tanks/vehicles Experimentaleintwicklung Kampfpanzer Keiler (leo 2 EARLY, EARLY prototype)

[dotEXCEL 5,969]

how about throwing all infos on the t-64/t-72 in a own suggestion?

Edited February 17, 2017 by dotEXCEL

[Dalles 56]

+1

[Nope 10,634]

4 hours ago, F7UCutlass said:

Now I'm confused. What kind of 105 was it?

 

I already told you: it's Rheinmetall's 105mm smoothbore.

[Rohrkrepiererer 1,393]

On 17.2.2017 at 10:32 PM, dotEXCEL said:

how about throwing all infos on the t-64/t-72 in a own suggestion?

 

Good idea, go ahead.

[Solid_Snake01 974]

On 2/17/2017 at 4:32 PM, dotEXCEL said:

how about throwing all infos on the t-64/t-72 in a own suggestion?

Then do it.

On 2/17/2017 at 8:02 PM, Nope said:

 

I already told you: it's Rheinmetall's 105mm smoothbore.

So it is now you have to find the ammo data for the 105mm smoothbore because the guy that made the topic only has the 120mm smoothbore ammo data. 

[Rohrkrepiererer 1,393]

29 minutes ago, Solid_Snake01 said:

So it is now you have to find the ammo data for the 105mm smoothbore because the guy that made the topic only has the 120mm smoothbore ammo data. 

 

No, if someone wants it with the 105, then he does his own research and his own suggestion.

[Solid_Snake01 974]

1 minute ago, Rohrkrepiererer said:

 

No, if someone wants it with the 105, then he does his own research and his own suggestion.

Then like you said there is no need for the Keiler.

[Results45 2,200]

On 2/17/2017 at 1:32 PM, dotEXCEL said:

how about throwing all infos on the t-64/t-72 in a own suggestion?

 

4 hours ago, Rohrkrepiererer said:

Good idea, go ahead.

 

Yeah much better than introducing the still-in-service Obj. 219/T-80 IMO.

[Rohrkrepiererer 1,393]

2 hours ago, Solid_Snake01 said:

Then like you said there is no need for the Keiler.

 

Exactly, there are more than enough Leopard 1 variants, all mounting a 105. The Keiler is a good middle ground between the Leopard and the Leopard 1A6

[_EQUAI_ 356]

2 hours ago, Rohrkrepiererer said:

 

Exactly, there are more than enough Leopard 1 variants, all mounting a 105. The Keiler is a good middle ground between the Leopard and the Leopard 1A6

I agree with this there are plenty Leopard 1s that can be added, I think this should be saved for later when these kinds of vehicles are ready to be considered.

[Results45 2,200]

30 minutes ago, BLUEBLACK_EQUAI said:

I agree with this there are plenty Leopard 1s that can be added, I think this should be saved for later when these kinds of vehicles are ready to be considered.

 

Well we are discussing BR 8.7-10.0  here while Gaijin is still struggling to fill gaps in 6.0-8.3 lineups.......

Edited February 19, 2017 by Results45

[_EQUAI_ 356]

10 minutes ago, Results45 said:

 

Well we are discussing BR 8.7-10.0  here while Gaijin is still struggling to fill gaps in 6.0-8.3 lineups.......

True

[Rohrkrepiererer 1,393]

I am fairly confident, that the Keiler has a place in the game reserved for it, just not yet.

[Admiral_Aruon 2,264]

i think the 120mm keiler is more than ready for war thunder at this point. it's fast, has very suspect armor, and packs a bigass gun. if it were made by the british who already have THREE 120mm doomsday guns (one on a 7.0 BR tank!) whose standard ammo pens 360-397mm, it'd be lost among the crowd. the Keiler '69 would put the germans on parity with the british 120mm Ordinance tanks and the soviets with their T-10M 122mm and T-62 115mm (which the whole point of the Leo 2 development process was to effectively counter)

[Nope 10,634]

2 hours ago, admiral_aruon said:

i think the 120mm keiler is more than ready for war thunder at this point. it's fast, has very suspect armor, and packs a bigass gun. if it were made by the british who already have THREE 120mm doomsday guns (one on a 7.0 BR tank!) whose standard ammo pens 360-397mm, it'd be lost among the crowd. the Keiler '69 would put the germans on parity with the british 120mm Ordinance tanks and the soviets with their T-10M 122mm and T-62 115mm (which the whole point of the Leo 2 development process was to effectively counter)

 

On parity? Do you know how daft you sound? Sure, the British have a 120mm, but it is a rifled gun firing APDS on one of the slowest endgame tanks by a very considerable margin, only really losing out to the Maus. Sure, the T-62 has a smoothbore, but it's a smoothbore so weak it's on the same level as the L7 anyway.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Nope

[WulfPack 1,693]

5 hours ago, admiral_aruon said:

 (which the whole point of the Leo 2 development process was to effectively counter)

I guessing it was for the T-64A. Not the heavy tank from 1957. Not the medium tank that was meant as a stop-gap from 1961.

[Results45 2,200]

8 hours ago, admiral_aruon said:

i think the 120mm keiler is more than ready for war thunder at this point. it's fast, has very suspect armor, and packs a bigass gun. if it were made by the british who already have THREE 120mm doomsday guns (one on a 7.0 BR tank!) whose standard ammo pens 360-397mm, it'd be lost among the crowd. the Keiler '69 would put the germans on parity with the british 120mm Ordinance tanks and the soviets with their T-10M 122mm and T-62 115mm (which the whole point of the Leo 2 development process was to effectively counter)

 

2 hours ago, WulfPack said:

I guessing it was for the T-64A. Not the heavy tank from 1957. Not the medium tank that was meant as a stop-gap from 1961.

 

Well the Chieftain (and later the M60A1/A3 & Leo 1A3-A5s) was meant to counter T-64s, it likely used L26 APFSDS with an estimated 460mm of penetrate at 0 degrees at 2000 meters and 525mm at 500m.

 

M60A1/A3s, AMX-30A/Bs and late-model Leopard 1s using 105mm L7s likely also got high penning APFSDS and HEAT-T mid way into their service lives for the same purpose (i.e. M456A2, M735/774, OCC 105F1, and DM-23/23A1).

 

And when the Soviets started churning-out T-64Bs, T-72s and T-80s, that's when NATO nations were like "oh crap" and got serious about redesigning or heavily upgrading existing tanks (M60AX, Valiant Mk

4, and Cheiftain Mk.10 with Stillbrew and L27/37 ammo) with composite armor or creating next-gen MBTs for the 21st century (Kpz/MBT-70, AMX-32, Type 90, Leo 2, Challenger 1, M1 Abrams, etc.).

 

Given that Tier 5 is far from complete and the gameplay has barely gotten past cap points, simple objectives, and sub-hour engagements, IMO Warthunder is seriously not ready for modern tanks.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Results45

[pieve 3,578]

Still not ready, but that doesn't mean they will not come too

[Nope 10,634]

18 minutes ago, Results45 said:

Well the Chieftain (and later the M60A1/A3 & Leo 1A3-A5s) was meant to counter T-64s, it likely used L26 APFSDS with an estimated 460mm of penetrate at 0 degrees at 2000 meters and 525mm at 500m.

 

M60A1/A3s, AMX-30A/Bs and late-model Leopard 1s using 105mm L7s likely also got high penning APFSDS and HEAT-T mid way into their service lives for the same purpose (i.e. M456A2, M735/774, OCC 105F1, and DM-23/23A1).

 

And when the Soviets started churning-out T-64Bs, T-72s and T-80s, that's when NATO nations were like "oh crap" and got serious about redesigning or heavily upgrading existing tanks (M60AX, Valiant Mk

4, and Cheiftain Mk.10 with Stillbrew and L27/37 ammo) with composite armor or creating next-gen MBTs for the 21st century (Kpz/MBT-70, AMX-32, Type 90, Leo 2, Challenger 1, M1 Abrams, etc.).

 

Given that Tier 5 is far from complete and the gameplay has barely gotten past cap points, simple objectives, and sub-hour engagements, IMO Warthunder is seriously not ready for modern tanks.

 

It's unlikely that L26 APFSDS penetrated that much tbh considering you are once again using figures of debatable origin. Still, it's monobloc APFSDS that could very well go through a T-72B without Kontakt-5.

[Results45 2,200]

1 hour ago, Nope said:

 

It's unlikely that L26 APFSDS penetrated that much tbh considering you are once again using figures of debatable origin. Still, it's monobloc APFSDS that could very well go through a T-72B without Kontakt-5.

 

I use those general figures a lot because I don't know of any official documents specifying otherwise (sure they exist, but I have not nor know where I can take a look at them).

 

I also used the words "likely" and "estimated" because they may well be inaccurate, but effectively get the point across.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Results45

[Rohrkrepiererer 1,393]

Yeah, the devs are sadly highly likely not going to implenment the Kpz Keiler due to several reasons:

 

1) There are not enough reliable sources

2) It is a prototype, and there are no similar vehicles for several of the game's nations

3) There are more than enough alternatives that went into mass production, and that are not mounting the very feared 120mm gun

I am very sad about that, but hey. Maybe in the future...

Edited February 26, 2017 by Rohrkrepiererer

[Results45 2,200]

8 hours ago, Rohrkrepiererer said:

Yeah, the devs are sadly highly likely not going to implenment the Kpz Keiler due to several reasons:

 

1) There are not enough reliable sources

2) It is a prototype, and there are no similar vehicles for several of the game's nations

3) There are more than enough alternatives that went into mass production, and that are not mounting the very feared 120mm gun

I am very sad about that, but hey. Maybe in the future...

 

Well so far nothing has stopped the from adding production-ready propotypes to the game, but hey they probably have business and research connections we don't know about 

 

And if the big step is ever taken to add the T-64, Chieftain Mk.10, or Super Patton (after M60A2, Chief. Mk.5, T-62 mod

 1975, etc., etc.), then Germany is definitely gonna need faster blitzkrieg tank with a bigger gun 

Edited February 27, 2017 by Results45

[*AceArchangel 908]

6 hours ago, Results45 said:

And if the big step is ever taken to add the T-64, Chieftain Mk.10, or Super Patton, then Germany is definitely gonna need faster blitzkrieg tank with a bigger gun 

 

To me this seems like the next logical step towards the top 9.0 BR, I could see:

Germany getting the Kpz Keiler and the Kpz-70

USA with the Super M60 Patton, M60A2 Starship, MBT-70

Russia and their T-64

Britain gets the Chieftain Mk.10

Edited February 27, 2017 by *AceArchangel

[Results45 2,200]

47 minutes ago, *AceArchangel said:

 

To me this seems like the next logical step towards the top 9.0 BR, I could see:

Germany getting the Kpz Keiler and the Kpz-70

USA with the Super M60 Patton, M60A2 Starship, MBT-70

Russia and their T-64

Britain gets the Chieftain Mk.10

 

Well I've heard from people like Choogleblitz and Josh_Young that the MBT/Kpz-70 is roughly equivalent to the Obj. 219/T-80 in mobility & armor and at least the T-72A in firepower so Russia should at least get up to the T-72B at BR 9.3-10.0

 

There's also the Leo 1A6 and UK needs their Vickers Valiant Mk.4 

Edited February 27, 2017 by Results45

[*AceArchangel 908]

13 minutes ago, Results45 said:

 

Well I've heard from people like Choogleblitz and Josh_Young that the MBT/Kpz-70 is roughly equivalent to the Obj. 219/T-80 in mobility & armor and at least the T-72A in firepower so Russia should at least get up to the T-72B at BR 9.3-10.0

 

There's also the Leo 1A6 and UK needs their Vickers Valiant Mk.4 

I could understand that, would be nice to see those make the cut.

 

+1 for the Leo 1A6 and Vickers Valiant Mk.4!