Air Domination the most misunderstood game mode in War Thunder

[PrivateRico 102]

(Apologies to everyone else, as i said, i was happy to leave it, but if they continue to bring it up, i'll continue right along.)

Lol, there you go again. Chalk another one up for ad hominems in place of an argument. Have you read the thread yet? Step one of internet arguing is understanding what is being discussed. You're failing at that at this stage.

 

That wasn't the issue. The issue was whether influencing the primary engagement would help you win. I said it would. AoC started by saying the opposite, but then changed his tune to suggest it was irrelevant.

 

So far everything points to winning the primary engagement (wherever it is) means you're more likely to win the battle.

 

 

Mate, honestly, read and learn about how the mode works before simply concluding that you are right and i am wrong. Simply put, we can show that having a decisive kill advantage correlates to winning (for causation we'd likely need heat maps etc.). Thinking that your firepower is needed elsewhere sounds like a L2P issue. If you don't get what wins AD, then best don't hammer others on the matter.

 

Dude give it up, you are a petulant child clinging to this belief.  I and everyone else you have argued with are right and you are wrong, this is not a matter of you and I but many forum members.  I have read every post you've made, each one more ignorant and stupid than the last.  If you cannot comprehend the amount of brain power and thought this game requires perhaps you should find a simpler game, perhaps checkers is more up your alley.

[Ezz777 1,493]

Dude give it up, you are a petulant child clinging to this belief.  I and everyone else you have argued with are right and you are wrong, this is not a matter of you and I but many forum members.  I have read every post you've made, each one more ignorant and stupid than the last.  If you cannot comprehend the amount of brain power and thought this game requires perhaps you should find a simpler game, perhaps checkers is more up your alley.

Lol... there you go again. You're on a roll.

 

So... in place of your ad hominems, how about you address the fact that the team that won the primary engagement won the AD battles in 5 out of 5 battles where there was a result. Which, had you read the thread was what i was saying all along. Sadly AD seemed hard to come by yesterday, but naturally i'll add to that data when i get more.

 

Or, keep up with your words, they're very entertaining.

 

"Air Domination the most misunderstood game mode in War Thunder" - it's like the OP had you in mind.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Ezz777

[RecklessWILL 495]

It was being discussed at length in another thread, but yes, the key appears to be winning the main engagement. Area denial doesn't appear very effective.

I'm a little confused as to how you come to that conclusion. If there's one fellow battling 3/4 enemy it seems difficult to call it 'area denial'?

 

Area denial is the key to AD. The problem as, as it stands anyway, that most players don't understand this and head straight for the furball. The furball is generally too low to have any bearing on the cap zone.  

 

Some AD games you'll see the whole enemy team start climbing but your own team rush in at low altitude. OMG this is frustrating. It happens. There's very little you can do in this scenario. 

 

The 'main engagement' as you call it is a misnomer. 9.5 out of ten times this 'main engagement' is redundant to the outcome of the game. 

[Ezz777 1,493]

I'm a little confused as to how you come to that conclusion. If there's one fellow battling 3/4 enemy it seems difficult to call it 'area denial'?

 

Area denial is the key to AD. The problem as, as it stands anyway, that most players don't understand this and head straight for the furball. The furball is generally too low to have any bearing on the cap zone.  

 

Some AD games you'll see the whole enemy team start climbing but your own team rush in at low altitude. OMG this is frustrating. It happens. There's very little you can do in this scenario. 

Except area denial alone doesn't usually win AD. You can deny the enemy the top of the cap zone all you like, but so far it looks like to win you need to first win the primary engagement.

 

And yes, as you point out, the key is how your team is playing it vs how the enemy is playing it. If your area denial leaves doesn't influence the primary engagement, then chances are you'll end up significantly outnumbered and all your work won't have helped your team. And yes, that's probably because your team sucked. But this then points to whether you should be denying the enemy up high, or helping your team wherever the primary engagement is happening. Noting that that engagement often starts in the actual cap zone.

 

The 'main engagement' as you call it is a misnomer. 9.5 out of ten times this 'main engagement' is redundant to the outcome of the game. 

Do you have any data to back that up? So far 5 out of 5 results in AD went to the team that decisively won that primary engagement. 'Redundant' would certainly not be the word i'd choose. Moreover, not once in the games i had yesterday did the team that lost the primary engagement win the battle.

 

Basically we're at an impasse. One theory supported by data, and another supported by opinion. I'd rather they just shelve their pride and move forward with something constructive about how to win the battle. But sadly they seem sold on refuting what can be shown with data. I'm not even sure why they are so invested in this. It's a new mode after all. Everyone needs to learn it. Even the pros.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Ezz777

[App4that@psn 1,988]

OK, enough of the personal attacks on both sides of this please. Discuss the topic or warnings will be issued.

[LoserRoccii888 735]

In AirDom Matches i´ve been up to 7 000m when i fought with my J2M3 against a K4 or G10 or other Planes like Spitfires LF MkIX or MkXIV or both Bearcats.

Normally i look that i go up to 4500m and than i look what is going on downwards. Altitude is important for the overview of the Enemies but sometimes when it´s cloudy in a Match doesn´t help you to climb up. Only when the End is near the Bombers come out and than you can earn them like potatoes.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Roccii888

[Ezz777 1,493]

Maybe it would help people understand the mode better would be to go thru a simple decision a player needs to address. The key premise that winning the primary engagement is what usually wins the battle. Some feel it's irrelevant, so i guess we'll just go with a YMMV. If you're keen to check, grab your post battle results and count the kills. So far i'm yet to see any team win an AD battle without a decisive kill advantage.

 

So in line with the 'altitude denial' discussion maybe we can put ourselves in the seat of a newly spawned player. Your main choices are to either contest higher alt, or to try to help in the primary engagement. If you've already lost high alt, trying to retake it is likely going to be a bad move. But conveniently there is usually nice group of lower energy targets on a platter. Given AD is mostly a battle of attrition (as above, opinions appear to differ, so ymmv), the choice should be pretty clear. Even better is that staying well below their high alt stuff effectively takes them out of the battle.

 

About the only time the primary engagement would not be your primary concern is if your team has no one in the cap. Luckily this is very rare in the early parts of the battle. Up until one team wins that battle of attrition, you will be better off trying to help your team win it.

 

Hopefully this is making sense.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Ezz777

[trout0r 1,098]

It was being discussed at length in another thread, but yes, the key appears to be winning the main engagement. Area denial doesn't appear very effective.

My battle is a poor one to use as an example, 3 of us realised he was the only threat to our altitude superiority so two of us chased him up to about 7000m before giving up (me because I needed to get a kill before we won as I had a gold wager going) and the other guy simply because he was now so high he would have to come down to be relevant. Essentially he won the altitude battle, but we won area denial as he always had to stay above US and that meant out of the cap zone. Whilst we were close enough to influence the furball. It's a bad example because the sides were stacked, we were a 3 man premade and he was one solo player who's entire team (bar a few) furballed ALL game and got wrecked. I don't know how the map ended but when I last looked my squad had 4+kills each despite wasting all that early time and he hadn't got a kill yet. Not because he was a bad pilot, quite the contrary he was the only threat it's just that all three of us constantly had our eye on him which makes it pretty hard. Like I said I am not sure if he got a kill in the end, but he lost because his team failed, he was actually still alive when we capped it's just he was above the cap zone and realised it was futile to resist the inevitable (he could have dived in and stopped the cap one or twice, but after that he would be dead like the rest of his team).

 

I'm a little confused as to how you come to that conclusion. If there's one fellow battling 3/4 enemy it seems difficult to call it 'area denial'?

 

Area denial is the key to AD. The problem as, as it stands anyway, that most players don't understand this and head straight for the furball. The furball is generally too low to have any bearing on the cap zone.  

 

Some AD games you'll see the whole enemy team start climbing but your own team rush in at low altitude. OMG this is frustrating. It happens. There's very little you can do in this scenario. 

 

The 'main engagement' as you call it is a misnomer. 9.5 out of ten times this 'main engagement' is redundant to the outcome of the game. 

I pretty much agree with this. If you are solo all your team all dives, and 3+ of their team climb to alt, I have a slow sinking feeling that my team is pretty potato...

 

Maybe it would help people understand the mode better would be to go thru a simple decision a player needs to address. The key premise that winning the primary engagement is what usually wins the battle. Some feel it's irrelevant, so i guess we'll just go with a YMMV. If you're keen to check, grab your post battle results and count the kills. So far i'm yet to see any team win an AD battle without a decisive kill advantage.

 

So in line with the 'altitude denial' discussion maybe we can put ourselves in the seat of a newly spawned player. Your main choices are to either contest higher alt, or to try to help in the primary engagement. If you've already lost high alt, trying to retake it is likely going to be a bad move. But conveniently there is usually nice group of lower energy targets on a platter. Given AD is mostly a battle of attrition (as above, opinions appear to differ, so ymmv), the choice should be pretty clear. Even better is that staying well below their high alt stuff effectively takes them out of the battle.

 

About the only time the primary engagement would not be your primary concern is if your team has no one in the cap. Luckily this is very rare in the early parts of the battle. Up until one team wins that battle of attrition, you will be better off trying to help your team win it.

 

Hopefully this is making sense.

1. I mostly agree, an overall kill advantage is definitely a key to winning. I think what the others are saying is that you can influence that MORE by dominating the high alt and then picking off furballers as you please. Certainly as a squad that has lead to almost 100% success (I remember one defeat where a member got himself in a pickle and foolishly the other 2-3 (including me) ALL went to help and we lost the alt and one of their bombers capped... (thanks team).

2. As a solo player you are 100% right. If they have properly secured the altitude it is pretty much suicide to try to take it back alone. Although if I am solo and in a really bad furballing plane I will often side climb to ~5KM and try to retake the alt, mostly successful unless against a large premade squad.

3. These sting, all you can hope is that someone on your team has the common sense to stop the cap.

Edited May 18, 2015 by trout0r

[LT_Nawhead 164]

This thread is super unhelpful. It should have started by actually addressing the OP's plight.

 

The cap zone is between 750 and 4750 meters. You'll know you're in the zone when the 'A' below the blue and red bar up on top of the screen has 4 white dots around it. Go forth and prosper, gents.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNU-Wyiyl_4

 

[edit: posted wrong video]

Edited May 18, 2015 by LT_Nawhead

[Ezz777 1,493]

I pretty much agree with this. If you are solo all your team all dives, and 3+ of their team climb to alt, I have a slow sinking feeling that my team is pretty potato...

Not always. The point about this is that if you can get a significant kill advantage, you are likely to win the battle. Now how or where you get the kills is going to depend at least in part on where the enemy is. For instance I certainly wouldln't advise diving into a furball that your team already has under control.

 

 

1. I mostly agree, an overall kill advantage is definitely a key to winning. I think what the others are saying is that you can influence that MORE by dominating the high alt and then picking off furballers as you please.

Well no, they were mostly just saying i was wrong. I said you should try to influence the primary engagement. And it should be noted that it's entirely possible to do this without lawn mowing yourself, all while maintaining a presence in cap.

 

 

2. As a solo player you are 100% right. If they have properly secured the altitude it is pretty much suicide to try to take it back alone. Although if I am solo and in a really bad furballing plane I will often side climb to ~5KM and try to retake the alt, mostly successful unless against a large premade squad.

It will be plane specific as well as dependent on what alt they have controlled. I find very few high cover planes will dive to the 1 - 2km sort of level. From there you can still BnZ the ball while still preventing cap. The point is mixing your plane's attributes (clearly not everything is a zero) with what needs to be done to win the battle.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Ezz777

[trout0r 1,098]

This thread is super unhelpful. It should have started by actually addressing the OP's plight.

What's his plight? He says he used to hate air dom now he likes it but that he is confused why a lot of people play like chickens with their heads chopped off? He doesn't ask how to win it :p

 

Not always. The point about this is that if you can get a significant kill advantage, you are likely to win the battle. Now how or where you get the kills is going to depend at least in part on where the enemy is. For instance I certainly wouldln't advise diving into a furball that your team already has under control.

 

 

Well no, they were mostly just saying i was wrong. I said you should try to influence the primary engagement. And it should be noted that it's entirely possible to do this without lawn mowing yourself, all while maintaining a presence in cap.

 

 

It will be plane specific as well as dependent on what alt they have controlled. I find very few high cover planes will dive to the 1km sort of level. From there you can still BnZ the ball. The point is mixing your plane's attributes (clearly not everything is a zero) with what needs to be done to win the battle.

1. I've had a fair few solo games where me and a few others dominate the alt all game, but the rest of our team loses the furball. In my experience it's pretty 50/50 from this point. Those of us will often have 8+ kills at that point and be out numbered, but when people spawn bombers or try to climb up to engage us they continue to get picked off and we can win. I've won games where the furballers have had a 2:1 advantage, say 8 of them vs 4 of us. That said if we lose it's generally because the 4 panicked (or some of them) when missing a pass and ended up at furball level or having to dive far away. The other way you can lose from that point is when one of the 4 finally gets picked off and refuses to hop in a new plane because it might be detrimental to their stats further outnumbering you.

 

2. I don't think they could argue against what you put forth there as that is clearly logical and obvious :)

 

3. For sure.

[Ezz777 1,493]

2. I don't think they could argue against what you put forth there as that is clearly logical and obvious :)

That's what i thought.

 

1. I've had a fair few solo games where me and a few others dominate the alt all game, but the rest of our team loses the furball. In my experience it's pretty 50/50 from this point. Those of us will often have 8+ kills at that point and be out numbered, but when people spawn bombers or try to climb up to engage us they continue to get picked off and we can win. I've won games where the furballers have had a 2:1 advantage, say 8 of them vs 4 of us. That said if we lose it's generally because the 4 panicked (or some of them) when missing a pass and ended up at furball level or having to dive far away. The other way you can lose from that point is when one of the 4 finally gets picked off and refuses to hop in a new plane because it might be detrimental to their stats further outnumbering you.

And to be clear, i wouldn't say high alt is irrelevant, as it does at least limit the enemies options, but it clearly isn't the be all and end all. Again without heat maps it's hard to demonstrate where the kills are occurring but given the general observation is that a considerable number of enemies tend to engage centrally, it follows that most of the kills are going to be there.

 

 

This thread is super unhelpful. It should have started by actually addressing the OP's plight.

A little thin on analysis, but it should be helpful for some. I liked the way the opponents kept trying to contest high alt. I wish every enemy team was that stupid. I would have liked to see the post battle results tho. Without them it says nothing of why their team won, but more that contesting high alt can get you kills if they are silly enough. I would have liked to have seen a 'and if no one climbs, this is what you should do to influence the battle'. As is it was a very narrow assessment.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Ezz777

[LT_Nawhead 164]

What's his plight? He says he used to hate air dom now he likes it but that he is confused why a lot of people play like chickens with their heads chopped off? He doesn't ask how to win it :p

 

OP: "When I first played Air Dom I found it confusing and really didn't like it. [...] it seems the most misunderstood game mode by far. [...] I see players who have not a single idea that the cap zone has altitude limits and, no matter what you're doing, if you're too low you are wasting your's and your team's efforts and time."

 

The plight being the player base is uneducated about how to win this mode, not that the OP doesn't understand the rules himself.

 

Cap zone is between 750 and 4750 meters. And yes, I too am part of that uneducated player base. I've been flying around half the time above 5000 wondering why my team sucks... *sigh*

Edited May 18, 2015 by LT_Nawhead

[Ezz777 1,493]

 I've been flying around half the time above 5000 wondering why my team sucks... *sigh*

 

Like this one?

http://youtu.be/5RRuuE6Yhoc?list=PLuSIUQRYEJmKgo4hHxs7SZ5d3ZmQNRgcd&t=1075

Dominates high alt, team loses primary engagement, he gets forced out.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Ezz777

[Franigo 2,253]

It was being discussed at length in another thread, but yes, the key appears to be winning the main engagement. Area denial doesn't appear very effective.

 

If that were true, I would not win a fair chunk of games by capping while the "main engagement" is still running and actually sucking planes below the cap zone. Despite it being relatively easy to deny the other team the cap, too many players either do not know how or do not bother. Winning that way does not feel great, by the way, since it does not depend on your own skill - staying between 800 and 4800m does not really constitute skill, does it? -, but on the ineptitude of others.

[Ezz777 1,493]

If that were true, I would not win a fair chunk of games by capping while the "main engagement" is still running and actually sucking planes below the cap zone. Despite it being relatively easy to deny the other team the cap, too many players either do not know how or do not bother. Winning that way does not feel great, by the way, since it does not depend on your own skill - staying between 800 and 4800m does not really constitute skill, does it? -, but on the ineptitude of others.

I'm interested in the 'fair chunk'. But yes, it's absolutely possible to cap prior to a the primary engagement completing, but given how easy it is to stop a cap that appears so far very rare. Of the 6 i played yesterday tho, none were won prior to a decisive advantage in planes was achieved. (i used a 10 plane advantage as the arbitrary guideline fwiw)

 

Further, when a result was reached occurred the winner had 58 (+12 advantage), 71 (14), 83 (13), 63 (12), 77 (23) kills. Noting this doesn't mean you are winning by leaving no planes left (altho that happens too) but it means the the advantage is enough to then cap.

 

The draw was 67 - 59 (8)

Edited May 18, 2015 by Ezz777

[long5hot 7,302]

If that were true, I would not win a fair chunk of games by capping while the "main engagement" is still running and actually sucking planes below the cap zone. Despite it being relatively easy to deny the other team the cap, too many players either do not know how or do not bother. Winning that way does not feel great, by the way, since it does not depend on your own skill - staying between 800 and 4800m does not really constitute skill, does it? -, but on the ineptitude of others.

You're totally right, winning via zone denial is simply exploiting the ineptitude of the majority of the opposing team and does not require skill at all. Same as landing on a runway doesn't take skill, nor pressing spacebar over tank columns & minibases for that matter. At least the mode designers are consistent in this regard ;)

[Ezz777 1,493]

You're totally right, winning via zone denial is simply exploiting the ineptitude of the majority of the opposing team and does not require skill at all. Same as landing on a runway doesn't take skill, nor pressing spacebar over tank columns & minibases for that matter. At least the mode designers are consistent in this regard ;)

Indeed, as it stands now, the team that abuses the ineptitude of the pubbies most effectively usually wins. My guess is that as more and more pubbies learn how the mode works, the meta could change again from its current attrition style battle.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Ezz777

[*GateNomes 1,770]

All the more reason they should allow players to pick the modes they wish to play in Arcade.  Some here clearly love Air Dom.  Others (such as myself) love the traditional, riskier, Airfield Dom.  And bomber lovers want to bomb targets in Ground Strike missions.  If you had all players playing a game mode type who CHOSE to be there in the first place... now you have some seriously cool matchups happening, and not some bomber pilots for example quitting off a team at the start of Air Dom (for obvious reasons on their end)... and the team that has less bomber pilots has the numbers advantage suddenly.  Seems to be luck of the draw when it comes to team composition for each game mode - which sometimes (unfortunately) will decide the outcome of certain matches.

 

Some of the greatest matches I've ever played in Arcade were extremely competitive Airfield Domination matches where both teams were fighting extremely hard for the win right til the last ticket.  I've been part of some incredible comebacks in that mode that I'll never forget.  If I could always play that game mode with 31 other pilots wanting the win there as bad as I do... I would probably play more Arcade Air again in spite of being an RB/SB guy these days.  Those difficult, close Airfield Dom matches were definitely some of the greatest highlights of my War Thunder career.

[long5hot 7,302]

All the more reason they should allow players to pick the modes they wish to play in Arcade.

The problem with choice is that one of the modes, Ground Strike, is badly designed with too few targets which are too widely spread out & therefore impossible to defend. Hence, Ground Strike is won by the team fielding the most bombers/attackers and the efforts of fighters are usually irrelevant. If there was choice, very few bomber pilots would choose to play any other mode whereas many fighter pilots would choose to avoid it. Hence the chances are GS would quickly devolve into 2-3 minute races to kill the AI tank columns before the other team, and I can't see anyone really finding that enjoyable in the long run.

Which means that the only reason choice isn't offered is to stop this from happening. Were all of the game modes more equally balanced with valid roles for all plane types, then a choice could & should be offered.
 

Some of the greatest matches I've ever played in Arcade were extremely competitive Airfield Domination matches where both teams were fighting extremely hard for the win right til the last ticket.  I've been part of some incredible comebacks in that mode that I'll never forget.

Before Gaijin introduced "gremlins", a script that makes ground targets kill each other and/or self destruct, and before they severely reduced the number of ground targets & hence tickets that needed to be reduced in order to end the battle, there were many Ground Strike games that went right down to the wire with last minute comebacks and desperate attempts by the last bomber to reach the final pillbox before the enemy fighters ran him down. Sadly that's all gone now.

Air Dom isn't really a mode where comebacks can happen, as neither team gets ahead until one manages to cap, and then its all over. Edited May 18, 2015 by long5hot

[Ezz777 1,493]

 

Air Dom isn't really a mode where comebacks can happen, as neither team gets ahead until one manages to cap, and then its all over.

Well no. A team gets ahead by winning the battle of attrition. It may be hard to recognise this, but it's what is happening. Granted, if you're sticking to high alt you probably don't appreciate what's going on well below.

 

Maybe if they included a kill counter it would be easier for people to get this. If it ties into an 'anti-draw' mechanism even better.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Ezz777

[Franigo 2,253]

I'm interested in the 'fair chunk'.

 

Well, as with all game modes, I win more Air Dominations than I lose, roughly two-thirds. Of those, enough are derp wins like that for me to notice. Most are down to attrition, to which I play my part by winning altitude and slaying every red that does not dive low, but I certainly do not win due to attrition all the time.

 

You're totally right, winning via zone denial is simply exploiting the ineptitude of the majority of the opposing team and does not require skill at all. Same as landing on a runway doesn't take skill, nor pressing spacebar over tank columns & minibases for that matter. At least the mode designers are consistent in this regard ;)

 

I did not want to sound as if this was only true for Air Domination. It affects all modes, but with Air Domination it is probably more noticeable due to the winning conditions. I cannot tell how many GS I lost because the bombers on my team insisted on bombing the airfield while the reds took out GTs when one good bombing run on GTs would have won the game.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Franigo

[Ezz777 1,493]

I guess the other side of the coin is if you're winning many / any when the attrition battle was lost (as opposed to unresolved). That was how one fellow felt he won most...

[Franigo 2,253]

I guess the other side of the coin is if you're winning many / any when the attrition battle was lost (as opposed to unresolved). That was how one fellow felt he won most...

 

I've done that, winning the game despite being outnumbered due to my team getting all but wiped out, but most of those games happened when I was flying with my squadron mate. Then it is much easier to accomplish since you can cover each other and be much more aggressive. But those wins are certainly not the norm for me.

 

Ironically, the furball only matters if there are players on both teams that do not furball. If one team lacks those, it will lose.

[Ezz777 1,493]

Ironically, the furball only matters if there are players on both teams that do not furball. If one team lacks those, it will lose.

The nature of the re spawn means you'll almost never have everyone below the cap. I'll need to time it from death to getting back into cap at some point. I'd guess maybe 40 seconds so enough time to cap, but not easily and typically only once there are few others trying to get in. Hence why getting a decisive advantage in the battle attrition is usually a key to success.

 

The one where we ended with a 23 planes advantage needed a rush to get back to cap at one point. Most everyone was enjoying the feeding frenzy and so for at least 10 - 15 seconds cap was empty. That didn't last long however.

 

Incidentally, does anyone recall what alt you spawn at?

Edited May 18, 2015 by Ezz777