Ground vehicles 128mm APDS (treibspiegelgeschoss mit H-kern)

[Ruslan_DR 686]

Inb4 this is added as a round for E-100....

 

 

Look back at the  second document "Sabot rounds cannot be used on guns with muzzle breaks" because the discarding sabot on the back of the round would get stuck in the muzzle break and likely cause you to blow off your gun. I suppose it also depends on muzzle break, 

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

Look back at the  second document "Sabot rounds cannot be used on guns with muzzle breaks" because the discarding sabot on the back of the round would get stuck in the muzzle break and likely cause you to blow off your gun. I suppose it also depends on muzzle break, 

 

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/272732-development-pzkpfw-e-100-with-developers-answers/#entry5313002

 

Read Thulle's note at the bottom.

 

 

The E-100 will not have a break, although in the 1.53 release teaser, at the very end, the E-100 still had a break. Who knows...

Edited November 5, 2015 by BlitzkriegWulf

[bellezza03 6,009]

Yes. Gib this beast round

[Choogleblitz 10,205]

I'm all for it, it's just a shame the information is vague. It's one of those rounds with such a small area of usefulness that it won't change much gameplay wise. I'd even go as far as saying if the Maus, E 100, Jagdtiger, and Tiger II 105 got APDS, it wouldn't do much to benefit them, but hey, in 2% of fights it can be useful. I mean, if you really think it'll blast an IS-7, good luck fighting even a T-10M with it. 

 

 

If the damn IS2 1944 gets post war ammo(1956 was it?), the germans should definitely get their experimental ammo aswell. +1

 

Yeah, roll that date back 9 years and you pretty much got it correct. Also, it's fighting vehicles at its own BR (and below) that were put into service well after the date that the BR-471D was serviced to units.

 

Yep!!! at least the 128mm APDS round was developed FOR the Maus, Jagd,E100 unlike the post ww2 ammo BR471D for IS2 Mod 44 which was developed for IS4, they should at least have the decency to call it IS2 mod 1950.

 

This 128mm APDS would help a lot combat the unfairness in tier5 for GER but not completely because the ww2 JAGD and Maus are just too big and slow to be competitive in RB, in AB they would be good with this APDS, MUCH NEEDED.

 

Really interested to see if this will be implemented, should not take a lot of development for it...

 

The round is developed for a cannon, not a vehicle. Such logic applies to the PaK 44 as it does to the D-25.

[DonHornegger 723]

how is this for proof? 

 

and im all for it! 

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

how is this for proof? 

 

and im all for it! 

 

 

So is that an actual projectile, or was it a reproduction/after-the-fact thing? I mean..... doesn't really look original because they're all painted green.... 

 

 

Or is it a protective coating to help preserve it?

[Ruslan_DR 686]

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/272732-development-pzkpfw-e-100-with-developers-answers/#entry5313002

 

Read Thulle's note at the bottom.

 

 

The E-100 will not have a break, although in the 1.53 release teaser, at the very end, the E-100 still had a break. Who knows...

 

good point. I also suppose it depends on the break, because by that logic the IS-2, and the T10 should be INCAPABLE of firing APDS

 

So is that an actual projectile, or was it a reproduction/after-the-fact thing? I mean..... doesn't really look original because they're all painted green.... 

 

 

Or is it a protective coating to help preserve it?

 

Probably, if you've ever went to places with a worse economy, such as Serbia, and been to a tank or other wartime museum, or seen statues made from industrial stuff, you'll know they use a single, protective coat of paint for all their things because it's cheaper than making it authentic. For example, I have seen (and touched) some of these things. The paint seems to be a mixture of sand and paint, with the embedded rock fragments helping against the weather, but also unfortunately making the items impossible to use. It essentially welds hinges closed and other such things, more like painting on a thick layer of concrete. ('bout 5mm.)

Edited November 5, 2015 by Ruslan_DR

[NightWolf99 30]

I'm all for it, it's just a shame the information is vague. It's one of those rounds with such a small area of usefulness that it won't change much gameplay wise. I'd even go as far as saying if the Maus, E 100, Jagdtiger, and Tiger II 105 got APDS, it wouldn't do much to benefit them, but hey, in 2% of fights it can be useful. I mean, if you really think it'll blast an IS-7, good luck fighting even a T-10M with it. 

 

 

 

Yeah, roll that date back 9 years and you pretty much got it correct. Also, it's fighting vehicles at its own BR (and below) that were put into service well after the date that the BR-471D was serviced to units.

 

 

The round is developed for a cannon, not a vehicle. Such logic applies to the PaK 44 as it does to the D-25.

 

Well yeah but the APDS was developed for the canon PAK44 that was AT THE TIME on the Maus,Jagd unlike the BR471D which indeed was developed for D25 gun (that is on IS2 and IS4) but the BR471D was developed for the D25 that was IS4 since after ww2, IS2 mod 44 was replaced with IS3 and IS4 and so the BR471D was never intended for IS2( even though they might have been compatibile),IS2 being obsolete, just for IS3,IS4 etc

[Javafox 373]

Yes please, I would like to have a chance against those damn T-10's. 

[Choogleblitz 10,205]

Well yeah but the APDS was developed for the canon PAK44 that was AT THE TIME on the Maus,Jagd unlike the BR471D which indeed was developed for D25 gun (that is on IS2 and IS4) but the BR471D was developed for the D25 that was IS4 since after ww2, IS2 mod 44 was replaced with IS3 and IS4 and so the BR471D was never intended for IS2( even though they might have been compatibile),IS2 being obsolete, just for IS3,IS4 etc

 

Uh... IS-2 Mod. 1944 was used well into the 50's where they were modernized into IS-2M's. So uh..... yeah... No. BR-471D was intended for all A-19/D-25 gun systems, and was serviced to all of them. 

 

Yes please, I would like to have a chance against those damn T-10's. 

 

You'd be better off with the APCBC.

 

 

 

 

As for the OP, 400mm @ 0 smells fishy... Very fishy.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Choogleblitz

[Ruslan_DR 686]

 

As for the OP, 400mm @ 0 smells fishy... Very fishy.

 

You have to remember, not only is it high velocity, but the leo has nearly 300, and the Maus' 128mm shell is a full 23mm wider, giving it a heavier shell weight in addition to the high velocity, likely making it able to pen more. It does seem a little extreme IMO, but I would expect more realistically around 350mm at the very least. That's not even mentioning the more streamlined, oblong shape to the shell, making it more like a football to reduce drag compared to an APDS like the 10.5 guns had (also pictured.)

Edited November 6, 2015 by Ruslan_DR

[Choogleblitz 10,205]

You have to remember, not only is it high velocity, but the leo has nearly 300, and the Maus' 128mm shell is a full 23mm wider, giving it a heavier shell weight in addition to the high velocity, likely making it able to pen more. It does seem a little extreme IMO, but I would expect more realistically around 350mm at the very least. That's not even mentioning the more streamlined, oblong shape to the shell, making it more like a football to reduce drag compared to an APDS like the 10.5 guns had (also pictured.)

 

I understand such, but I'm under the understanding that it is a 88 PzGr 40, albeit I am tired and could be reading this incorrectly. Now, in comparison, it was fired what? 60m/s faster than what the 88 fires the Gr40 at. Now, not saying that the figure is a bit high, even considering the switch to the USN standard, but 400 is quite a stretch. It has about 320,000J less than the L7's APDS. Yes, I know KE isn't everything, but I don't know about the design going past 360mm/0° on the USN standard. For a comparison, it has roughly the same design, albeit I'm not entirely sure about core size, as the 3BM8, with roughly the same KE. I would put my money on the fact that it would be performing roughly similar to the 3BM8. The 400mm/0°/10m is quite steep, very steep. The 3BM11 for example, has a stupendous amount more kinetic energy and it would penetrate 450mm/0°/10m. Nonetheless, the real key to APDS' effectiveness is its abilities at 60°, and I don't think the 128 APDS will shine very well, like the 3BM8.

 

Hell, I'm open to be proven wrong, because I'm not entirely sure with my brain's abilities on a lack of sleep.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Choogleblitz

[Ruslan_DR 686]

I understand such, but I'm under the understanding that it is a 88 PzGr 40, albeit I am tired and could be reading this incorrectly. Now, in comparison, it was fired what? 60m/s faster than what the 88 fires the Gr40 at. Now, not saying that the figure is a bit high, even considering the switch to the USN standard, but 400 is quite a stretch. It has about 320,000J less than the L7's APDS. Yes, I know KE isn't everything, but I don't know about the design going past 360mm/0° on the USN standard. For a comparison, it has roughly the same design, albeit I'm not entirely sure about core size, as the 3BM8, with roughly the same KE. I would put my money on the fact that it would be performing roughly similar to the 3BM8. The 400mm/0°/10m is quite steep, very steep. The real key to APDS' effectiveness is its abilities at 60°, and I don't think the 128 APDS will shine very well, like the 3BM8.

 

Hell, I'm open to be proven wrong, because I'm not entirely sure with my brains abilities on a lack of sleep.

it could also be due to the shorter gun barrel. The maus was not allowed to carry anything bigger (second document, just above the highlighted section.) "or we would have to redesign the entire turret, and possibly chassis." so, who knows.

 

EDIT; And to be honest I would be FULLY fine with 360, since the L7 can pen under 300 at a distance, enough to go through the front of a T-10 (Which i've done.) so this would stand a decent chance.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Ruslan_DR

[DonHornegger 723]

So is that an actual projectile, or was it a reproduction/after-the-fact thing? I mean..... doesn't really look original because they're all painted green.... 

 

 

Or is it a protective coating to help preserve it?

its not my photo I found it on the internet.

 

ill search where it is! from the language its either a german or austrian museum!

 

its from the KMRD Blaue Kuhle

 

KMRD means Kampfmittelräumdienst which is the german bomb disposal unit.

 

these rounds and other amunitions were found on theyr property/shooting range 

 

here is the link with more pics!

http://f15919.nexusboard.de/t799f64-Fundstuecke-1.html#msg11290

 

 

and yes this is a protective coating to stop further decay! they found all of these amunitions in the ground at the shooting and i think after over 40-50 years (unearthed in 2002 i think) they didnt looked that good any more so they coated them!

 

and this might also be interesting

 

 

http://f15919.nexusboard.de/t799f64-Fundstuecke-2.html#msg16564

Edited November 7, 2015 by DonHornegger

[Ruslan_DR 686]

Alright. So now that we have PROOF with a physical photograph, and ONE known, documented penetration value. Does anyone know how to calculate penetration based on all the other factors? Because If so we could fill out a table and have this sent off to the devs. 

 

 

Then we can put Ivan in his place >:V

 

.... and Kelly, he ran off with my dame!

[DoctorJest 33]

Supported with the sobering thought that the Devs won't ever implement it. Do they even care what we think? 

 

Balance would be too much to ask but this is an excellent piece of research no matter the outcome. 

[Ruslan_DR 686]

well, I found out a site that lists formulas for calculating armor pen, but it's a little wordy, perhaps someone who knows how to math better might be able to work this out?

 

http://www.combinedfleet.com/formula.htm

 

Technically that is for naval guns, but naval ships are just big amphibious tanks, so if you apply it to an armored vehicle it should work.

[BoundAngel 89]

+1!

 

picture, check

documents, check

penetration number... kinda, check

 

someone should pass this to BVV when the question thread opened again :yes:

[Choogleblitz 10,205]

well, I found out a site that lists formulas for calculating armor pen, but it's a little wordy, perhaps someone who knows how to math better might be able to work this out?

 

http://www.combinedfleet.com/formula.htm

 

Technically that is for naval guns, but naval ships are just big amphibious tanks, so if you apply it to an armored vehicle it should work.

 

You'd be better off using the Lanz-Odermatt equation.

[_Sync 1,028]

+1, There is NO REASON, why this shouldn't be included, there is sufficient data, and also Germany is LACKING at High Tier.

[Whelmy 1,970]

its not my photo I found it on the internet.

 

ill search where it is! from the language its either a german or austrian museum!

 

its from the KMRD Blaue Kuhle

 

KMRD means Kampfmittelräumdienst which is the german bomb disposal unit.

 

these rounds and other amunitions were found on theyr property/shooting range 

 

here is the link with more pics!

http://f15919.nexusboard.de/t799f64-Fundstuecke-1.html#msg11290

 

 

and yes this is a protective coating to stop further decay! they found all of these amunitions in the ground at the shooting and i think after over 40-50 years (unearthed in 2002 i think) they didnt looked that good any more so they coated them!

 

and this might also be interesting

 

 

http://f15919.nexusboard.de/t799f64-Fundstuecke-2.html#msg16564

 

Here's the PDF of that report. Primarely about squeeze bore guns it seems.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a953126.pdf

Edited November 9, 2015 by Whelmy

[_Iluminas_ 3,769]

 

 

 well most of this here (if not all) comes from my old topic that i made...........

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/210586-experimental-german-apds-ammunition/

 

 

Edit:

 

well anyway i will post tomorrow more have found some more things about the TS rounds

Edited November 9, 2015 by JG27_Iluminas

[Ruslan_DR 686]

 

 well most of this here (if not all) comes from my old topic that i made...........

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/210586-experimental-german-apds-ammunition/

 

 

Edit:

 

well anyway i will post tomorrow more have found some more things about the TS rounds

 

Sorry for topic steala Komrade! But... this does seem to be an equally comprehensive thread, and really so far we only need APDS on the 128's, this, if it has at least 300+ pen (which it no doubt does.) it will be enough to send the opposition running, and give the german's existing two top tier's a fighting chance. All we need is shell weight and penetration tables.

 

So long as we use the existing data from the first, and then some sort of ballistics formula, we can reverse it and solve for weight, then use that to calculate the values used in war thunder tables. In fact an excel spreadsheet could probably do this.

[_Iluminas_ 3,769]

Sorry for topic steala Komrade! But... this does seem to be an equally comprehensive thread, and really so far we only need APDS on the 128's, this, if it has at least 300+ pen (which it no doubt does.) it will be enough to send the opposition running, and give the german's existing two top tier's a fighting chance. All we need is shell weight and penetration tables.

 

So long as we use the existing data from the first, and then some sort of ballistics formula, we can reverse it and solve for weight, then use that to calculate the values used in war thunder tables. In fact an excel spreadsheet could probably do this.

no proplem ;)s  just wanted to point it out

 

well as i said tomorrowi will post somr things i think i will also do something with the pen  and why it is atleast 350mm

[Ruslan_DR 686]

I'm just gonna say, I almost can't believe how well the community responded and pulled together to make this what will eventually be a reality. Thanks, guys, this will help a lot of people frustrated with T10's. Finally, you can go straight through their hulls, and possibly even the IS-4 will become an easy target, balancing out our games and making it fun for everyone, not just the soviets and people with HEATFS.