Flakpanzer Gepard 1 A2 Stinger Prototype (Flugabwehrkanonenpanzer Gepard 1 A2 Stinger)

[MandeFTW 68]

Flakpanzer Gepard 1 A2 Stinger

Introduction

The Gepard has seen many years of active service, with the A2 being the last version to be produced.
In its active service it received many upgrades, such as an Laser rangefinder from the A1 (also known as B2 L) and the A2 being the last but mostly modernized.
Which include: Digital Fire Control System, modernisation of armament by including new Ammunition and new controls and displays.

History
The Gepard 1 A2 was introduced in 1988 when the army received them, 12 years after the Gepard (1976) came into service and lasted until 2015, where the Gepard was officially put out of service.
Trail vehicles of the original gepard were trailed in 1968-1969 under the name Flakpanzer Matador, the difference between the 30mm and 35mm were not much and it was decided to opt for 4 35mm trial vehicles (Flugabwehrpanzer 35mm Zwillingskanone) made by Oerlikon. In 1972 the first trials of this prototype were finished and it was a succes. In 1973, permission was granted to import and 12 pre-series vehicles were imported. 
In 1976, the full series production started resulting in the Flakpanzer Gepard being made and put into service right away.

Technical Specifications

Weight	47.5 Ton
Length	7.76 Meters
Width	3.28 Meters
Height (With unfolded search radar)	4.22 Meters (3,29 Meters with folded radar)
Armor	30mm (Front) 25mm (Side) 20mm (Back)
Main Armament	2x 35mm oerlikon KDA L/90
Elevation	-10 to +85 degrees
Rate of Fire	550 ROF per gun 1100 ROF in total
Engine made by (MTU)	MB 838 CaM-500 830 HP at 2200 RPM
Transmission made by (ZF Friedrichshafen)	4 HP-250 4 Forward and 2 Reverse gears
Turret APU engine made by (Daimler-Benz)	Om-314 90 HP
Suspension	Torsion Bars from the Leopard 1
Operational Range	About 550 km on road
HP per ton	about 17,5 Hp/t
Search Radar made by (Siemens)	MPDR 12 range of 15 km
Identification Friend Foe	MSR 400 Mk XII
Tracking Radar	ALBIS
Crewmembers	Driver, Gunner, Commander
Stingers	FIM-92 5km Range
8x smoke grenades which was also featured on the Gepard

 

Stingers

 

The gepard 1A Stinger project, was started back when the germans were able to produce stingers under a license, this was to have as little men on the field as 4 stingers could be mounted on the elevation hub, 2 on each side. At that time, Krauss-Maffei Wegmann made a system to fit 4 stingers to the sides of the gepard, some where made, but not alot. they were not common and got stopped because of finance problems, but in a couple of nations, its still to this day, operational.

 

The stingers are the FIM-92 stinger licensed and produced by EADS (Formerly LFK) they were made for the army. 

Maximum Range	5 Kilometers
Weight of the Warhead	1000 Grams, or 1 KG

 

 

Ammunition

DM23 APDS-T (Oerlikon Named TLD 038/PMD 038) 
Muzzle Velocity: 1385 m/s Weight Round:1460 gram Weight charge:330 gram
Penetration at 1000 meters= 90 mm at 90 degree impact, 70mm at 60 degrees and 35-38mm at 30 degrees

-Use against heavier armoured vehicles

DM11A1 HEI-T (Oerlikon Named MLD 040/PMD 040)

Muzzle Velocity: 1175 m/s Weight Round:1565 gram, Weight charge:330 gram, Weight Explosive:98 gram

-For use against aircrafts/jets

 

DM?? HEI-IP (Oerlikon Named MSD 054/PMD 054)

Muzzle Velocity: 1175 m/s Weight Round:1580 gram, Weight charge:330 gram, Weight Explosive:112 gram

New shell made with a newer electornic impact/proximity fuze and better explosive shell ratio.

-Main purpose against aircraft/jets auto-destruction distance 4500 meters or 8 seconds

DM13 SAPHEI-T (Oerlikon Named PLD 044 PMD 044)

Muzzle Velocity: 1175 m/s Weight Round:1550 gram, Weight charge:330 gram, Weight Explosive:22 gram

Penetration at 1000 meters=37-40mm at 90 degree impact, 35mm at 60 degrees and 16-18mm at 30 degrees
-For use against lightly armoured vehicles and aircrafts/jets

 

DM33 FAPDS-T (Oerlikon Named PMD 055)

Muzzle Velocity: 1440 m/s Weight Round:1440 gram, Weight Projectile:375 gram

Penetration at 1000 meters= 90 mm at 90 degree impact, 70mm at 60 degrees and 35-38mm at 30 degrees
-Use for both Air and armoured vehicles.

 

-Special Rounds

AHEAD (Oerlikon Named PMD 062)
A special round made earlier than the ABM rounds found now, (ABM round used by Rheinmetall/german army now is a newer version of this round)
Muzzle Velocity: 1050 m/s Weight Round:1770 gram, Weight Projectile:750 gram

-Special use for Air targets and is able to destroy drones aswell thanks to its 152 sub-projectiles . (Tested with both Oerlikon KDA mounted on Gepard and GDF-007)

An example of how AHEAD/ABM works using the Skyranger ground version system. 

 

APFSDS-T (Oerlikon Named PMD 060)
Oerlikon produced an APFSDS-T round for the 35mm cannons it has produced, this included the KDA,KDB,KDC,KDE and the main purpose was to increase the power of the 35mm. It uses a Heavy metal "Long rod" penetrator that gives this shell roughly 30mm more pen at the same distance as its APDS counterpart. Its a good combination shell with its FAPDS-T counterpart.

Muzzle Velocity: 1400 m/s Weight Round:1445 gram, Weight Projectile:380 gram

Penetration at 1000 meters=120mm at 90 degrees, 

 

 

Laser Rangefinder

 

Both the 1A1 and 1A2 got a laser range finder to get the gepard effectiveness in air defence from 3,5 km to 5,0 Km( of course this is not only because of the laser range finder, but also the new shells)

The laser range finder is the Siemens LEM3 with an operating range of 5000 meters, the laser type is the new Nd-Yag, and its accuracy is +- 2.5 meters.

 

Radar/Fire Control System

In this department only a new Fire control system was added, which made the entire gepard more effective. Also there are some differences, such as the laser rangefinder on top of the tracking radar. (The Albis). The rest remains the same.

The Albis can track up to a 200° arc from the front of the turret if its not moving.

and the siemens searching radar still finds targets at max 15 km distance wise, and 3,5 km height wise.

 

Optical Tracking

The optical laying system can pick up targets using the periscopes of the Zielzuweiser-Optisch optical target designator, which are then tracked using the periscopes. At the same time, the azimuth and elevation angles are given for the measured point and are transmitted to the fire control system. When a target is tracked by the tracking radar, the periscopes automatically train on the target, allowing continuous monitoring and tracking.

This system makes it possible to measure the azimuth and elevation angles of a target detected with the naked eye.

 

Engine

The gepards all have the same engine, it uses the same engine that's in the Leopard 1.

The engine in question is the MTU-MB 838 CaM-500 which produces 830 hp at 2200 rpm. Also included was a turret engine, for standby which was a Daimler-Benz Om-314 90 hp, this engine was purely for the entire turret, from all the systems to the turret traverse.

 

 

 

 

In-Game

- In-game it can be a great addition to the german TT and could be fit in between the Ozelot-Flarakpz1 or after the Gepard as a full upgrade.

- Thanks to the upgrades, it can be more effective in-game with additions like Night-Vision, new shells like FAPDS, APFSDS and its new FCS that can even be more effective thanks to new calculations made for both the vehicle's speed and the initial shell velocity 

 

Images

Gepard 1 A2 Stinger Prototype going down the test-track (Note that the radar is unfolded but tracking radar is not unfolded.

Gepard 1 A2 stinger ready to fire in full combat mode (All radar unfolded and ready to use)

 

Gepard 1 A2 with view from the back, and top showing both sights for gunner and commander.

 

-Sources

-Oerlikon Contraves 35mm KDA Brochure
-Oerlikon Contraves 35mm Ammunition Brochure
-Oerlikon Militärprodukte
-KMW Gepard 1 A2/Cheetah PRTL Specsheet
-Jane's Ammunition Handbook 2002-2003  https://archive.org/details/Janes_Ammunition_Handbook/page/n813/mode/2up?q=35+x+228+mm
-Oerlikon Contraves Site for 35mm http://web.archive.org/web/20020706105758/http://www.ocag.ch/produkte/pb_flugabwehr/f_3o.html
-Oerlikon Contraves 35mm AHEAD round http://web.archive.org/web/20020712165231/http://www.ocag.ch:80/produkte/pb_mittelkaliber/m_3i.html
-Oerlikon Contraves Ammunition https://web.archive.org/web/20021116010551/http://www.ocag.ch/produkte/pb_mittelkaliber/m_3a.html

-Gepard "The history of German Anti-Aircraft Tanks"

-Tankograd nr 5021 ”Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft Gun/Missile Tanks of the Modern German Army 1956 to Today”

-Tankograd nr 5073 “The Gepard Self-Propelled Anti-aircraft Gun in German Service”

-Waffen Revue nr.24 "Flakpanzer Gepard Ausführlicher bericht in diesem heft"

-Rheinmetall 35mm weapon system for vehicle's  https://web.archive.org/web/20060925051558/http://www.rheinmetall-detec.de/index.php?fid=2049&lang=3&pdb=1

-Rheinmetall Defence 35mm AHEAD  https://web.archive.org/web/20060925042921/http://www.rheinmetall-detec.de/index.php?fid=1533&lang=3&pdb=1

-Jane's Land-Based Air defence 1992-1993
-Jane's Armoured Fighting Vehicle's Retrofit 1993-1994
-Janes Armour and Artillery 1984-1985 & 1985-1986

- https://crib-blog.blogspot.com/p/leopard-family.html#:~:text=-Flakpanzer Gepard (entire series)

-Rheinmetall PDF (2017) Innovative Designs to Improve Medium Calibre Ammunition Effectivenes showing 35mm AFPSDS, AHEAD and newer KETF (ABM)

-OPFOR Worldwide Equipment Guide 2001  https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/weg2001.pdf

 

Conclusion

The 1A2 was the last gepard to be build, in lasted for a solid 40 years+ of service in the german army, and still is in service in other nations (if you also include the Cheetah PRTL) it has seen alot of upgrades, and all of those were well deserved, but there's always a time where you cant continue with it. The replacements started rolling in service, and slowly the 1A2 was decommissioned but, it was truly a one of a kind anti-air that showed sometimes, newer =/= better. 

This is the end of my suggestion for the gepard 1A2 stinger prototype, please comment down below if you have suggestions for what I should change or add.

[kleinerPanzer 648]

Open for discussion 

[Yontzee 1,674]

It’s back! Should be added to the game but as a separate vehicle. Let the standard Gepard receiver an upgrade/modification to the 1A2 (aka Laser Rangefinder/FAPDS) with this beast being around 9.3. +1 

[Chris4win 366]

+1 after moving the flarakpz to10.3 this would be a nice replacement for 9.7 and 10.0

[eleks12 1,079]

Has this not been suggested in the past?

 

Anyways +1

[BagelIsMyWaifu 838]

56 minutes ago, eleks12 said:

Has this not been suggested in the past?

Yes, but it was part of the great suggestion killing of ... when did that happen again, I kinda lost track of time

 

Also, has there ever been any definitive proof of Gepard being able to use AHEAD? The pictures of the Stinger variant show the normal muzzle breaks without programming coil, just like every other I have seen

[MandeFTW 68]

3 hours ago, eleks12 said:

Has this not been suggested in the past?

 

Anyways +1

Yes, it was suggested in the past, however the big purge of suggestions removed it. (and at that time I was kinda tired/quit WT forums) so I reposted it later than most people would have done.

 

 

2 hours ago, BagelIsMyWaifu said:

Yes, but it was part of the great suggestion killing of ... when did that happen again, I kinda lost track of time

 

Also, has there ever been any definitive proof of Gepard being able to use AHEAD? The pictures of the Stinger variant show the normal muzzle breaks without programming coil, just like every other I have seen

According to both Oerlikon brochure's and Rheinmetall the Gepard is able to use AHEAD. The muzzle break is less important as the FCS can do the programming in a different phase compared to the usual external ground variants like the GDF-007 

[gojuancamilo@psn 307]

2 hours ago, BagelIsMyWaifu said:

Also, has there ever been any definitive proof of Gepard being able to use AHEAD? The pictures of the Stinger variant show the normal muzzle breaks without programming coil, just like every other I have seen

The other day I saw a video (from a reasonable source) in which it was mentioned that the Gepards sent to Ukraine where very effective because they had air burst muntitions. It did not explicitly mention AHEAD but I guess it was reffering to it. 

 

If they are modified Gepards wit programming muzzle breaks or they just use the FCS I do not know. 

[BagelIsMyWaifu 838]

7 hours ago, MandeFTW said:

The muzzle break is less important as the FCS can do the programming in a different phase compared to the usual external ground variants like the GDF-007 

I would love to see your detailed explanation how a computer system can program a shell without a programmer. And even if Gepard had a programmer in, for example, the feed system, it would be far less effective than the muzzle programmer because it lacks compensation for variations in muzzle velocity. Not to mention such a programmer would require internal modifications for no benefit.

7 hours ago, MandeFTW said:

According to both Oerlikon brochure's and Rheinmetall the Gepard is able to use AHEAD

Would love to see those brochures. None of those I have even mention Gepard. Nor does KMW on their website mention Gepard being able to program shells

6 hours ago, gojuancamilo@psn said:

The other day I saw a video (from a reasonable source) in which it was mentioned that the Gepards sent to Ukraine where very effective because they had air burst muntitions. It did not explicitly mention AHEAD but I guess it was reffering to it. 

Considering AHEAD is a product by Rheinmetall Air Defence, who have their headquarters in Switzerland, which still ban all military exports to Ukraine, I find this highly unlikely. From my knowledge they are using impact fused HEI with self destruct by Nammo

[JamesPond1200@psn 299]

YES! Been wanting this since I first saw it! +1

[MandeFTW 68]

7 hours ago, BagelIsMyWaifu said:

I would love to see your detailed explanation how a computer system can program a shell without a programmer. And even if Gepard had a programmer in, for example, the feed system, it would be far less effective than the muzzle programmer because it lacks compensation for variations in muzzle velocity. Not to mention such a programmer would require internal modifications for no benefit.

Would love to see those brochures. None of those I have even mention Gepard. Nor does KMW on their website mention Gepard being able to program shells

Considering AHEAD is a product by Rheinmetall Air Defence, who have their headquarters in Switzerland, which still ban all military exports to Ukraine, I find this highly unlikely. From my knowledge they are using impact fused HEI with self destruct by Nammo

The way the gepard works is different from how, for example, the GDF-006 or GDF-007 system works (GDF-006 and 007 are the newer AHEAD variants that were upgraded from older GDF-001,002,003 and GDF-005). These variants of the ground based models did not have a full integrated FCS that the gepard has already built in nor did these have the V0 measuring base/muzzle installed that the gepard has out of the box. (They have to use the external FCS to be used properly)

 

With the upgrade from the A1 to A2 standard, a new digital FCS and modification to the armament took place (1998-2003) in result the gepard A2 got a new muzzle brake that no other gepard had. (Not the muzzle brake that was needed to be installed when firing blanks) *Note: the new muzzle brake installed on the pictures in the suggestion. Putting 1+1 together resulting in new ammunition like AHEAD&KETF with the upgrade of the gepard and them stating in official sources that it works with the KDA gun (at the same time that the gun got its modification) is enough to say the gepard 1 A2 can fire it. I am not saying that Germany used the round (because that information is classified) but thinking long enough about it. Why would they not use AHEAD or ABM rounds to push the Gepard 1 A2 to its limits before shutting it down once and for all.

 

What brochures do you have? Basing it off the ones I have here, all the information is accurate to what official sources are saying. Cant be more clearer than that. 

*Note: I will not show my brochures as those are things I would rather not share, unless they're already posted on the web.I don't know what shells Germany has given with the gepard's they have send to ukrain. I am not going to dig into that as that is not my research nor is something I want to do.

[BagelIsMyWaifu 838]

11 hours ago, MandeFTW said:

The way the gepard works is different from how, for example, the GDF-006 or GDF-007 system works (GDF-006 and 007 are the newer AHEAD variants that were upgraded from older GDF-001,002,003 and GDF-005). These variants of the ground based models did not have a full integrated FCS that the gepard has already built in nor did these have the V0 measuring base/muzzle installed that the gepard has out of the box. (They have to use the external FCS to be used properly)

No matter if FCS and muzzle measurement are already included, you need the programming coils like the Puma or PGZ-09 have

11 hours ago, MandeFTW said:

Why would they not use AHEAD or ABM rounds to push the Gepard 1 A2 to its limits before shutting it down once and for all.

From my reading FAPDS only came with the 1A2. Why would you purchase this ammunition when you have AHEAD as well, which has way superior hit probabilities?

11 hours ago, MandeFTW said:

What brochures do you have? Basing it off the ones I have here, all the information is accurate to what official sources are saying. Cant be more clearer than that. 

https://www.rheinmetall.com/media/editor_media/rheinmetallag/events/medien_dvd_2022/air_defence_systems/Oerlikon_Ahead_Air_Burst_Ammunition_PBR_EN_B038e0222.pdf

This one does not mention Gepard nor the KDA

I also have a second from Oerlikon around 1993 which equally doesnt take any mention of Gepard

 

On 22/11/2022 at 17:05, MandeFTW said:

The Gepard 1 A2 was introduced in 1988 when the army received them

Lastly this. In 1988 35mm AHEAD didnt even exist, so how can the Gepard be modified a shell that only gets presented 4 years later?

 

Dont understand me wrong, I want to see this Gepard ingame, but I dont believe it should have access to AHEAD

[SXTREME 1,501]

Well, Rheinmetall does state that it has an AHEAD round that fits the 35mm KDA chamber, the question is does the Gepard have a programming coil on the barrel end? Because from images we can only see the two coils meant to measure muzzle velocity.

[MandeFTW 68]

55 minutes ago, BagelIsMyWaifu said:

No matter if FCS and muzzle measurement are already included, you need the programming coils like the Puma or PGZ-09 have

From my reading FAPDS only came with the 1A2. Why would you purchase this ammunition when you have AHEAD as well, which has way superior hit probabilities?

https://www.rheinmetall.com/media/editor_media/rheinmetallag/events/medien_dvd_2022/air_defence_systems/Oerlikon_Ahead_Air_Burst_Ammunition_PBR_EN_B038e0222.pdf

This one does not mention Gepard nor the KDA

I also have a second from Oerlikon around 1993 which equally doesnt take any mention of Gepard

 

Lastly this. In 1988 35mm AHEAD didnt even exist, so how can the Gepard be modified a shell that only gets presented 4 years later?

 

Dont understand me wrong, I want to see this Gepard ingame, but I dont believe it should have access to AHEAD

I dont understand you wrong, and I do see the points you make. 

You have the proses of R&D behind the scenes of shells that were not shown public at the time, the gepard (and in this specific scenario aswell, the gun) were both made by Oerlikon, they can and have tested all shells that are able to be fired from the 35mm gun, including KDA, KDE and all that. Offcourse without full test documents and all that, its hard to figure out what is, and what is not true. 

The KDA according to RH and Oerlikon can fire AHEAD or KETF/ABM rounds both have said this and we can both agree its stated. FAPDS is a cheaper round to produce than an ABM or AHEAD round so if it does not fully increase its performance compared to its cost, its a big reason why some rounds are not being used while tests have shown they are better. (This offcourse relies on official ammunition documents that only the Bundeswehr and or Rheinmetall has)

And offcourse with new documents, older vehicles that are put out of service or are not supported are not going to be shown as "supported" on new documents. That does not take away the fact that documents from its time, (1988-2003) show the KDA being able to fire said round (muzzle brake is interchangable after all).

 

1 hour ago, SXTREME said:

Well, Rheinmetall does state that it has an AHEAD round that fits the 35mm KDA chamber, the question is does the Gepard have a programming coil on the barrel end? Because from images we can only see the two coils meant to measure muzzle velocity.

I cant confirm if the Gepard 1 A2 or its muzzle brake has the programming block, as that is unknown and is probably not able to be verified using the naked eye, and I doubt RH or the Bundeswehr will give us any information about that.

I understand your opinion about that it should not have access to AHEAD and we can have different opinions. 

 

[BagelIsMyWaifu 838]

44 minutes ago, MandeFTW said:

I cant confirm if the Gepard 1 A2 or its muzzle brake has the programming block, as that is unknown and is probably not able to be verified using the naked eye, and I doubt RH or the Bundeswehr will give us any information about that.

? Its well known that the programming block is this thick block on the end of the barrel because of the inductive coils. Its very visible from outside

[MandeFTW 68]

10 hours ago, BagelIsMyWaifu said:

? Its well known that the programming block is this thick block on the end of the barrel because of the inductive coils. Its very visible from outside

I know that, but I dont think that is the only muzzle brake that can program AHEAD rounds. 

If the gun was not able to fire/use AHEAD to its full potential, I doubt they would put it on their brochures when the AHEAD round came out. 
And its also interesting that using KMW's Gepard 1 A2 (stinger) video they made, also talks about and I quote
"Gepard, firepower in precision, counteractive against aircrafts,helicopters,UAV's and rockets, artillery&mortars"

From my conclusion, and thinking about it logical. 
The Gepard's muzzle brake has the programming block already installed in its second ring, reason for this is that is does not rely on the laser range finder giving the lastest distance as the radars already do that job (unless its using optical tracking in which the laser rangefinder/tracking radar will be used instead of the main search and tracking radar.) Which reduces the need for the extra muzzle velocity measurement as the radar gives the latest accurate data to the programmer resulting in the same distance as if it was used on a normal tank like the Puma IFV. 
The Gepard has the block bcs it can also fire electronical fuze rounds like the HEI-IP which can be triggered mechanical and electronical (with elektronical resulting in better performance)

That is how the Gepard can fire ABM/AHEAD rounds, its just a different way compared to the liking of the GDF-006,007 and other ABM capable guns like the MK-30/2 ABM.


 

[Milocat 4,854]

+1 as a new vehicle.  

[Yontzee 1,674]

Congrats on the implementation mate! 

[MandeFTW 68]

10 minutes ago, Yontzee said:

Congrats on the implementation mate! 

Thank you very much mate! Supriced it came that early, now onto the next gepard suggestion with thermals xD

[Chris4win 366]

2 hours ago, MandeFTW said:

Thank you very much mate! Supriced it came that early, now onto the next gepard suggestion with thermals xD

 

Don´t expect to much. It´s just the regular gepard with stingers and lrf. No fapds or ahead

[Lord_Prism 1,826]

No NV either at 9.7!

2 hours ago, Chris4win said:

Don´t expect to much. It´s just the regular gepard with stingers and lrf. No fapds or ahead

 

[gojuancamilo@psn 307]

On 22/11/2022 at 11:05, MandeFTW said:

Great to see this vehicle in the game. I was wondering if anybody knows what the box in the rear is for? Id like to think its for extra Stingers...

[MandeFTW 68]

4 hours ago, Chris4win said:

 

Don´t expect to much. It´s just the regular gepard with stingers and lrf. No fapds or ahead

Yeah, but that is gaijin for ya. Cant make something to OP while suggestions give the exact stuff it has used.

 

5 minutes ago, gojuancamilo@psn said:

Great to see this vehicle in the game. I was wondering if anybody knows what the box in the rear is for? Id like to think its for extra Stingers...

if you mean the box on back of the tank, its for additional storage. (crew kit and equipment)

[Chris4win 366]

34 minutes ago, MandeFTW said:

Yeah, but that is gaijin for ya. Cant make something to OP while suggestions give the exact stuff it has used.

 

if you mean the box on back of the tank, its for additional storage. (crew kit and equipment)

nightvision is missing too. Gaijin did a lazy implementation again. It´s a gepard a1 with stingers. The a1 did get the lrf too iirc.

I am glad to have it ingame because it looks cool and stingers help against jets, but Gaijin could have done a better job.

(hope for the FlakPanzer DRAGON, this east german truck anti air  or an auto cannon vehicle next maybe the the spz 11-2 kurz)

[NoodleCup31 8,824]

56 minutes ago, Chris4win said:

stingers help against jets,

Too bad they were nerfed from 1000 m/s to 680 m/s this patch