The AIM-7 Sparrow Missile - Information & Discussion topic

[UKoctane 2,527]

13 hours ago, Aerobane said:

I've just realized what happened to me makes no sense at all. If the radar can effectively illuminate the Mig and the Jaguar at such a wide angle simultaneously, why require radar lock to launch? Shouldn't we be able to just turn on the illuminator, light up everything in front of us, and start spamming sparrows at multiple enemies simultaneously? Because if the radar can illuminate multiple targets simultaneously and illuminate targets that are not locked or close to the target being locked, then it should be able to guide sparrows to multiple enemies at once. I doubt that is the case though, so clearly something is weird with the way they work.

It is likely just Gaijin's absoltely terrible coding as per most stuff only half-working in this game. IRL the earlier AIM7s could be confused relatively easily by other aircraft nearby the beamline of the locked radar due to conical scanning but it still requires some of the radiation to be reflected, which the jaguar is far too far off boresight to do. Honestly that is so far out that its like gaijin have coded the AIM 7s as heatseekers that simply require a constant lock to be held. Sparrows need a constant lock because the scan frequency of an aircraft radar is nowhere near high enough to produce position updates from the reflected beam per second for the sparrow to accurately guide itself to a target.

 

 

[Nicolaser 2,024]

5 hours ago, UKoctane said:

It is likely just Gaijin's absoltely terrible coding as per most stuff only half-working in this game. IRL the earlier AIM7s could be confused relatively easily by other aircraft nearby the beamline of the locked radar due to conical scanning but it still requires some of the radiation to be reflected, which the jaguar is far too far off boresight to do. Honestly that is so far out that its like gaijin have coded the AIM 7s as heatseekers that simply require a constant lock to be held. Sparrows need a constant lock because the scan frequency of an aircraft radar is nowhere near high enough to produce position updates from the reflected beam per second for the sparrow to accurately guide itself to a target.

 

 

Tbh It's possible : I tested r530 in pve mode... Well my radar is jumping from target to target (sometime it's just between two target) and the missile still destroy one... 

[shanrocks1 383]

On 04/09/2020 at 16:33, Flame2512 said:

Say your radar target is the same altitude as you and 20 degrees to your left. The missile seeker (with a 10 degree FoV) will point itself in the direction of the target (in this example 20 degrees to the left) before launch. After launch the missile will fly in a straight line for 2 seconds and the seeker will continue pointing 20 degrees to the left. After those 2 seconds if the missile can see your radar target within it's 10 degree FoV (the centre of which points 20 degrees to the left of the missile centre line), it will lock onto the target. If it can't see the target then the missile will not obtain a lock and will explode shortly afterwards.

Do all sparrows work like this or does the later models improve this aspect?

[Flame2512 3,384]

31 minutes ago, shanrocks1 said:

Do all sparrows work like this or does the later models improve this aspect?

 

The two sparrows in game are apparently programmed that way, the R-3R and R.530 appear to start tracking from the moment of launch.

[Zetaris 267]

10 hours ago, shanrocks1 said:

Do all sparrows work like this or does the later models improve this aspect?

 

I'm not sure about the exact differences in firing sequence between AIM-7E, E-2, F, etc., but the AIM-7E-2 with its "Dogfight mode" plug installed will provide the missile with half its original minimum range. So instead of flying straight and only activating after 1.8s, the E-2 should activate after 0.8 - 1.0s. This would give the target aircraft less time to get outside of the missile's field of view.

Edited September 6, 2020 by Zetaris

[Bydaniel857 321]

how small is 10 degrees? so i can put a plane inside those 10 degrees?

[Gatsby_WT 136]

7 hours ago, Bydaniel857 said:

how small is 10 degrees? so i can put a plane inside those 10 degrees?

I guess the problem is also that when you fire the Sparrow, it just fly straight without the gyro control, so it like falls down like it have ballistic curvature. I was playing R530ER and it has same 10 degrees but it track almost instantly so I can fully lead targets, even far from 10 degree seeker but they still track ( like if it had an uncage seeker, not like Sparrows that track after launch).

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by PhantomRiderWT

[PlumleyBT 2,979]

So far the sparrows seems to me the most random weapon in game.

The majority of the times they just flight straight and explode even with a clear path and lock.

Then i got 3 kills and they were a bit confusing, the last one the AIM-7E climbed hard to hit an enemy about 2km above me. The other 2 kills the sparrows seemed to pull out all their 15G to turn and hit the target.

[Gatsby_WT 136]

2 hours ago, PlumleyBT said:

So far the sparrows seems to me the most random weapon in game.

The majority of the times they just flight straight and explode even with a clear path and lock.

Then i got 3 kills and they were a bit confusing, the last one the AIM-7E climbed hard to hit an enemy about 2km above me. The other 2 kills the sparrows seemed to pull out all their 15G to turn and hit the target.

For me they sometimes lock a target but suddenly the missile tracks nothing and just turns left and does like half a circle until I loose lock on that target and missiles self destructs

 

[Nicolaser 2,024]

On 06/09/2020 at 15:51, Flame2512 said:

 

The two sparrows in game are apparently programmed that way, the R-3R and R.530 appear to start tracking from the moment of launch.

Seems logic since both missile are supposed to work with rail and 1 is a derivative from aim 9 while the other was supposed to share technology with ir missile

 

Sparrow were meant to be "dropped" before the engine start (not shown in game but )

[Bydaniel857 321]

2 hours ago, Nicolaser said:

Seems logic since both missile are supposed to work with rail and 1 is a derivative from aim 9 while the other was supposed to share technology with ir missile

 

Sparrow were meant to be "dropped" before the engine start (not shown in game but )

at least 0.5 positive G to launch them, they cant with 0 or negative g

[N8AHbl4 276]

aaah

[Bydaniel857 321]

more nerf?

[N8AHbl4 276]

23 minutes ago, Bydaniel857 said:

more nerf?

idk, it seems that now you can only shoot a target that flies at a subsonic+ speed directly to you
or what
looks incredibly useless
i hope i am wrong

[Flame2512 3,384]

8 minutes ago, N8AHbl4 said:

idk, it seems that now you can only shoot a target that flies at a subsonic+ speed directly to you
or what
looks incredibly useless
i hope i am wrong

Where are you getting that idea? Are the changes now live? Or is it guesswork?

[N8AHbl4 276]

34 minutes ago, Flame2512 said:

Where are you getting that idea? Are the changes now live? Or is it guesswork?

these are changes on the dev server, will appear on the live soon

Quote

idk, it seems that now you can only shoot a target that flies at a subsonic+ speed directly to you
 

and this is my attempt to explain the changes in doppler filter
apparently I'm mistaken, since the older sparrow has this parameter less

Edited September 7, 2020 by N8AHbl4

[Zetaris 267]

54 minutes ago, N8AHbl4 said:

idk, it seems that now you can only shoot a target that flies at a subsonic+ speed directly to you
or what
looks incredibly useless
i hope i am wrong

The min/max relative speed values are +/-2000m/s. So the missile can be flying towards something at Mach 4 (or ~1200m/s at 40k ft) and intercept a target flying toward the missile at about Mach 2.5 (~750m/s).

 

As for doppler speedgate search range, I don't really know. I've messed around with very small and very large values of it in user missions, but I'm not getting anything from shooting at AI (the missiles track 100% of the time, almost regardless of angle or the search range value I use).

 

However, k_stepanovich mentioned that this is more relevant to quickly accelerating/decelerating and maneuvering targets, and that the radial speed search range would be increased on AIM-7s. In other words, if a missile is launched and the target quickly changes its speed relative to the missile, the missile may not be able to see it any more (even if the target is still technically within the missile's FoV).

[SirScorpion 1,091]

Yeah its nerf as far as i can tell, you can prolly get less broken shots now with speed gate changes. but 22km head on kills are not gona happen any more. its now more like 15-10km vs non-maneuvering. the FOV change is the big thing though that is huge nerf. thrust is more inline with the real thing "more realistic better".  

 

the last 22km shot.

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by SirScorpion

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,349]

I'm more concerned about the AIM-7s not receiving their correct G loads yet..

[Bydaniel857 321]

5 hours ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

I'm more concerned about the AIM-7s not receiving their correct G loads yet..

yeah same
btw, more changes

[PlumleyBT 2,979]

Radar doesnt work at all for me. I cant lock the few times i have an enemy on radar(which shows only friends the majority of times) and even then the sparrows just flight straight.

This both on F104S and F4C.

[SirScorpion 1,091]

1 hour ago, PlumleyBT said:

Radar doesnt work at all for me. I cant lock the few times i have an enemy on radar(which shows only friends the majority of times) and even then the sparrows just flight straight.

This both on F104S and F4C.

 

it ain't easy but it works, getting about 75% good shots and about 50% kills "optimal about 100%"

-Go radar narrow scope helps spot targets further. "not ACM but narrow scope"

- Try to get high, I go for 15-20k ft depending on the map.

- try and pick a target higher than you, heading towards you.

- shoot at 12km then another at 8km.

- Make sure the "Vr" indicator is high above 300. 

-try and lead the target by a few KM, atm it does not matter as much missile tracks anything in 45 degree "soon will be 15"

-ACM shots can be done but since the radar picks up targets at under 10km, thats not a huge window for a frontal shot" 

Edited September 8, 2020 by SirScorpion

[PlumleyBT 2,979]

I guess you misread me: i cant see and lock any enemy planes. no matter how far or close they are, i see on radar only friendlies, both isolated or inside the furball.

Yesterday i could lock and shoot without issues (how much reliable sparrows are is another matter).

Today in a total of about 10 battles i could only launch 1 sparrow, which just flew straight and exploded 1-1.5 km far.

[Ein79 5,749]

9 minutes ago, PlumleyBT said:

Today in a total of about 10 battles i could only launch 1 sparrow, which just flew straight and exploded 1-1.5 km far.

 

Yeah, at least 50% of my Sparrows fly straight and explode despite perfect, stable lock. And even if one tracks already my hit rate is max 3 for every 10 launched.

I have more hits with Aim-9B, really, not to mention Aim-9D or J.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Einherjer1979

[Zetaris 267]

22 hours ago, SirScorpion said:

Yeah its nerf as far as i can tell, you can prolly get less broken shots now with speed gate changes. but 22km head on kills are not gona happen any more. its now more like 15-10km vs non-maneuvering. the FOV change is the big thing though that is huge nerf. thrust is more inline with the real thing "more realistic better". 

 

 

11 hours ago, Bydaniel857 said:

yeah same
btw, more changes

 

None of these changes are live yet, you realise? Also, there haven't been any changes to seeker antenna fov. No idea where you got that idea.

 

Edit: The half-power beamwidth (or "FoV" if you will) for the AIM-7s is 10 degrees, but it's still possible for the missile to see targets outside this angle at close range.

 

17 hours ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

I'm more concerned about the AIM-7s not receiving their correct G loads yet..

 

They do have their correct G-loads. 15G is correct, not 16G. It's clear if you look at where the dotted line is on the AIM-7C SMC. 25G overload probably won't be coming until the AIM-7E-2 for reasons that k_stepanovich has already mentioned.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Zetaris