it should be 8.7.
When I get the Rooikat 105 (I have the Mk.1D) I will give my opinion on it if it really deserves the 8.7 and if there are doubts about the swing, I will add the DM33.

 

[idiot400 664]

3 minutes ago, torderxd said:

 

 

Well it looks like we are all right that the PTL02 should go up.

 

Although I should clarify that the difference between WMA301 and PTL02 is the barrel and its ammo.
The WMA301 has a worse arrow, but it has tandem and HE sync. 
On the other hand, the PTL02 has a much better penetration arrow.

 

 

Having the WMA301 in my opinion I can say it should be 8.7.
When I get the Rooikat 105 (I have the Mk.1D) I will give my opinion on it if it really deserves the 8.7 and if there are doubts about the swing, I will add the DM33.

 

i feel that PTL should still be lower as WMA has lots of flexibility with the wider variety of ammo choices that you can use.

[torderxd 81]

13 minutes ago, idiot400 said:

i feel that PTL should still be lower as WMA has lots of flexibility with the wider variety of ammo choices that you can use.

I don't really know, but using the M26 or BMP-1 as an example, they seem to go hand in hand in the same BR.

HE is not a reason for balancing
The Tandem YES, but it has a worse APFSDS.

Edited January 3, 2022 by torderxd

[idiot400 664]

1 minute ago, torderxd said:

I don't really know, but using the M26 or BMP-1 as an example, they seem to go hand in hand in the same BR.

HE is not a reason for balancing
The Tandem is, but it has a worse APFSDS.

the atgm is great for anti helicopter purposes, more effective than the he shell imo 

[Savanne 455]

14 hours ago, idiot400 said:

its so gratifying, Chinese vehicles are being called OP, we're in the big leagues now! imo PTL should be 8.3 and wma 8.7, not higher, as they are held back the awful gun depression and reverse speed. 

Yes, because having -4* gun depression is making it so much worse vehicle than the russian tanks, which have exactly the same amount of gun depression. Or even worse reverse speed.

Oh, and the russian turret traverse is actually the most horrible one in the game. 7*/s is laughable compared to 25*/s.

[MotorolaCRO 756]

1 hour ago, Savanne said:

Yes, because having -4* gun depression is making it so much worse vehicle than the russian tanks, which have exactly the same amount of gun depression. Or even worse reverse speed.
Oh, and the russian turret traverse is actually the most horrible one in the game. 7*/s is laughable compared to 25*/s.

Yeah, a lot of Russian tanks are held back by those things but I don't see them being any lower than it's counterparts.

[TheKatyusHATman 1,265]

2 hours ago, Renamed56309 said:

Yeah, a lot of Russian tanks are held back by those things but I don't see them being any lower than it's counterparts.

cuz players say "rUsSiAn bIAs", players who think t-72b(89) is much better than leo2a4, t-54 better than m60, bmp-2 better than bradley, it-1 better than m901 or rakjpz HOT ect.

and the thing is russia dont have a single wheeled fast vehicle with a large caliber gun at all, their best option is 2s25 at 9.3 and even that dont have thermals

[MotorolaCRO 756]

1 hour ago, TheKatyusHATman said:

players who think t-72b(89) is much better than leo2a4

Imagine a 10.0 MBT without thermals in the current meta 

T-72B (89) certainly has some positives but 2A4 should be much easier to play.

 

1 hour ago, TheKatyusHATman said:

t-54 better than m60

I can't think of a worse medium at 7.3 than T-54, that thing lacks behind others in every single thing except firepower. I would say a lot of Russian tanks could go 0.3 lower and wouldn't be even close to OP.

 

To stay on topic, I think most wheeled vehicles should go up at least 0.3 BR.

[TheKatyusHATman 1,265]

31 minutes ago, Renamed56309 said:

T-72B (89) certainly has some positives but 2A4 should be much easier to play.

you cant imagine, the leopards mobility makes it soo much better than fully mobility upgraded t-72b(89), and nato mains totaly ignore this fact that russians lack of mobility completly reduce their armors effectivenes

and since i just researched and purchased t-72b3 i started playing it a little along with t-90a and personaly i think t-72b3 should get the UBH modification from the start, i certanly dont wanna play a stock t-72b(89) again but at 10.7 and twice as expensive modification RP cost

 

35 minutes ago, Renamed56309 said:

I can't think of a worse medium at 7.3 than T-54, that thing lacks behind others in every single thing except firepower. I would say a lot of Russian tanks could go 0.3 lower and wouldn't be even close to OP

im king od an old guard so to me t-54s are all 7.7, and t-54s only positive is the aphe (or apcbc) shells what allows then to one shot almost every penetrating shots, bot to something like m48 or m60 t-54s need to aim for weak spots (frontaly) while pattons dont need to due to their heat-fs spam

 

38 minutes ago, Renamed56309 said:

To stay on topic, I think most wheeled vehicles should go up at least 0.3 BR.

depends on the vehicles and annoyance lvl, but generaly every wheeled vehicle with thermals and apfsds should go up to at least 8.7, like centauro when it recived apfsds, i think it was pretty ok with apds and heat-fs only at 8.0, but thermals and laser rangefinder made it very good, and people say centauro has just above avarage mobility compared to MBTs, if centauro is fine at 8.7 then chinese should too

[llSolitairell@psn 5,730]

On 03/01/2022 at 19:24, idiot400 said:

its so gratifying, Chinese vehicles are being called OP, we're in the big leagues now! imo PTL should be 8.3 and wma 8.7, not higher, as they are held back the awful gun depression and reverse speed. 

 

they should both be 8.3, the WMA isn't enough of an improvement over the PTL to warrant it, other than eliminating the shell dispersion issues.

[DoneDirtCheap 370]

I agree that PTL should not face 7.0 tanks at all, but honestly that isn't the PTL's fault but the flawed BR system as it is! 

There's a huuuge performance gap between 1 full BRs,  especially around this BR- range, 7.0-9.0/9.3. With atgms and thermals becoming more common here and there...

PTL02 should be 8.3 and would be fine there. Would still face 7.3 ofc, as long as BR spread is 1 full BR, but that goes for every vehicle in this game.

KV1E/B or Sherman 105 in full downtiers for example! It's not like for example an XM-1 won't stomp 8.3s in a full downtier either...

 

And yeah, as said elsewhere...lots of Chinese tanks are overtiered so PTL sort of compensate a bit for all the other ones!

Edited January 18, 2022 by DoneDirtCheap

[NAYEONnaise 1,936]

PTL02 is fine where it is, bring it higher and it will be underperforming. The overall sluggishness compared to other MGS vehicles, coupled with the nonexistent armor (even .50 can pen the front at ~500m) and terrible backward mobility contributes to such.

 

For me, I would rather decompress the 7.0 BR range especially with the heavies that have invalidated armor thanks to their frequent tendency to face postwar rounds even lower than their own BR. Sure, we should not base on era, but rather, what suits the meta.

 

A hard-to-swallow pill, but 7.0 and higher heavies such as IS-3, T-32, and IS-4M, all which fire WW2 era rounds too, need to go lower, especially for they were built more to counter latewar German armor such as that of the Tiger 2s and Panthers. Meanwhile, heavies specifically built for the postwar era such as M103, Conqueror, IS-7, Obj. 279, and T-10M can stay at their BRs, for they are capable of firing postwar rounds, have armor that can withstand such rounds, and react faster (have stabilizer, faster turret drive, better mobility, fast firing guns, etc)

 

This way, the problem of WW2-latewar era, or tanks that came "too late to see combat in WW2" of having laughable armor and resulting dead weight can be alleviated, if not removed. For me, this is the main reason why the PTL02 is seen to be overperforming.

 

Edit: what's so funny? Do you beg to differ? We don't need trolls here.

Edited January 19, 2022 by NAYEONnaise

[MAKEthemSUPPER 103]

No, it is not fine where it is. It's literally the centauro problem but with a dart and gen 2 thermals.

It needs to go up. How far up is anyone's guess, and in my opinion I would stick it at 8.7, but 8.3 as a step to see how things go would suffice.

[KilianL 865]

Having played both PTL02 and WMA i agree that PTL02 should move to 8.3 and WMA to 8.7 and then re assess how they perform.

 

if someone cares they can check my stats on them, I am at work right now, I think i overperformed with them lol

[Wilhuff_Tarkin_ 467]

I'll just copypaste my response from different thread that seems relevent here.

 

At this point in time yeah, with all Bundeswehraboos in their Radcancerwagon 90s and Kpz.ubermench 70 and banalepanzer 57 you might as well just add anything to any TT. 

 

Don't get me wrong France isn't competetive by any stretch of imagination but adding more xxx-prototypes only increases the everexpanding powercreep. First we got MBT-70 as an excuse to balance T-64s which back in a day on this forum was treated as undefeatable mosnter. As it turns out a Leopard 1A1 or A5 with thermals and deacent APFSDST can drive circles around T-64/72s. Not all nations have as many prototypes as USA, USSR or Germany. Some nations will be powercreped into oblivion. Japan, China, Sweden even Britain. Too many powerfull vehicles have creapt into 9.0 and below. 

 

XM-1s, Radwag 90, MBT/KPZ 70, M48 Super, M1128, XM803, HSTV-L, Leo2K, CV90-105, Centauros could all go up to 10.0 giving 9.0 some room to breathe. 

 

9.0 should represent roughly the period of late 70s BEFORE the introduction of 3rd generations of MBT. Just like 2nd generation completely outclasses 1st generation. T-54 is outclassed by Leopard 1A5 but pales in comparison to T-80U. Most nations had deacent 2nd gen MBTs in late 70s or later upgraded. But when you introduce fast, speedy TD, IFV or Light Tanks from late 80/ early 90 into that mix you create a situation where Tanks have to fight light vehicles with similar armament and optics but much faster in realm where armour is irrelevent anyway. Tank that can get to position faster, react faster due to better turret travers/elevation, has thermals and stabilizer will win most of the time.

 

Most recent example of mine. Just got PTL-02 (Chinese 6x6 105mm TD with stabilizer, apfsdst and thermals) i use it primerily with my ZTZ-96/96A at 9.7 and superisingly it does just fine while being 8.0 for no reason. Could very well be 9.0 or higher. If I played in at 8.0 and get down tierd agains German 7.0/7.3 I would be better than anything they might have exept in pure armour which desn't matter in this vehicle anyway. Many players take their Light vehicles and cannot perform the simple manouver of flanking, they play their lights as if theiy were heavys or mediums and than wonder why they loose and dumb balance system lowers their BR cuz of bad win rates and the cycle of stupid continues. Why has WT community become so stubborn and ignorant so they expect everything handed to them on silver plate. Learn to play, improvise adapt overcome take advantage of your vehicles characteristics instead of endlessly complaining on forums and ingame chats how this or that is overpowered. 

 

When I wrote couple years back that Leopard 1A5 will be a good counter to T-64A everyone laughed, now both sit at the same 9.0 BR and T-64A is consider underperforming.

[Wilhuff_Tarkin_ 467]

On 04/01/2022 at 17:32, TheKatyusHATman said:

depends on the vehicles and annoyance lvl, but generaly every wheeled vehicle with thermals and apfsds should go up to at least 8.7, like centauro when it recived apfsds, i think it was pretty ok with apds and heat-fs only at 8.0, but thermals and laser rangefinder made it very good, and people say centauro has just above avarage mobility compared to MBTs, if centauro is fine at 8.7 then chinese should too

I couln't agree with you more. Gaijin in their infinite wisdom and pro-Russian bias made their own tanks so bad in their game is laughable.

 

T-64 first produced in 1963, Leopard 1 first produced in 1965. Let that sink in.

 

Soviets were far far far ahead of the game when it came to armoured vehicles designs. Since IS-3, T-54 Soviets had consistently great designs withs some hiccups here and there (looking at you T-10). Most Soviet tanks have to fight against tanks generation older. T-55 were running the streets a decade before Europanzer materialized as Leopard 1/AMX-30. I am not suggesting that introduction dates mean that tank would be fully operational in large numers the same year but it shows you technological capabilities and doctrine of a nation in question. Soviet tank tech tree has all the rights to be dominant as they were in real life just like US air force has been dominant in real life since WW2. Lets at least make soviet tanks fight NATO tanks of their own generation. T-54/55 should fight M46/47/48 where their lack of mobility and depression can be offset by stabilzers(T-54A/B, T-55) and decant kinetic protection , not that you gonna get shot by anything other than HEAT-FS and APDS anyway.

 

Sure we need balance otherwise, player count will plummit and that means finacial loss for Gaijin and there is nothing outrageous about it. The're a company they have to deliver a product and make money which I am more than wiling to give them if they deserve it in my opinion.

 

First generation MBTs and support vehicles

T-54(1947), T-54(1949), T-54(1951), T-54A, T-54B, T-55 + MCLOS ATGM carriers VS M47(French, German, US), M48, all the SS.11 carriers, all 106mm carriers, AMX-13s, EBRs, Centurions 

 

Secound Generation MBTs support vehicles

 

T-62, T-64A,T-72A + BMP-1 and SACLOS ATGMs VS Leopard 1, A1, A2, A3, A4, A5, AMX-30, M60 A1,A3, Chieftains, Type 74, +so many vehicles with TOW, HOT, Milan, Marders, Warriors.

 

Third Generation MBTs  support vehicles

 

T-80, T-80U, T-72B3, T-90A, + modern IFVs VS Abrams, Leopard 2, Leclerc, Type 90, Challenger, Ariete + Bradley, Type89, Puma IFV, EBRC Jaguar 

 

Not to mention Spaags, SAMs, Helicopter, CAS and other factors alike. Most loses can be attributed to full teams of One-and-doners throwing a temper tantrum everytime the get killed in their Leopard 2A6 expecting to be impenetrable and playing dumb, getting killed and leaving. Many games can be won simply by out-spawning enemies and keeping control over points.

 

Gaijin made one big mistake with Top tier  at the very begining when T-54s ruled the games and most peoples who played the game at the time remember how truly overpowered they were, especially against conventional weapons when most players did not learn to use HEAT. It really was a misery to play the game at that time. But no nation since than has ever been close to that level of power with the exeption of maby German 9.0 in recent years. Only difference being their power do not rely on armour but reaction time, mobility and firepower. German TT can do fine without it's dumb prototypes, their real life TT vehicles are good enough, even great sometimes but german TT players simply won't use tham correctly.

 

CL-13mk5 was the first time they decided to purposefully break the game to incress player count in specific TT by adding something overpowered by every measurable statistic. And since than every season they brake the game to add something overpowered for that season as a quick cashgrab. Remember F-100 or T-2 or R3 T-20 or AUBL/HVG or Object 279 or PT-76-57 more recently. Yes it makes money but it also alienates and frustrates much more players in the process. Im curious how many players quit the game prematurely because they had to face B1 Ter or some Autocannon Puma at low tier. PTL-02 is a Chinese Centauro. Instead of adding more contemporary 8.0 vehicles to buff lineup they add one wich overperform to average out winrates.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Wilhuff_Tarkin_

[SneedSellsFeed 110]

Penetration isn't the only thing that matters. The PTL's 'top' round penetrates 381mm, sure - but it has a much lower post pen, it does very little damage and barely spalls.

It's relatively slow and the armor can be penetrated with 50cals. I can honestly see why it's 8.0 as while it could be uptiered, most players can't manage to do so well with it even at 8.0 (which is why it hasn't been moved up already in the first place).

[MagicalMethod 1,768]

I'll throw in my two cents.

 

Never played the vehicle but just facing it with my 7.3 israeli lineup is an absolute nightmare. 9/10 times my heat-fs refuses to do more then kill the driver. And god forbid if it's a bigger map with lots of folliage. I get spotted from 1,5km away through all manners of shrubbery or trees, and then killed because it get's LRF. While it often doesnt kill me in one shot it doesnt matter because i've no idea what is shooting me from where. And when by chance i do outspot it 9/10 times i miss it by 5-50 meters because while i consider myself good at eyeballing it i am not often able to hit it on first shot.

 

Facing it in M48s is a f*cking nightmare most of the time, because it can outrun you, outspot you and outgun you, lack of armor be damned. And i've been frustated by these things to the point where if i am in a uptier, see a big open map and the chinese against me, i just leave. Because when i do stay it allmost allways kills even despite me driving something as small as an AML-90 and i just cant even see the damn thing.

[tiger7742 260]

On 04/01/2022 at 03:31, MotorolaCRO said:

In my opinion anything with a dart, LRF and thermals shouldn't be below 8.7, it's just too strong.

allow me to introduce the M41D

[Lairy_Lemur 764]

Because ₽₽₽₽₽