Ground vehicles 128mm APDS (treibspiegelgeschoss mit H-kern)

[Ruslan_DR 686]

Subsection, based on what we know about the round to this point.

 

What it looks like;

'

 

Football shape, resembling late soviet APHE rounds.

 

Type; APDS

Shell parts; Contains a sub-caliber core made out of a modified 8.8cm Pzgr.40/43 (likely around the same weight, as the football shape meant that it was elongated or had metal removed, but likely elongated, with the metal removed to fit the sabot being used around the frontal section to create a stabilization ring.)

Penetration; in the range of around 390 - 370mm of armor flat, and point blank. using the Pzgr 39 as a base.|

According to document below (essentially confirmed); 245mm @ 30 degrees, from 1000 meters

 

- Pzgr 39 was used for this test because it appears to be a match-up for the APDS pictured, the document only states "if possible" to use APCR as it's sabot, but this is not explicitly shown in the photograph, it bears the wrong shape.

 

shell weight; Unknown

Explosive filler; Unknown 

expected muzzle velocity; 1260 M/s

 

This is probably the one thing that would need to be added, and German players would stop caring about whatever tanks are thrown their way, even the IS-7 would be a joke with this monstrous shell.
 
This started off a while ago in another thread (waaaay back when I didn't know that suggestions existed.)
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/258001-128-mm-guns-need-better-ammo/
 
Long story short, Shibiwan brought to my attention an experimental APDS round for the maus (and therefore, also Jagdtiger) called the "treibspiegelgeschoss mit H-kern" which can be found in some book (not sure which book, but this is a scan) about German munitions. 
 
 
The round uses Pzgr. 40, 88mm munition as a Sabot, and is capable of penetrating 245mm of armor.
 
you know.... at 30 degrees....
 
.... from a kilometer away.
  
'
 

 
Behold, in the book of sabots! http://www.lexpev.nl/downloads/geschossringbuch.pdf
While this does not directly list the 128 mm Pzgr.44 as part of the book, it DOES however, show a 10.5 cm sabot round in band 2, (chapter/section 2, in the middle of the book.) The round is called the "10,5 cm PzGr. 39 (TS)" and clearly shows a sabot round, with the document dating back as far as the war. (as seen below)

 

Therefore, it is entirely possible that 12.8 cm APDS would have been introduced for the maus, had the war not ended so soon.
 
This is the last thread I'm gonna post for a while, I have way too many ideas lately. But, this one I think has a chance of being implemented, sorry I couldn't find much more detail, perhaps someone can find more on it, with more connections to history books than I have.

 

User contributions will be written in gold, and also have names, so if anyone asks for specifics, they know who to reference.
 
Here are a couple sources found by "TheJoker1432"
 
http://www.miniatures.de/anti-tank-weapons-german.html < Under the section "Tank and anti-tank guns." 
 
       Tank and Anti-tank Guns             |           projectile             | penetration
 
12.8 cm L.55 KwK 44 & PaK 44    |      A.P.H.E. (Pz.Gr.)  |   230 mm
12.8 cm L.55 KwK 44 & PaK 44    |  A.P.H.E. (Pz.Gr. 43) |   227 mm
12.8 cm L.55 KwK 44 & PaK 44    |         A.P. (1944)        |   253 mm
12.8 cm L.55 KwK 44 & PaK 44    |     A.P.C.R. (1944)     |  350 mm
12.8 cm L.55 KwK 44 & PaK 44    |  A.P.D.S. (Pz.Gr. 44) |  400 mm
 
Main armament of the Jagdtiger tank destroyer

12.8 cm L.61 K 40 | A.P.H.E. (Pz.Gr.) | 244 mm

12.8 cm L.61 K 40 | A.P.D.S. (Pz.Gr. 44) | 443 mm
__________________________________________________________________________________
   
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=175961 - This one doesn't say anything about 128mm, but does however state the existence of a 10.5 cm round, which could be useful for the 10.5 tiger, 
 
German APDS ammunition was being developed all throughout the war mainly by Krupp and Rheinmetall, and hundreds of designs were made, but the main part never went beyond the development stage.
The only APDS shell i know off that was actually developed and finished, was the 10,5 cm Pzgr. 39 (ts), which was shot by the 10,5 cm le.F.H. 18.
It is mentioned in the official ammunition "Ringbücher" but i think it only reached the troops for combattesting and was never handed out in great numbers.
This shell was basically a changed 7,5 cm Pzgr 39 fitted with a sabot and front support ring.
This method of using and remodelling existing shells was done quit often, and main "donors" were often 7,5 cm Pzgr 39 or 8,8 cm Pzgr 39 APHE shells.
 
The other three links, besides the first, did not really show off 128mm APDS, however.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

Contribution by "Conraire" further supporting the existence of such rounds during the second world war, making it entirely possible for a 128 mm round to have been made.

 

Due to there only being one maus that exists, and the destruction of others, as well as plans to prevent capture, this likely means that any prototype 128mm rounds would have been destroyed, meaning that from here on information for it may be difficult to find. why would it have been destroyed when other 128mm guns existed? See the first document, where it specifically states the round was to be developed for the maus.

 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________

User "DonHornegger" has contributed an image which clearly shows an existing round, proving the whole "no surviving examples" thing I just said entirely wrong, well done.; 

 

 

Image was part of a series taken from REAL ammunitions found on the German Bomb disposal team's firing range, meaning that the 12.8 round does exist, and this is undeniable proof.

 

Users Arczer and JG_illuminas have provided calculations, as well as a prototype of the round in action. While it is not perfect, it is something.

 

for now i got

using 7% APDS mod = 390mm

using 1.7% (i forgot with one is good) = 370mm

with 0.95x mod for possible DeMarre errors

7% = 370mm

1.7% = 351mm

 

i used conversion for 245mm @ 30 degree at 1km done by JG27_Iluminas with give 322mm @ 0 degree at 1km ( i always forget about that converting using German standards, at last not this time), stability and velocity changes for 88mm pzgr 40/43 core from APCR to APDS (APDS is more stable than APCR). with gives me 351mm at point blank (350mm was posted on that topic with is close), value of drop over distance was based on 88mm pzgr 40/43 with improved stability (i compared loss from 1km as we know that values for both shells at that distance) so smaller penetration drop over distance (at last for 1km).

video from test 1.7% with 0.95x mod

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ru1Zb23WO4

 

here are penetration figures

      ArmorPower0m:p2=351.0
      ArmorPower100m:p2=350.0
      ArmorPower250m:p2=345.0
      ArmorPower500m:p2=339.0
      ArmorPower750m:p2=330.0
      ArmorPower1000m:p2=322.0
      ArmorPower1250m:p2=306.0
      ArmorPower1500m:p2=293.0
      ArmorPower2000m:p2=271.0
      ArmorPower2500m:p2=242.0

      ArmorPower3000m:p2=200.0

Edited February 18, 2016 by Ruslan_DR

[CokeSpray 7,274]

Open for discussion. :salute:

[Draken_lord 9,320]

Yes please. It would only be fair since german tanks are facing things with absurd ammunition.

[TheJoker1432 1,974]

This Idea really has a chance to balance the high tiers a little more.
Instead of trying to add a competitive vehicle for germany well just fix the existing ones.
This shell for the Maus, Jagdtiger and tge E 100 would allow them to atleast have a comparable gun.And it would be even more or less realistic since instead of inventing the E50 or E75 or a Heat round we can just take what germany would have done

[RohmMohc 11,494]

was already suggested to BVV... "If we get more informations" was the answer)))))))) meanwhile single source about 130 cheeks on the IS-2 Mods front armour: Implemented... dozen sources about Maus Turret... not implemented))))))xaxaxa))))))

[TheJoker1432 1,974]

These are the things i could find:

http://www.miniatures.de/anti-tank-weapons-german.html

http://ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/panzergranate-44-german-apfsds-24115.html

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=175961

https://books.google.de/books?id=-sXFBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT1289&lpg=PT1289&dq=german+128mm+apds&source=bl&ots=f7VdmUwCHl&sig=1BPhYSYvr6nI9sziv9B5D-t7D78&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0CIIBEOgBMAlqFQoTCMPolqr_88gCFQG0FAodxBQGAw#v=onepage&q=german%20128mm%20apds&f=false

[Ruslan_DR 686]

Updated with more data, including SEKRIT DOKUMENT for Germany that even says they experimented with nuclear HEAT rounds in 1942/43

[igeticsu 3,400]

YES! Finally some decent german penetration at top tier! 

[Naam54673 1,537]

No.Experimental ammo should be left to the other game.

[RohmMohc 11,494]

No.Experimental ammo should be left to the other game.

then please take yer time travelling ammo with ye

[FloatplaneRammer 1,736]

No.Experimental ammo should be left to the other game.

In terms of realism in this game, there's not much left to lose...

 

Anyways I support. +1

[Naam54673 1,537]

In terms of realism in this game, there's not much left to lose...

not much is better than nothing.

then please take yer time travelling ammo with ye

[Conraire 5,723]

I voted  yes.  But, that's simply because I know for a fact the Americans captured many examples of German APDS development rounds when they captured certain test facilities.  One of the books I have on German ammunition discusses many apds rounds of WW2 design.  Had the War gone on longer, it's almost a guarantee they would of seen use as far along as they were. 

[Obirzoe 1,899]

I support this since it will balance high tier for germany without fantasy blueprint tanks and solves many problems since in tier 5 it is essential who shoots first armor isn't really relevant and therefore equalling the guns performance wise with this shell could help. The T54s and IS4/T10M are still more maneuverable and a smaller target than a Maus/E100/JT so we could call it even. There are already a lot of strange rounds ingame like post war ammo on an IS2 1944 so why not use this for the sake of balance instead of adding t54 and pattons to the german tree since DDR and BRD used them. I would be much more satisfied with this sollution so we could keep the high tier german tanks instead of copy and past the existing RU and US ones.

 

Thumbs up :salute:

[Ruslan_DR 686]

I voted  yes.  But, that's simply because I know for a fact the Americans captured many examples of German APDS development rounds when they captured certain test facilities.  One of the books I have on German ammunition discusses many apds rounds of WW2 design.  Had the War gone on longer, it's almost a guarantee they would of seen use as far along as they were. 

 

Do you happen to have a page in there that mentions the 12.8 stuff? Because if so, scan it and put the stats up here, the devs will have no choice but to add it!

[Conraire 5,723]

Do you happen to have a page in there that mentions the 12.8 stuff? Because if so, scan it and put the stats up here, the devs will have no choice but to add it!

 

I'm looking through it again to see if it lists any kind of performance or specifics on the 128.  Most of the info is from the capture of Hillersleben proving grounds.  They had sabot rounds there apparently for pretty much every German gun in service at the time, either in testing or getting ready to be fully tested.. 

Edited November 4, 2015 by Conraire

[Ruslan_DR 686]

I'm looking through it again to see if it lists any kind of performance or specifics on the 128.  Most of the info is from the capture of Hillersleben proving grounds.  They had sabot rounds there apparently for pretty much every German gun in service at the time, either in testing or getting ready to be fully tested.. 

 

WELP, TIME FOR PANTHER A APDS. \ :v /

 

 

but seriously, if you do find anything, add a reference to the book, page number, and the name of the round plus it's penetration table.

[ThrustVector 1,291]

No.Experimental ammo should be left to the other game.

 

I'm known to not support most prototypes, but this is needed in game. 

[Backsteinziegel 75]

If the damn IS2 1944 gets post war ammo(1956 was it?), the germans should definitely get their experimental ammo aswell. +1

[OBC_BirdGunner 148]

Tier 5 is dead, it is only a drop on a hot stone when you add the ammo for the WW2 tanks to fight against Tanks produced and or delivered after 1955.

 

that a Maus and or a Tiger would battle against a IS3 tank would be fully ok for me, but later Tanks like a IS4 and IS10 is a absolut no go for me. this is also true for the US Tanks.

[Gods_hammer 2,717]

yes +1

[Zemosu 646]

+1 that would certainly cast away part of the Russian Bias shadow off of War Thunder.

[Stronk_Memes 111]

Oh my goodness, YES PLEASE. Germany needs something aside from the Leopard's shells that can reliably penetrate Russian heavies, seeing as how Russian heavies can slaughter any German tank from any distance at any side. It's only fair. This needs to be added.

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

Inb4 this is added as a round for E-100....

 

 

Then it would be faster, have roughly equivalent armor, and pack a massive punch! :)

 

 

Oh, and voted yes, for a 90% vote :)

Edited November 4, 2015 by BlitzkriegWulf

[NightWolf99 30]

If the damn IS2 1944 gets post war ammo(1956 was it?), the germans should definitely get their experimental ammo aswell. +1

 

 

Yep!!! at least the 128mm APDS round was developed FOR the Maus, Jagd,E100 unlike the post ww2 ammo BR471D for IS2 Mod 44 which was developed for IS4, they should at least have the decency to call it IS2 mod 1950.

 

This 128mm APDS would help a lot combat the unfairness in tier5 for GER but not completely because the ww2 JAGD and Maus are just too big and slow to be competitive in RB, in AB they would be good with this APDS, MUCH NEEDED.

 

Really interested to see if this will be implemented, should not take a lot of development for it...