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F-4E-58 (1983)


S3b5
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115 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like to see the F-4E-58 (1983), or similar, implemented?

    • Yes, as a tech tree vehicle
      100
    • Yes, as a premium
      10
    • No
      5
  2. 2. What BR should it be?

    • 11.0
      24
    • 11.3
      60
    • 11.7
      27
    • I don't want it added.
      4
  3. 3. Should the radar be "buffed" for balance purposes?

    • Yes, it needs a good radar to compete.
      40
    • No, it is ahistorical.
      71
    • I don't want it added.
      4
  4. 4. Is the stock loadout mentioned acceptable?

    • Yes
      95
    • No, it should have a different loadout when stock.
      16
    • I don't want it added.
      4
  5. 5. Should the aircraft model include CAA on its radar?

    • Yes
      81
    • No
      3
    • I don't want the aircraft at all.
      3


This is a submission for an F-4E late in its service life with either the USAF or the ANG. Operated until 1991 by the USAF, the F-4E was a very important milestone aircraft for the USAF. Even after more dedicated and improved fighter aircraft entered service, the F-4E soldiered on until it was replaced.

 

Background

The F-4E first reached the Southeast Asian theater in 1968, and would be credited with 21 MiG kills during the Vietnam War. Following the war, and the study of “what went wrong” in air combat during the war, new air superiority fighters would begin to be made for the USAF, the F-15A and F-16A. This left the F-4E without much of a place in the USAF, but nevertheless it would continue to be in service with the USAF. 

 

Zdov5M8ajrFo8EujSwhGSgNxvFXr1dw14X6vZ89O

F-4E at Ramstein Air Base, 1982

 

Several squadrons would retain their Phantoms while waiting for newer equipment. In Europe, the 52nd TFW would be given F-16s in 1978. Two Pacific squadrons didn’t receive new equipment, and kept their Phantoms, until 1989. The last active duty USAF squadron to replace their F-4Es, the 4th TFW, completed conversion to the F-15E in 1991.  

 

pmwiFvd68nMYC9dFNRPv9oXznr1e47CvOfAJpPd3

 

Most Phantoms taken from front line USAF squadrons were given to the USAF reserves or the Air National Guard. For the USAF reserves, only two squadrons would operate the F-4E. The 457th TFS received F-4Es in 1987, and the 704th TFS received F-4Es in 1989. Both squadrons would have them replaced by F-16Cs in 1991.

 

ONZlXRQNXkIsy4HcJe7JR5aizKiYLtp7ZofbqkgN KQEWBJxWn7PGzq0BosL1VmwYIRq_ctZ9pz6Ma8cv

F-4Es of the 457th TFS (left) and the 704th TFS (right)

 

F-4Es would start to be received by Air National Guard squadrons in 1985, but these had a relatively brief service life. The F-4E was used by the 110th TFS of the Missouri ANG, the 113th TFS of the Indiana ANG, the 141st TFS of the New Jersey ANG, the 163rd TFS of the Indiana ANG, and the 196th TFS of the Californian ANG. The last F-4E would leave ANG service in 1991. 

 

gGSLZNpHxv2-2Nti4SBEoc6mDJmRTJjAS_eb7Od9 jQHsa80Eu6MafkOXM71qY0h_OKIAdLlAflLliim6

F-4Es of the Missouri (left) and Indiana (right) ANGs. The Missouri ANG's F-4E is in the Euro-1 camoflauge.

 

CWwUlHLffybtDsHoDrnNKCOXC8x56PqL3a0CEaJB cErnwp1cLWaWthR8nel58VNT6lbaPODGogosXIR9
F-4Es of the New Jersey (left) and Californian (right) ANGs. The New Jersey ANG F-4E is in the Euro-1 camo and has an AIM-9L on its missile pylon.

 

Specifications

This is a Block 58 Phantom, and features all upgrades of previous blocks.

Introduced with Block 53 was the ability to use the AGM-65 and J79-GE-17C/-17E engines with low smoke combustors.

The J79-GE-17C/-17E has 11,870lbf (52.8kN) of thrust dry, and 17,900lbf (80kN) of afterburner thrust. These values are unchanged from the current F-4E. “Midas 4” upgrades for the gun were used as well, to help vent exhaust gases. Block 54 introduced high performance antenna and coaxial cables, and in Block 56 the new AN/ALR-46 RHAWS replaced the old AN/APR-36.

 

XLPZBXyK1BSkFG4l_g_jYqNsEuB7C8B7h6uriIkH

The Midas 4 upgrade, shown by the longer gun muzzle.

 

It could carry 1225 US gallons of internal fuel in self sealing fuel tanks, like the implemented one, and had a dry mass of 30,328lb (12,757kg).

 

The radar set of these era F-4s were the AN/APQ-120(V)-10/-11, which added a CAA mode. CAA, or Computer Automatic Acquisition, would help to filter out ground clutter and make aircraft below the Phantom easier to detect. From my understanding, it won't be easier to maintain radar lock, however, and this mode of tracking likely won't be reliable enough to guide any AIM-7s. To quote @Flame2512,

Quote

As the name suggests Computer Automatic Acquisition is only used for acquisition; it only does something in the few seconds between the pilot pressing the automatic acquisition button, and the radar locking on to  a target. It does not provide any benefit when the radar is in search mode or when the radar is in tracking mode, so I would not say it provides the radar with improved look-down performance. 

 

The flight manual lists the main benefit of CAA being that is is a faster form of automatic acquisition, with a lower chance of "spurious lock-ons" (the radar locking on to clutter). And you are right in that it says a computer is used to discriminate against clutter:

Spoiler

Cw6z1Bya0BCml72N9wGELBKEeg7DNzO9gg-7Dle1 muQ2oWuheRzwe9zFbBmxXRP6_9cWll5hQj8cboT4

 

To fully understand this we have to look at what the original Automatic Acquisition mode did. Prior to CAA the pilot had a few ways to lock-on to a target; the first was to manually identify the target on the radar screen (when the radar was in search mode) and lock-on to it by manually placing the lock-on symbol over the target and pressing a button. The other way was in boresight / caged mode where the radar is locked in a conical scan directly ahead. The pilot can then either manually identify and select the target (as before) or choose to use Automatic Acquisition. The Automatic Acquisition mode worked by starting at 900 ft range and working outwards until it found some sort of radar return at which point it would lock onto it. Obviously as there were no checks involved in this (it simply locked onto the first radar return it found) the original Automatic Acquisition mode was susceptible to locking on to ground clutter.

 

Computer Automatic Acquisition improved upon the original Automatic Acquisition mode significantly. To use it the pilot first selects one of three corridors (centre, left, or right) then presses Automatic Acquisition button. The radar rapidly scans the selected corridor and uses a computer to discount radar returns it thinks looks like ground clutter, before then locking onto the first return out of the ones it has left. This is what the manual is talking about when it says it a computer is used to discriminate against ground clutter.

 

CAA is obviously faster and more reliable than the original Automatic Acquisition mode (as stated in the manual), but it does not help you see the target in search mode or help your track the target once you have locked on. In addition if the radar return was visible in search mode the pilot could have used the manual lock on mode to achieve the same result, albeit with significantly more effort. The only situation in which CAA provides improved look down performance (as in being able to lock on to a target you otherwise wouldn't be able to) is when you are in a dogfight and wanting to use a form of automatic acquisition, where CAA is obviously far better than the original AA (both AA and CAA have a maximum rang of 9 km (5 nm / 30,000 ft) so are not able to be used against far away targets). Also in CAA mode the computer places a dynamic range limit on the radar whenever the antenna is pointing below the horizon in order to help limit clutter. So if the antenna is pointing down by 5° the maximum detection range is decreased to ~5km and if the antenna is pointing down by 10° the maximum detection range is decreased to less than 3 km.

Spoiler

TtJBSOYfowSimzsFtmId7Zl3SmCaCOWYVy2Fe5Bc

 

 

CAA mode would allow target detection at close ranges, possibly to slave Sidewinder missiles. It would be helpful in modes without icons for detecting targets, but may not be as useful as tracking targets. Only late models of the AN/APQ-120 would have it, such as the one suggested, the AN/APQ-120(V)-12.

 

Weaponry

The F-4E-58 was armed with an M61A1 20mm Vulcan, like previous variants.

As a reminder, this is a Phantom from 1983.

Being from 1983, available missiles/ordnance are:
 

A2A

IR

AIM-9J, produced from 1972 on.

AIM-9N, an upgraded AIM-9J with improved seeker performance. I am not sure how that would be implemented. Alternatively, a later AIM-9P such as the AIM-9P-3, which is more or less a slightly worse AIM-9L.

AIM-9L, produced from 1978 on.

 

SARH

AIM-7E-2, produced from 1969 on.

AIM-7F, produced from 1976 on.

AIM-7M, produced from 1982 on.

 

A2G

AGM-65D Maverick, achieved IOC in 1983. The Delta model replaced the seeker with an IR imaging system, doubling the practical firing range and making it able to be used in low-vis conditions.

AGM-62 Walleye (all)

AGM-45 Shrike

AGM-78 Standard ARM

GBU-10, 12, 14 and 15 (and associated imagers and targeting systems)

Mk.80 series of iron bombs

CBU.24 Cluster Bomb

 

Misc.

SUU-23/A M61A1 gunpod
GPU-5/A GAU-13/A gunpod

 

This would give it a good capability as a multirole, but it lacks a PD radar typical of other modern fighters at this time. As far as I know the USAF never refitted any F-4Es with PD radars for A2A.

 

A good stock loadout for this aircraft would be something like:
4x AIM-9J/P, 4x AIM-7E-2.

This is basically an F-4E at a higher BR but with unlockable capabilities that match that BR.

 

Conclusion

I believe this would be a good aircraft to add to the US tree, in a folder with the F-4E, to allow there to be a stop-gap between the USAF F-4Es and future F-15/F-16s. This would allow a USAF F-4 to have AIM-9Ls and compete with the USN’s F-4S fighters. At the same time, it would provide a good competitor for other countries’ top tier aircraft being introduced in the Winds of Change update.

 

Sources

Spoiler

Joe Baugher's compilation of information on the F-4E

 

Thrust of the J79 engine

Pg. 74, ref. 181. Information on how the low-smoke combustor works.

 

AIM-9L production date

AIM-7 production dates

 

Armament and available weapons

 

AIM-9L Manual

 

Armaments 

Included: AIM-9L, AIM-7M, AGM-45, AGM-78
For others, check table of contents

 

Edited by S3b5
new information about radar, and gunpods
  • Like 1
  • Upvote 5
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Although it will add another grind with almost no differences except new armaments, I want to see it in the game with sexy grey paint schemes! +1

 

and yes to it being in a folder with the F-4E.

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8 hours ago, MonkeyBussiness said:

date of introduction of a weapon doesn't mean that the aircraft at the same period could carry it , why would you spend money on a plane that's being retired ? that's why i think this plane didn't carry AIM-9/7M or AGM-78 ARM but only a manual from that year can tell us

 

sources updated.

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+1 I like this, the F-4 was still really important for both the USAF and the USN/USMC until the late 80s and that fact is not well understood by most, it took a few years for the next gen of US fighters such as the F-14/15/16 to be brought to full operational readiness and to be on strength in large numbers. I’d also like to have the current F-4E backdated to the early model from Vietnam and have this model added along side the Navy’s F-4S, at which point we can probably close the door on phantoms for good.

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On 22/03/2022 at 19:36, S3b5 said:

YmlOvdfbSmc7NfRWcfWWS6lzESm8TsnlsMmvS60B

The Midas 4 upgrade, shown by the longer gun muzzle

 

I don't think that is F-4E...

Quick search on Google shows that this aircraft in that picture is actually F-4G Wild Weasel which does not have cannon

c5342f315fcff5973319f32e6503544f.jpg

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14 hours ago, TyphoonCro said:

 

I don't think that is F-4E...

Quick search on Google shows that this aircraft in that picture is actually F-4G Wild Weasel which does not have cannon

c5342f315fcff5973319f32e6503544f.jpg

ah, lemme change the picture. thanks

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17 hours ago, warthogboy09 said:

Would agree it should be added. Though I wouldn't be surprised if they keep adding armaments to the current F-4E as weaponry improves. Adding a fictional radar is a no go though, it's part of what makes the F-4E a 4E. It's also more than serviceable without it.

 

 

I did some more digging, and I found this post. I'm trying to look for a manual or something to confirm it, and then I'll add it to the suggestion. I think that would be better than a fictional radar, but again, I am still trying to confirm it.

Also bringing this forum post, maybe we can ask the people there and see if we can get some info from them. I haven't had the chance to look too much so maybe they can tell us.

I also found this picture about CAA scan, but it's the only picture here and I'm looking for the rest of the document.

  TtJBSOYfowSimzsFtmId7Zl3SmCaCOWYVy2Fe5Bc

 

Edited by S3b5
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  • Suggestion Moderator

F-4E could also mount the 30mm GPU-5A gun pod. Worth adding to armament. +1

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3 hours ago, S3b5 said:

 

I did some more digging, and I found this post. I'm trying to look for a manual or something to confirm it, and then I'll add it to the suggestion. I think that would be better than a fictional radar, but again, I am still trying to confirm it.

Also bringing this forum post, maybe we can ask the people there and see if we can get some info from them. I haven't had the chance to look too much so maybe they can tell us.

I also found this picture about CAA scan, but it's the only picture here and I'm looking for the rest of the document.

  TtJBSOYfowSimzsFtmId7Zl3SmCaCOWYVy2Fe5Bc

 

From my understanding, CAA would not allow for better shoot down capability. It may make it more likely to initially acquire a target, but unlike the MTI modes for other radars, it will not persist for maintaining a lock. I think what would really be more beneficial would be better modeling of ground clutter as a whole, though that is a complex problem and would be a big ask. 

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9 hours ago, S3b5 said:

 

I did some more digging, and I found this post. I'm trying to look for a manual or something to confirm it, and then I'll add it to the suggestion. I think that would be better than a fictional radar, but again, I am still trying to confirm it.

Also bringing this forum post, maybe we can ask the people there and see if we can get some info from them. I haven't had the chance to look too much so maybe they can tell us.

I also found this picture about CAA scan, but it's the only picture here and I'm looking for the rest of the document.

  TtJBSOYfowSimzsFtmId7Zl3SmCaCOWYVy2Fe5Bc

 

 

Here's my understanding of CAA mode (from the thread you linked):

 

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On 22/03/2022 at 15:36, S3b5 said:

This is a submission for an F-4E late in its service life with either the USAF or the ANG. Operated until 1991 by the USAF, the F-4E was a very important milestone aircraft for the USAF. Even after more dedicated and improved fighter aircraft entered service, the F-4E soldiered on until it was replaced.

 

Background

The F-4E first reached the Southeast Asian theater in 1968, and would be credited with 21 MiG kills during the Vietnam War. Following the war, and the study of “what went wrong” in air combat during the war, new air superiority fighters would begin to be made for the USAF, the F-15A and F-16A. This left the F-4E without much of a place in the USAF, but nevertheless it would continue to be in service with the USAF. 

 

Zdov5M8ajrFo8EujSwhGSgNxvFXr1dw14X6vZ89O

F-4E at Ramstein Air Base, 1982

 

Several squadrons would retain their Phantoms while waiting for newer equipment. In Europe, the 52nd TFW would be given F-16s in 1978. Two Pacific squadrons didn’t receive new equipment, and kept their Phantoms, until 1989. The last active duty USAF squadron to replace their F-4Es, the 4th TFW, completed conversion to the F-15E in 1991.  

 

pmwiFvd68nMYC9dFNRPv9oXznr1e47CvOfAJpPd3

 

Most Phantoms taken from front line USAF squadrons were given to the USAF reserves or the Air National Guard. For the USAF reserves, only two squadrons would operate the F-4E. The 457th TFS received F-4Es in 1987, and the 704th TFS received F-4Es in 1989. Both squadrons would have them replaced by F-16Cs in 1991.

 

ONZlXRQNXkIsy4HcJe7JR5aizKiYLtp7ZofbqkgN KQEWBJxWn7PGzq0BosL1VmwYIRq_ctZ9pz6Ma8cv

F-4Es of the 457th TFS (left) and the 704th TFS (right)

 

F-4Es would start to be received by Air National Guard squadrons in 1985, but these had a relatively brief service life. The F-4E was used by the 110th TFS of the Missouri ANG, the 113th TFS of the Indiana ANG, the 141st TFS of the New Jersey ANG, the 163rd TFS of the Indiana ANG, and the 196th TFS of the Californian ANG. The last F-4E would leave ANG service in 1991. 

 

gGSLZNpHxv2-2Nti4SBEoc6mDJmRTJjAS_eb7Od9 jQHsa80Eu6MafkOXM71qY0h_OKIAdLlAflLliim6

F-4Es of the Missouri (left) and Indiana (right) ANGs. The Missouri ANG's F-4E is in the Euro-1 camoflauge.

 

CWwUlHLffybtDsHoDrnNKCOXC8x56PqL3a0CEaJB cErnwp1cLWaWthR8nel58VNT6lbaPODGogosXIR9
F-4Es of the New Jersey (left) and Californian (right) ANGs. The New Jersey ANG F-4E is in the Euro-1 camo and has an AIM-9L on its missile pylon.

 

Specifications

This is a Block 58 Phantom, and features all upgrades of previous blocks.

Introduced with Block 53 was the ability to use the AGM-65 and J79-GE-17C/-17E engines with low smoke combustors.

The J79-GE-17C/-17E has 11,870lbf (52.8kN) of thrust dry, and 17,900lbf (80kN) of afterburner thrust. These values are unchanged from the current F-4E. “Midas 4” upgrades for the gun were used as well, to help vent exhaust gases. Block 54 introduced high performance antenna and coaxial cables, and in Block 56 the new AN/ALR-46 RHAWS replaced the old AN/APR-36.

 

XLPZBXyK1BSkFG4l_g_jYqNsEuB7C8B7h6uriIkH

The Midas 4 upgrade, shown by the longer gun muzzle.

 

It could carry 1225 US gallons of internal fuel in self sealing fuel tanks, like the implemented one, and had a dry mass of 30,328lb (12,757kg).

 

The radar set of these era F-4s were the AN/APQ-120(V)-10/-11, which added a CAA mode. CAA, or Computer Automatic Acquisition, would help to filter out ground clutter and make aircraft below the Phantom easier to detect. From my understanding, it won't be easier to maintain radar lock, however, and this mode of tracking likely won't be reliable enough to guide any AIM-7s. To quote @Flame2512,

 

CAA mode would allow target detection at close ranges, possibly to slave Sidewinder missiles. It would be helpful in modes without icons for detecting targets, but may not be as useful as tracking targets. Only late models of the AN/APQ-120 would have it, such as the one suggested, the AN/APQ-120(V)-12.

 

Weaponry

The F-4E-58 was armed with an M61A1 20mm Vulcan, like previous variants.

As a reminder, this is a Phantom from 1983.

Being from 1983, available missiles/ordnance are:
 

A2A

IR

AIM-9J, produced from 1972 on.

AIM-9N, an upgraded AIM-9J with improved seeker performance. I am not sure how that would be implemented. Alternatively, a later AIM-9P such as the AIM-9P-3, which is more or less a slightly worse AIM-9L.

AIM-9L, produced from 1978 on.

 

SARH

AIM-7E-2, produced from 1969 on.

AIM-7F, produced from 1976 on.

AIM-7M, produced from 1982 on.

 

A2G

AGM-65D Maverick, achieved IOC in 1983. The Delta model replaced the seeker with an IR imaging system, doubling the practical firing range and making it able to be used in low-vis conditions.

AGM-62 Walleye (all)

AGM-45 Shrike

AGM-78 Standard ARM

GBU-10, 12, 14 and 15 (and associated imagers and targeting systems)

Mk.80 series of iron bombs

CBU.24 Cluster Bomb

 

Misc.

SUU-23/A M61A1 gunpod
GPU-5/A GAU-13/A gunpod

 

This would give it a good capability as a multirole, but it lacks a PD radar typical of other modern fighters at this time. As far as I know the USAF never refitted any F-4Es with PD radars for A2A.

 

A good stock loadout for this aircraft would be something like:
4x AIM-9J/P, 4x AIM-7E-2.

This is basically an F-4E at a higher BR but with unlockable capabilities that match that BR.

 

Conclusion

I believe this would be a good aircraft to add to the US tree, in a folder with the F-4E, to allow there to be a stop-gap between the USAF F-4Es and future F-15/F-16s. This would allow a USAF F-4 to have AIM-9Ls and compete with the USN’s F-4S fighters. At the same time, it would provide a good competitor for other countries’ top tier aircraft being introduced in the Winds of Change update.

 

Sources

Reveal hidden contents

Joe Baugher's compilation of information on the F-4E

 

Thrust of the J79 engine

Pg. 74, ref. 181. Information on how the low-smoke combustor works.

 

AIM-9L production date

AIM-7 production dates

 

Armament and available weapons

 

AIM-9L Manual

 

Armaments 

Included: AIM-9L, AIM-7M, AGM-45, AGM-78
For others, check table of contents

 

the CAA for f4e will be a nice ideia, with modern misiles

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+ I guess is a researchable vehicle add in a folder with the F-4E, modern new armament FOX 2,SARH,Anti-radiation missile & latest is AGM-65D maverick, like new camouflage more USAF vietnam camouflage, even if that's lack look-down capabilities but don't care, believe this would be good 3rd generation fighter aircraft before F-15A Eagle

Edited by oom1992
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Something like this shouldn't be an entirely new vehicle we need to grind rp and sl for. It should be a modification. Make the modification 75k rp or something. Make it more than regular mods but a lot less than an entire new vehicle. After we (theoretically) unlock the big mod, then we can start unlocking the new armaments

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  • 9 months later...

What needs to be emulated is the effect the RIO has on the aircraft, as well as TISEO.

 

The ARN-101 F-4E should have way better capabilities in radar performance than what is shown in game. 

From the RIO doing his job working the antenna all the way down to the digitalization of the displays that actually helped discriminate ground clutter from targets.

 

Instead, in-game, if your nose dips 0.1 degrees below the horizon, your aircraft instantly loses lock and can't find purchase when this simply wasn't the case IRL.

 

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