Ground vehicles 128mm APDS (treibspiegelgeschoss mit H-kern)

[Choogleblitz 10,205]

Because the mod44 never had available and never used BR-471D? It doesn't make sense to add an ammo option that the real tank never had and then say it's still the "same tank." It would make more sense to add the IS-2M as a BR 6.7 or 7.0 tank right after the mod44 in the tree, as a stepping stone between the mod44 and the IS-3.

Proven to be a myth countless times. Stop parroting the War Thunder original myth.

[Ruslan_DR 686]

We would need more data about 105mm APCR, in game like US APCR its under-preforming a little bit (T44 had about 350mm when in game have only 270mm...).

technically speaking 105mm core should allow for ~380mm threshold min.

 

True, but this doesn't look like APCR, look at the shape of the head, it is far too rounded, looks more like Pzgr 39, where as APCR is usually more of a cone. I could be wrong on that, but I'm pretty sure that's what it was. So, if this is the case we can use the AP round of the 10.5 tiger to calculate it, using weight and most parameters, official ones. 

 

But holy shit, change the shell and you get THAT much more bang, this would roflstomp all other tanks if we can recalculate the 10.5 core.

[arczer25 5,202]

True, but this doesn't look like APCR, look at the shape of the head, it is far too rounded, looks more like Pzgr 39, where as APCR is usually more of a cone. I could be wrong on that, but I'm pretty sure that's what it was. So, if this is the case we can use the AP round of the 10.5 tiger to calculate it, using weight and most parameters, official ones. 

 

But holy ****, change the shell and you get THAT much more bang, this would roflstomp all other tanks if we can recalculate the 10.5 core.

after comparing size it seems to be that core size is 105mm or 88mm, APCR had many types of ballistic caps one were rounded one sharp.

 

but then is one problem, as we don't have any data about is. clearly 88mm or 105mm core would have much more penetration than 245mm 1km 30 degree.

 

small EDIT, we forgot that in picture is only core, so in that term 88mm APCR core is only 44mm, but for 128mm they used entire 88mm APCR and that's why it can look much bigger

[attachment=188023:087_88mm_Pzgr_40_s.jpg]

[Ruslan_DR 686]

after comparing size it seems to be that core size is 105mm or 88mm, APCR had many types of ballistic caps one were rounded one sharp.

 

but then is one problem, as we don't have any data about is. clearly 88mm or 105mm core would have much more penetration than 245mm 1km 30 degree.

 

small EDIT, we forgot that in picture is only core, so in that term 88mm APCR core is only 44mm, but for 128mm they used entire 88mm APCR and that's why it can look much bigger

087_88mm_Pzgr_40_s.jpg

 

That's not what i meant. What i mean is the shell pictured looks too wide to be an 8.8, which is why i said 10.5. Anyways, this could be the core of a 10.5, or perhaps the entire 10.5. IF this is true. I'm thinking it is because remember they did not use only cores, these Germans, since they had never really often done APDS due to lack of materials. As a result it looks to be more the size of a full-size 10.5 Look at it's diameter and compare that to the width of the sabots themselves, it's kinda too big to be an 8.8 Sure, the size difference is only about 2cm extra, (to be exact; 1.7 cm) so admittedly it would be hard to see on this scale, however I am sure that this is it. 

My reasoning is that if they realised they could fit an ENTIRE 8.8 into a 12.8 barrel, why not an entire 10.5? If this is the case, then they may have just used the entire thing and rounded out the bottom for better streamlining, at least it looks this way.

 

Really it seems the only way we'll know for certain is to ask the bomb disposal squad that found it for specifics on it.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Ruslan_DR

[arczer25 5,202]

That's not what i meant. What i mean is the shell pictured looks too wide to be an 8.8, which is why i said 10.5. Anyways, this could be the core of a 10.5, or perhaps the entire 10.5. IF this is true. I'm thinking it is because remember they did not use only cores, these Germans, since they had never really often done APDS due to lack of materials. As a result it looks to be more the size of a full-size 10.5 Look at it's diameter and compare that to the width of the sabots themselves, it's kinda too big to be an 8.8 Sure, the size difference is only about 2cm extra, (to be exact; 1.7 cm) so admittedly it would be hard to see on this scale, however I am sure that this is it. 

My reasoning is that if they realised they could fit an ENTIRE 8.8 into a 12.8 barrel, why not an entire 10.5? If this is the case, then they may have just used the entire thing and rounded out the bottom for better streamlining, at least it looks this way.

 

Really it seems the only way we'll know for certain is to ask the bomb disposal squad that found it for specifics on it.

maybe there was other 128mm APDS with 105mm core, 88mm seems good for testing purposes as it was easy available compared to 105mm rounds.

other 10,5 cm PzGr. 39 (TS) (and similar to it) APDS couldn't be used without rework due to filler cavity and they are made of steel so it would shatter at that high velocity.

 

105mm core would have much more penetration than 245mm  30 degree 1km as document says for comparison:

105mm T5E2 APCR: 11.2kg at 1128m/s penetration 258mm 30 degree 1km

German 105mm pzgr 40 fired using current data: 10.3kg at 1230m/s 245mm 30 degree 1km?

 

as for steeps from 128mm to 105mm you need to remember that 150mm TS had core 88mm and 128mm Flak 40 used 75mm core for Sprg. KV rounds (Sprg. KV means HE subcaliber shell)

[HerrSektor 3,840]

If gaijin will keep the IS3, T54-47 and IS2-54 in 7.3, the german128mm, 75mm panther F and 88mm panther II should recieve their APDS prototipe rounds...

Edited February 19, 2016 by zSektor92

[Ruslan_DR 686]

maybe there was other 128mm APDS with 105mm core, 88mm seems good for testing purposes as it was easy available compared to 105mm rounds.

other 10,5 cm PzGr. 39 (TS) (and similar to it) APDS couldn't be used without rework due to filler cavity and they are made of steel so it would shatter at that high velocity.

 

105mm core would have much more penetration than 245mm  30 degree 1km as document says for comparison:

105mm T5E2 APCR: 11.2kg at 1128m/s penetration 258mm 30 degree 1km

German 105mm pzgr 40 fired using current data: 10.3kg at 1230m/s 245mm 30 degree 1km?

 

as for steeps from 128mm to 105mm you need to remember that 150mm TS had core 88mm and 128mm Flak 40 used 75mm core for Sprg. KV rounds (Sprg. KV means HE subcaliber shell)

 

WELL yes the document refers to an 88mm core being used, but if the core is bigger it would have more pen.  As for the steps, well i guess that makes sense, perhaps it varied by nation. 

 

Either way, wishful thinking i guess. Still, better than anything we currently have!

[schrodingerstonk 451]

If gaijin will keep the IS3, T54-47 and IS2-54 in 7.3, the german128mm, 75mm panther F and 88mm panther II should recieve their APDS prototipe rounds...

To be fair jagdtiger should also be 7.3, and king tiger H  versions clubs hard at it's BR. I see less of a problem with T54 1947's and IS-3 than jagdtiger at 7.0

[RohmMohc 11,494]

To be fair jagdtiger should also be 7.3, and king tiger H  versions clubs hard at it's BR. I see less of a problem with T54 1947's and IS-3 than jagdtiger at 7.0

so you see less problems with well armoured tanks that even have good to decent mobility compared to a sluggish behemoth which only strengths are: Frontal armour (minus LFP) and firepower... and even lacks a turret

[Nudelblitz 22,006]

To be fair jagdtiger should also be 7.3, and king tiger H  versions clubs hard at it's BR. I see less of a problem with T54 1947's and IS-3 than jagdtiger at 7.0

Is this a actual joke?

Kingtiger H stopped clubbing hard at its br when the T-54-47 and IS-3 horde appeared, because of the spam of these 2 vehicles its mostly a entire Tiger II H team vs mostly T-54's and IS-3's

And the Tiger II H can literailly not pen (or at needle like weakspots) the IS3.

 

That thing deserves more 7.3 currently then the Jagdtiger.

[Tantor57 10,318]

Well even if it's added with 245 mm of penetration from 1000 meters at 30 degrees it means like 270 mm at 1km at 0° that still be very good and the perfs at 60° i think would grant it a clean penetration at 1000 meters on anything but T10, IS4 and T54-47 LFP while still being able to penetrate their turrets.

 

With the 105 mm core i think it's impossible to calculate but it'd be a good 260 mm at 30° from 1 km and 300 mm at 30° point blank means 330'ish mm of pen at 0° point blank as well a very nice penetration at 60° maybe like 110 mm at 1km and 125-130 mm point blank.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Tantor57

[arczer25 5,202]

Well even if it's added with 245 mm of penetration from 1000 meters at 30 degrees it means like 270 mm at 1km at 0° that still be very good and the perfs at 60° i think would grant it a clean penetration at 1000 meters on anything but T10, IS4 and T54-47 LFP while still being able to penetrate their turrets.

 

With the 105 mm core i think it's impossible to calculate but it'd be a good 260 mm at 30° from 1 km and 300 mm at 30° point blank means 330'ish mm of pen at 0° point blank as well a very nice penetration at 60° maybe like 110 mm at 1km and 125-130 mm point blank.

that's not modern APDS, its APCR in sabot. 245 at 30 degree = ~319mm 0 degree and about 76-91mm at 60 degree

[Ruslan_DR 686]

that's not modern APDS, its APCR in sabot. 245 at 30 degree = ~319mm 0 degree and about 76-91mm at 60 degree

 

So.... looking at the shell, it seems to be APCR with a ballistic cap, covered by a 10.5 shell for aerodynamics or something, i did say it seemed to small for it to be a mere 8.8, so this likely performs slightly better on angles than normal APCR

[HerrSektor 3,840]

To be fair jagdtiger should also be 7.3, and king tiger H  versions clubs hard at it's BR. I see less of a problem with T54 1947's and IS-3 than jagdtiger at 7.0

You even in your 3k battles tried to shoot at the lower glacis of the Tiger II chasis to see what happen??? (when i mean Tiger II chasis, I mean jagdtiger too)

[schrodingerstonk 451]

You even in your 3k battles tried to shoot at the lower glacis of the Tiger II chasis to see what happen??? (when i mean Tiger II chasis, I mean jagdtiger too)

yes, the transmission absorbs my entire shell and all the spalling included.

[Th3hadyn 5,881]

Sorry, not had chance to look through the whole thread but. Is there any proof of this things existence and data sheets for penetration other than just 1-2 images of a shell with a sign in front of it basically calling it APDS?

 

I mean i could take a shell and put AP-HE-FS-DS-SH sign in front of it and it doesn't mean its real. If there is actual proof on this shell then it will have my support. I'm just skeptical of it.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Th3hadyn

[HerrSektor 3,840]

yes, the transmission absorbs my entire shell and all the spalling included.

Now, use your tank to flank them... it isnt difficult so???

[schrodingerstonk 451]

Now, use your tank to flank them... it isnt difficult so???

is it difficult to have a rational thought?

[Renamed99495 3,247]

yes, the transmission absorbs my entire shell and all the spalling included.

in real life, maybe. In this game ? no

[Nudelblitz 22,006]

Sorry, not had chance to look through the whole thread but. Is there any proof of this things existence and data sheets for penetration other than just 1-2 images of a shell with a sign in front of it basically calling it APDS?

 

I mean i could take a shell and put AP-HE-FS-DS-SH sign in front of it and it doesn't mean its real. If there is actual proof on this shell then it will have my support. I'm just skeptical of it.

It pretty much all began when we found out that in several sources was stated that the Maus was suppose to get this special APDS ammo.

This and the fact that its well known that the Germans were experimenting with APDS with several calibers is something what makes it quite a possibility that it exists.

[arczer25 5,202]

It pretty much all began when we found out that in several sources was stated that the Maus was suppose to get this special APDS ammo.

This and the fact that its well known that the Germans were experimenting with APDS with several calibers is something what makes it quite a possibility that it exists.

Germans were mainly experimenting with APDS for howitzers and AAA weapons (better velocity->shorter travel time->better chance to hit->75mm HE round still destroy bomber on hit you don't need 128mm HE)

Waring wall of text

 

-  that in 1944, or even early 1945, the Jagdtiger gun was completely sufficient (in most cases it was an overkill anyway) and there was no real need to invent something bigger. Sure, there were various fantasies, such as the StuG E-100 or the Sturmgeschütz Maus (or even the odd L/66 Jagdtiger with the rear casemate), but those were impractical paper project, fuelled by Hitler’s megalomania, combined with the German heavy vehicle approach. In other words, there was no real need to develop more advanced 128mm AT guns, or – in economy term – shells, such as the Panzergranate 44 for 12,8cm gun (APFSDS rounds). The concept of a German APFSDS shells (called “Peenemünder Pfeil”, or simply “Pfeilgeschoss” – arrow shots) was there (and worked well for the 37mm guns), but the tungsten penetrators were expensive, these special metals were not widely available (hence the limited number of for example 75mm APCR ammunition) and it was very expensive (that’s why the Germans were actively seeking to replace them with something else, leading to the experiments with Uranium core ammunition, that is represented by the 30mm “U” ammo for Mk.103 gun).

 

There were three cases of sabot ammunition being used (and practical). First was the 150/88mm sabot round for the 150mm guns. It was basically a 150mm shell, bottlenecked into 88mm, with the regular 88mm steel core. It was a stopgap measure to give artillery something to fire at tanks with. Second case was the HEFSDS 150mm ammunition. Both shells (the 150/88 and 150 HEFSDS) were called TS (“Treibspiegel” – sabot). Where in first case the point was to give the 150mm howitzers some penetration (I calculated it based on Hogg data and the 150/88mm shell reached roughly 200mm penetration), in second case, the goal was to increase velocity and range. In both cases, the Germans were successful, it worked and these shells were used.

 

Third case is somewhat different. 128mm HEFSDS shells were also developed – this time not for artillery, but for Flak AA guns. Their goal was to actually increase their range to hit the Allied heavy bombers earlier, faster and with more accuracy. The price for that however was the reduction of the warhead and thus lesser bang. From pilot’s POV, the FlaK fire would start earlier, but it wouldn’t make such a mess. There were ways the Germans tried to compensate for the reduced payload, but that’s not a point of this article.

The entire paragraph above was to remind you of one thing: despite these advanced types of shells being developed, there was really no need to produce advanced AP shells, the firepower of the 128mm PaK 44 was sufficient. That however does not mean no such research was conducted, but most of the 128mm Krupp and Rheinmetall research went into the development of a bigger and better Flak cannon (plus shells) – and that’s how the ultimate German 128mm was born.

 

128mm L/75 (or L/78) FlaK 45

FlaK 45 was born in 1945 from the classic 128mm FlaK 40, by adding heavier breech, longer barrel and a muzzle brake. Where the FlaK 40 has a L/58 barrel, FlaK 45 has L/75 (or L/78, if you count the muzzle brake too). It was developed since 1943 by Rheinmetall and it used unitary heavier shells with more propellant, giving it longer range, something that was the point of the entire project.

Here, a FlaK 40. FlaK 45 photos exist, but I don’t have the book I am afraid. Just to illustrate the design then.

 

Apparently, two prototypes were made (the sources are a bit unclear on this one: either it was one gun, that was later modified into the second “stage” prototype, or it was two different guns). What is clear however is that one had various versions of rifled barrels (with different rifling lengths – 30, 21 and 18 calibers), while the other had a smoothbore barrel and utilized fin-stabilized HE-DS ammunition, capable of extreme velocities (1500 m/s). Both prototypes were tested and after the war, they probably ended up scrapped, as it happened with a lot of German tech. The guns had a 360 degrees mount, capable of -3/+90 depression/elevation and could fire up to 22-25 rounds per minute, thanks to the flak-grade automatic loader.

The following table (from the book “Enzyklopädie deutscher Waffen 1939-1945: Handwaffen, Artillerie, Beutewaffen, Sonderwaffen” by T.Gander and P.Chamberlain) gives us an idea, what kind of firepower these guns carried, especially when you compare it to the “classic” FlaK 40.

 

 

To explain what the table means:

“Drallänge in Kalibers” – rifling lengths in calibers
“Geschosskaliber” – shell caliber (when there are two numbers, it’s a subcaliber bottlenecked shell, the first number applies for the casing, the second for the shell)
“Geschoss-sorte” – type of the shell: Sprg. means classic HE, TS means discharging sabot, KV means subcaliber bottlenecked shell and Bd (Brand) means tracer round, “flossenstab.” means fin-stabilized, these can be combined – Sprg. KV for example means HE subcaliber shell (this was done so the gun could fire further with the lighter projectile, but full-grade propellant)
“Gewicht” – shell weight
“V0″ – shell velocity
“Glattrohr” – smoothbore barrel

 

The table contains contains various versions of shells, as we can see.

As you can see from the table, the FlaK 45 surpasses the older FlaK 40 in almost every respect. The smoothbore version is technically very interesting (it could fire HEFSDS 6,3kg shells at 1500 m/s!), but we will ignore it.

The rifled barrel (1 to 30) can be used for comparison with the FlaK 40 firepower. While FlaK 40 can fire a 26kg HE shell at 900m/s, the FlaK 45 can fire a 31kg shell at 930m/s. A significant increase! With the subcaliber TS rounds and other versions of rifling, the shell velocity increase was even crazier: the 128/75mm HEDS shell could be fired at 1539 m/s!

[Th3hadyn 5,881]

It pretty much all began when we found out that in several sources was stated that the Maus was suppose to get this special APDS ammo.

This and the fact that its well known that the Germans were experimenting with APDS with several calibers is something what makes it quite a possibility that it exists.

 

While i do think that is possible, i doubt it would have such high penetration values.

 

But I'm not sure why the Maus would even need this. If the APCBC shell had correct pen values it should have like 300mm+ penetration anyways.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Th3hadyn

[Ruslan_DR 686]

While i do think that is possible, i doubt it would have such high penetration values.

 

But I'm not sure why the Maus would even need this. If the APCBC shell had correct pen values it should have like 300mm+ penetration anyways.

 

correct is give or take around 280, this still has significantly more, and would allow us to frontally pen a vast amount of vehicles we could not before, check out the video in the first post.

[Taskforce404 210]

To be fair jagdtiger should also be 7.3, and king tiger H  versions clubs hard at it's BR. I see less of a problem with T54 1947's and IS-3 than jagdtiger at 7.0

Just grind a jagdtiger and try it before u say something about it.

[Doktor_Junkers 8,441]

Since the Jagdtiger's gun was kept without a muzzle brake to allow for the later use of the Treibspiegelgeschoss and some tanks get ammo they never had, this has a +1 from my side.