PTZ89 should be 8.0

[Zephoid 1,583]

Its literally an object 120 with a stabalizer. Biggest glass cannon in the game with ammo rack across the entire back of the turret and subject to constant overpressure kills. No thermals, no speed, 5 degrees depression, and large profile. While it has 40 more pen than any other apfsds, it has nearly no targets where that 40 pen matters. 5s reload is nice and the lethality is great, but everything you see can 1 shot you back just as easy as you can 1 shot them. And they get thermals and actual gun depression. With the prevalence of autocannons at this br, its easily the worst vehicle i've played at 8.7 across most of the nations of the game.

 

[SrNowel59917 656]

2 hours ago, Zephoid said:

Its literally an object 120 with a stabalizer. Biggest glass cannon in the game with ammo rack across the entire back of the turret and subject to constant overpressure kills. No thermals, no speed, 5 degrees depression, and large profile. While it has 40 more pen than any other apfsds, it has nearly no targets where that 40 pen matters. 5s reload is nice and the lethality is great, but everything you see can 1 shot you back just as easy as you can 1 shot them. And they get thermals and actual gun depression. With the prevalence of autocannons at this br, its easily the worst vehicle i've played at 8.7 across most of the nations of the game.

 

"it is literally a object 120 with an stabalizer" seems that you forgot about the 5s reload, more pen and a laser range finder

[somebody_Else 776]

2 hours ago, Zephoid said:

Its literally an object 120 with a stabalizer. Biggest glass cannon in the game with ammo rack across the entire back of the turret and subject to constant overpressure kills. No thermals, no speed, 5 degrees depression, and large profile. While it has 40 more pen than any other apfsds, it has nearly no targets where that 40 pen matters. 5s reload is nice and the lethality is great, but everything you see can 1 shot you back just as easy as you can 1 shot them. And they get thermals and actual gun depression. With the prevalence of autocannons at this br, its easily the worst vehicle i've played at 8.7 across most of the nations of the game.

 

 

No.

[Zephoid 1,583]

4 hours ago, SrNowel59917 said:

"it is literally a object 120 with an stabalizer" seems that you forgot about the 5s reload, more pen and a laser range finder

Noted everything if you actually read. Also 1.3 BR increase off the obj120. LRF is rather irrelevant with 1700m/s apfsds.OBJ120 gets 405 pen apfsds at 7.3, 40 more pen isn't much to write home about. Everything that lets the OBJ120 sit at 7.3 and leave it only an above average tank is what should be putting the PTZ at 8.0.  
 

 

4 hours ago, somebody_Else said:

 

No.

Good argument there, lot of thought put into it. 

[Kallu609 8]

Nah, China simply is not allowed have good (non-premium) guns at any BR and PTZ89 exists to be forgotten by both players and devs

[somebody_Else 776]

8 hours ago, Zephoid said:

leave it only an above average tank is what should be putting the PTZ at 8.0. 

 

Its exceptional at 8.7, play it more and learn its abilities. Its firepower is extremely good with the autoloader.

 

8.0 would be ridiculously broken.

[Zephoid 1,583]

1 hour ago, somebody_Else said:

 

Its exceptional at 8.7, play it more and learn its abilities. Its firepower is extremely good with the autoloader.

 

8.0 would be ridiculously broken.

Literally its only ability is its reload. Everything else a go-kart is beter for (and more siurvivable) 
Why would it be broken at 8.0? Its still one of the least durable vehicles in the game without gun depression and not particularly fast. Much like the OBJ 120, you can pen everything but everything can pen you, and planes eat you alive. 

[somebody_Else 776]

10 minutes ago, Zephoid said:

Literally its only ability is its reload. Everything else a go-kart is beter for (and more siurvivable) 
Why would it be broken at 8.0? Its still one of the least durable vehicles in the game without gun depression and not particularly fast. Much like the OBJ 120, you can pen everything but everything can pen you, and planes eat you alive. 

 

Almost like the 5 second autoloader and laser rangefinder is a huge advantage when played right. And with an exceptional long-rod shell which has the same exceptional angle modifiers as even top tier shells.

 

Its a great tank, 8.7 is the correct spot for it

Edited March 30, 2023 by somebody_Else

[Zephoid 1,583]

2 minutes ago, somebody_Else said:

 

Almost like the 5 second autoloader and laser rangefinder is a huge advantage when played right. And with an exceptional long-rod shell which has the same exceptional angle modifiers as even top tier shells.

 

Its a great tank, 8.7 is the correct spot for it

LRF at 8.7 isn't even rare. More than half the vehicles at 8.7 or above that were added in the past year have lrf. 

If your objective is long range combat, thermals improve capabilities FAR more than LRF.

Shell is great, but only the T72A, T64B and OBJ 279 have areas of the tank where such a shell is needed. Everything else you pen wwwith a 350 pen apfsds. The OBJ 120's shell is just 40 pen less and DOUBLE the weight with also good slope modifiers, so thats not a justification for 1.3BRs up. 

The Rooikat MTTD is incredibly fast, has LRF, Thermals, is more survivable, has scouting, has UAV, has 6.7s reload, better turret rotation. Sits  at 8.7. 
The ATF09 does everything better than than the PTZ89 due to thermals and survivability. 500m/s 1200 pen atgms are just as good as 1700m/s apfsds and lrf. 5s reload vs 4 shot ripple fire. 
The PTZ doesn't compete with these go-karts, its made irrelevant by them. 

[somebody_Else 776]

6 minutes ago, Zephoid said:

LRF at 8.7 isn't even rare. More than half the vehicles at 8.7 or above that were added in the past year have lrf. 

 

Doesn't mean its not an advantage to have. Very few tanks at 8.0 have it, the ptz would dominate at 8.0.

 

6 minutes ago, Zephoid said:

The OBJ 120's shell is just 40 pen less and DOUBLE the weight with also good slope modifiers, so thats not a justification for 1.3BRs up. 

 

Worse angled modifiers, but again, the laser rangefinder, stabiliser and 5s autoloader are the main reasons for the higher br

 

6 minutes ago, Zephoid said:

he Rooikat MTTD is incredibly fast, has LRF, Thermals, is more survivable, has scouting, has UAV, has 6.7s reload, better turret rotation. Sits  at 8.7. 

 

You mean the notoriously undertiered MTTD? Really should be higher than 8.7, not an excuse to lower the PTZ.

 

6 minutes ago, Zephoid said:

The ATF09 does everything better than than the PTZ89 due to thermals and survivability. 500m/s 1200 pen atgms are just as good as 1700m/s apfsds and lrf. 5s reload vs 4 shot ripple fire. 

 

You mean the notoriously undertiered AFT09. Really should be higher than 8.7, not an excuse to lower the PTZ.

Edited March 30, 2023 by somebody_Else

[llSolitairell@psn 5,730]

Should be 8.3 with the ZTZ59D1

 

27 minutes ago, somebody_Else said:

Almost like the 5 second autoloader and laser rangefinder is a huge advantage when played right.

 

More like when the opposition is playing wrong, it falls into the same trap as the Chieftain Mk.3 where it's not suited to the maps; except it doesn't have the advantage of the Chief 3 and it's turret is stuffed with ammunition, incredibly tall and unarmoured; you can "play it right" and explode at any time anyway. Even the ZTZ88A which the OP hates is an outright better vehicle in 99% of situations.

 

Sure it can fight at 8.7 because of the APFSDS and reload but it's far from an "excellent vehicle" lmao

[somebody_Else 776]

7 minutes ago, llSolitairell@psn said:

Should be 8.3 with the ZTZ59D1

 

No, the ZTZ59D1 is another great 8.7 tank, furthest from needing lowering to 8.3.

 

8.7 is where it should be

 

7 minutes ago, llSolitairell@psn said:

More like when the opposition is playing wrong, it falls into the same trap as the Chieftain Mk.3 where it's not suited to the maps; except it doesn't have the advantage of the Chief 3 and it's turret is stuffed with ammunition, incredibly tall and unarmoured; you can "play it right" and explode at any time anyway. Even the ZTZ88A which the OP hates is an outright better vehicle in 99% of situations.

 

There are a lot of maps its suited to. The point of a lineup is to diversify your capabilities. Obviously its not the best choice for urban maps, but with a 5 second autoloader its still great at locking down sight lines there.

 

But long range maps it does extremely well

Edited March 30, 2023 by somebody_Else

[llSolitairell@psn 5,730]

5 minutes ago, somebody_Else said:

 

No, the ZTZ59D1 is another great 8.7 tank, furthest from needing lowering to 8.3.

 

8.7 is where it should be

 

59D1 is awful

neat trick with thermals but is otherwise worse in every regard to T69IIG and even T-55AM

 

5 minutes ago, somebody_Else said:

 

There are a lot of maps its suited to. The point of a lineup is to diversify your capabilities. Obviously its not the best choice for urban maps, but with a 5 second autoloader its still great at locking down sight lines there.

 

But long range maps it does extremely well

 

And there's better choices than the PTZ89 like the 88A, PTL and M60TTS 

[Zephoid 1,583]

2 minutes ago, somebody_Else said:

 

Doesn't mean its not an advantage to have. Very few tanks at 8.0 have it, the ptz would dominate at 8.0.

 

 

Worse angled modifiers, but again, the laser rangefinder, stabiliser and 5s autoloader are the main reasons for the higher br

 

 

You mean the notoriously undertiered MTTD? Really should be higher than 8.7, not an excuse to lower the PTZ.

 

 

You mean the notoriously undertiered AFT09. Really should be higher than 8.7, not an excuse to lower the PTZ.

What would the PTZ dominate? You keep stating this, but the the PTZ is the VFW of the BR. Bulky, unarmored, bad depression, and easy to kill despite advantages. The VFW was claimed as OP when it came out, then ppl realized durability and gun depression matter. Much the same here.

I assume you think the Type16p is underteired also for much the same reasons as the MTTD? Because we are starting to run out of 8.7s. There are ~15 8.7s, so you are eliminating most of them that could have similar role. Not exactly a good argument for keeping it at its current BR. |

What long range maps does it do well on. Because thermals are far more of an asset on large maps than LRF when you have APFSDS. Also, many things live through a turret shot from a APFSDS. You don't. So this is the classic 3 punch match. You punch them. They repair and punch you. Your turret punches the ground as it pops off. Lets not even factor in aircraft or helis that eat you alive on large maps. 

[somebody_Else 776]

7 minutes ago, llSolitairell@psn said:

59D1 is awful

neat trick with thermals but is otherwise worse in every regard to T69IIG and even T-55AM

 

Its not. Only downside is the turret rotation. The thermals, long-rod APFSDS, optics, quite a bit better than the T-55AM1.

 

Fantastic tank, one of my favourites

 

11 minutes ago, llSolitairell@psn said:

And there's better choices than the PTZ89 like the 88A, PTL and M60TTS 

 

None of which can pump out shells every 5 seconds

 

But again, PTL really shouldn't be as low as 8.7, wheeled vehicles in general tend to be pretty undertiered in war thunder

[llSolitairell@psn 5,730]

1 minute ago, somebody_Else said:

 

Its not. Only downside is the turret rotation. The thermals, long-rod APFSDS, optics, quite a bit better than the T-55AM1.

 

Fantastic tank, one of my favourites

 

That turret rotation speed is glacial, on top of 9.1s reload and lower HP/T than T-69IIG and T-55AM, can't check the game rn but the optics are not that impressive beyond the thermals

The T-69IIG also has long rod APFSDS, not that this really matters until 9.3+ composite armour

 

The T-90A is one of my favourite tanks, I wouldn't pretend it's excellent (it's alright), you're letting personal favouritism get in the way of objective comparisons

 

59D1 is awful

 

1 minute ago, somebody_Else said:

None of which can pump out shells every 5 seconds

 

It's situational when this is necessary and you pay a heavy tax for the privilege.

[Zephoid 1,583]

2 minutes ago, somebody_Else said:

 

Its not. Only downside is the turret rotation. The thermals, long-rod APFSDS, optics, quite a bit better than the T-55AM1.

 

Fantastic tank, one of my favourites

 

 

None of which can pump out shells every 5 seconds

 

But again, PTL really shouldn't be as low as 8.7, wheeled vehicles in general tend to be pretty undertiered in war thunder

PTL just got upteired. Hell, have you even played the thing? its not even GOOD at its current BR. huge, terrible depression, no armor, and can't reverse. Type 16p, rooikats, and centauros are all better.  Hell, even the Leo A1A1 and TAM 2IP are just as fast at acceleration and hill climbing and have way better combat performance. 

59D1 is perfectly fine. Slow and awful turret rotation, but the thermals give it an edge most soviet tanks don't have until much later. An interesting hybrid thats about average at its br. 

5s reload is only relevant if you can use it. In this br, hull shots are 1 shot kill and turret shots are often 2. Except for you, you die to everything and .50s (or the occasional 20mm). So while an advantage, not as big as you seem to think it is. 

[somebody_Else 776]

24 minutes ago, Zephoid said:

What would the PTZ dominate? You keep stating this, but the the PTZ is the VFW of the BR. Bulky, unarmored, bad depression, and easy to kill despite advantages. The VFW was claimed as OP when it came out, then ppl realized durability and gun depression matter. Much the same here.

I assume you think the Type16p is underteired also for much the same reasons as the MTTD? Because we are starting to run out of 8.7s. There are ~15 8.7s, so you are eliminating most of them that could have similar role. Not exactly a good argument for keeping it at its current BR. |

What long range maps does it do well on. Because thermals are far more of an asset on large maps than LRF when you have APFSDS. Also, many things live through a turret shot from a APFSDS. You don't. So this is the classic 3 punch match. You punch them. They repair and punch you. Your turret punches the ground as it pops off. Lets not even factor in aircraft or helis that eat you alive on large maps. 

 

Forums just wiped my longer answer

 

shorter version, would dominate all the 8.0s like the M60s, should never see 7.0/7.3's like the centurions, yada yada

 

Long range maps, pradesh, poland, red desert, go into the wiki, you'll see them all.

[somebody_Else 776]

3 minutes ago, llSolitairell@psn said:

on top of 9.1s reload

 

maxed out crews,

 

T69, 8.6 second

ZTZ59d1, 8.6s

T-55AM1, 8.5s

 

literal 0.1 second difference

 

5 minutes ago, llSolitairell@psn said:

you're letting personal favouritism get in the way of objective comparisons, 59D1 is awful

 

lmao, "personal favouritism". Favouritism to what? Great vehicles?

 

Its not awful.

 

6 minutes ago, Zephoid said:

its not even GOOD at its current BR.

 

Still extremely good at 8.7

[llSolitairell@psn 5,730]

Just now, somebody_Else said:

 

maxed out crews,

 

T69, 8.6 second

ZTZ59d1, 8.6s

T-55AM1, 8.5s

 

literal 0.1 second difference

 

And the T-69IIG and T-55AM are both 8.3 with the 59D1 having to fight TAM2IPs/LeoA1A1s as standard assuming you don't get uptiered higher.

[Zephoid 1,583]

11 minutes ago, somebody_Else said:

 

Forums just wiped my longer answer

 

shorter version, would dominate all the 8.0s like the M60s, should never see 7.0/7.3's like the centurions, yada yada

 

Long range maps, pradesh, poland, red desert, go into the wiki, you'll see them all.

Pradesh you need gun depression to use most of the best spots. Other than that, thermals are far more important because of the number of hull down spots you are going to need to be scanning. Also, any atgm carrier is better than the PTZ. I'll even take the M113 chassis over it. NE and SW both have  a spot that can see huge sections of the map from hull down with good visual cover, but you need gun depression. 

Poland you NEED thermals. With them you effectively ignore all the vegitation on the map. Without them, you are scanning huge areas for tiny objects. 

Red Desert is removed from rotation.

I know whan the maps are. I'd rather have thermals on ALL of them than lrf. 

You don't balance tanks on what they can see in their downteir. The OBJ 120 sees the T25 but its obvious which one of those is better. 

At 8.0 everything has stabs and a few things have thermals. Everything has 400 pen HEAT or 300 pen APFSDS. So its an upgrade from those vehicles lethality at the cost of durability, depression, and turret rotation. You know, a TANK DESTROYER much the same as the SU-100P or waffentrager. 

 

 

5 minutes ago, somebody_Else said:

 

Still extremely good at 8.7

The xxxx is it good against? What is this magical 8.7 you are envisioning? You have ~6 wheeled vehicles at that BR and its the worst. How the xxxx is that still considered good?

Edited March 30, 2023 by Zephoid

[somebody_Else 776]

Just now, llSolitairell@psn said:

 

And the T-69IIG and T-55AM are both 8.3 with the 59D1 having to fight TAM2IPs/LeoA1A1s as standard assuming you don't get uptiered higher.

 

The T-69 had its reload nerfed because it was performing too well at 8.3 and they didn't want to move it back up to 8.7.

 

And again, neither have thermals.

 

The 59D1 can easily handle TAMs and Leo's

[SrNowel59917 656]

1 minute ago, llSolitairell@psn said:

 

And the T-69IIG and T-55AM are both 8.3 with the 59D1 having to fight TAM2IPs/LeoA1A1s as standard assuming you don't get uptiered higher.

well the amd is 8.7 and it is objectively worse than the 51D1 not to mention that the tam2ip and leo doesnt even have thermals

[somebody_Else 776]

Just now, Zephoid said:

Pradesh you need gun depression to use most of the best spots. Other than that, thermals are far more important because of the number of hull down spots you are going to need to be scanning. Also, any atgm carrier is better than the PTZ. I'll even take the M113 chassis over it. NE and SW both have  a spot that can see huge sections of the map from hull down with good visual cover, but you need gun depression. 

Poland you NEED thermals. With them you effectively ignore all the vegitation on the map. Without them, you are scanning huge areas for tiny objects. 

 

None of which is true. Use your eyes and there are plenty of great spots for the ptz

 

1 minute ago, Zephoid said:

You don't balance tanks on what they can see in their downteir.

 

I'm not, I'm balancing by what would be at the same BR. And it would dominate 8.0's at 8.0.

[llSolitairell@psn 5,730]

2 minutes ago, SrNowel59917 said:

well the amd is 8.7 and it is objectively worse than the 51D1

 

No it isn't, its turret rotation is much faster and it has much better power to weight.

 

2 minutes ago, SrNowel59917 said:

not to mention that the tam2ip and leo doesnt even have thermals

 

Neither does the ZTZ88A and it's still a much better tank.

Edited March 30, 2023 by llSolitairell@psn