tanks/vehicles M48A2GA2 - West German Modified Patton

[*AceArchangel 909]

Hello everyone!

 

Today I would like to suggest a unique vehicle for the German research tree, between June 1978 and November 1980 the M48A2GA2 were developed, they are a West German modification of the American M48A2 Patton III tanks. This modification follows the Americans venture to develop an up gun their ageing to the M48A5 standard, the German military decided to use their own licensed copy of L7A3 cannon on their modified M48A2 platforms. The M48A2GA2 was for the most part identical armour wise to standard M48A2, although it did have a few unique additions like a thin steel plate in front of the original mantlet, a copula mounted MG3 installation, thermal gun sleeve, redesigned slim copula, rear turret stowage box, rear facing mirrors, modified ammunition stowage less total ammunition, modified fire control system, some mounting a laser designator over the barrel and passive night vision equipment. (of course the laser designator and night vision equipment not having use in game). Even though these tanks were outmatched by their replacement, the Leopard I they served managed to stay active well into the 1980's and finally being scrapped completely in early 1991. Full additions list below:

 

Changes:

Spoiler

• 105mm L7A3
• Less ammunition
• Thin steel plate covering the mantlet
• Copula mounted MG3
• Thermal gun sleeve (optional)
• Redesigned slimmer copula
• Rear turret stowage box
• Rear facing mirrors
• Modified fire control system
• Laser designator
• Passive night vision equipment

 

Images:

Spoiler

Model of the M48A2GA2.

Image of the vehicle in a training exercise.

M48A2GA2, note the laser designator and night vision equipment.

Black and white drawing of an M48A2GA2.

 

Logically the M48A2GA2 would have the same ammunition as the Leopard I tanks as they both use the same guns, otherwise it could possibly use the same armament as the M60 Patton in game currently, although that wouldn't make this vehicle as unique. This tank should sit at BR 7.7 (RB) on the German research tree specifically after the Panther II and before the Leopard I (West German line) and ideally in a sub category with the German M47 (7.3) The M47 has been added as a Tier V premium, I still believe that this vehicle should come after the Panther II and Leopard I at BR 7.7 due to the lack of a stabilizer. While this does not have a gun stabilizer like the Leopard A1A1 currently, it could still rectify one of the German ground forces's biggest issues, a lack of competitive variety in its top tier which this could fix.

 

Specifications:

Armour: Identical to the M48A2 (aside from the modified gunshield/mantlet)

Armament: 1 x 105mm L7A3 (46 Rounds)

Secondary Armament: 1 x MG3 copula mounted, 1 x M73 (possibly MG3) coaxial turret mounted

Engine: AVI-1790-8 825hp (Engine raised higher due to the engine upgrade from the M48A2C)

Weight: 47.8t

Size: 2.90m tall, 3.63m wide, 9.35m long (including gun)

4 x Turret Mounted Smoke Dispensers

 

What you think? Let me know in the poll above, thanks for reading!

 

Edit: The gun shield plate is actually a thin sheet of steel that covers the actual original mantlet in behind. Thanks to @dotEXCEL for finding a source!

 

References:

Spoiler

 Images:

 - https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/eb/ba/b0/ebbab0c51c97eb1b112bda0f1a15d37b.jpg

 - http://www.revell.com/product-images/80-3236-lg.jpg

 - https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1667/24502922009_0dfa864e56_b.jpg

 - http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/Modern/M48/m48_3.gif

 

Information:

 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M48_Patton

 - http://tanknutdave.com/the-german-m48a2ga2-tank-a-super-m48-tank-upgrades/

 - http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/US/M48_Patton.php

 - http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/in_detail/m48a2ga2/m48a2ga2.htm

 

Edited November 12, 2017 by *AceArchangel
Modified post for recent game changes

[SAUBER_KH7 3,326]

Open for Discussion.

[*AceArchangel 909]

6 minutes ago, SAUBER_KH7 said:

Open for Discussion.

Thank you, kind sir!

[WulfPack 1,693]

How much armor did the new gun mantel add?

[MiseryIndex556@psn 13,154]

What was the ammo load out? Something from that time period likely fired APFSDS. 

[*AceArchangel 909]

On 04/08/2017 at 12:35 PM, WulfPack said:

How much armor did the new gun mantel add?

I've had a tough time trying to find that specific information, I know it's out there I am just unable to find it simply, if anyone else finds it or if I find it I will add it into the suggestion. Although it definitely does look quite a bit thicker than the standard M48A2.

 

Edit: It may not be any thicker than the standard mantlet, from what it looks like it's just a redesign of the shape being a flat square plate. I cannot confirm yet as I still haven't found any document highlighting it's thickness. The new mantlet isn't actually a mantlet, it is a light steel plate, negligible armour value. Underneath is the standard M48A2 Mantlet, this essentially just acts as a cover of sorts.

 

On 04/08/2017 at 12:41 PM, *MiseryIndex556 said:

What was the ammo load out? Something from that time period likely fired APFSDS. 

I will try and look into this as well, it utilized the same L7A3 105mm as the Leopard 1 tanks so it should have the same ammo loadout as such vehicles at the same period.

 

Edit: DM23 APFSDS Shell was added to all Leopard variants and the M48A2GA2 in 1978 through to 1984 (replaced by DM33) so yes that is a possibility.

Edited November 11, 2017 by *AceArchangel

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

28 minutes ago, *AceArchangel said:

I will try and look into this as well, it utilized the same L7A3 105mm as the Leopard 1 tanks so it should have the same ammo loadout as such vehicles at the same period.

I'm pretty sure that by 1978 the Germans were using DM23 APFSDS on their Leopards.

[Admiral_Aruon 2,264]

i'm all for this. it was even a unique local modification. +1

 

i'd say though that it shouldn't require the original model tank in the german tech tree as it'd be both redundant because of the Leos and unnecessary because it'd slow down access to the absurdly high-RP cost Leos.

 

anything the germans already use as ammo would be applicable. and...

 

15 minutes ago, Mercedes4321 said:

I'm pretty sure that by 1978 the Germans were using DM23 APFSDS on their Leopards.

 

this. i don't know when gaijin are going to introduce the DM23, but if it's on the M48A2GA2 than that would be the difference between being AFTER the leopard 1A1A1 rather than as filler before.

[*AceArchangel 909]

7 minutes ago, Admiral_Aruon said:

i'm all for this. it was even a unique local modification. +1

Yay!

 

7 minutes ago, Admiral_Aruon said:

i'd say though that it shouldn't require the original model tank in the german tech tree as it'd be both redundant because of the Leos and unnecessary because it'd slow down access to the absurdly high-RP cost Leos.

I see your point, although there is no way this would fit at 7.7 with the 90mm American variant being 7.7 and Germany is in desperate need of 7.3-7.7 vehicles, I only mentioned the M47 as it was serviced in Germany and would fit at 7.3, another possible vehicle being the T-54 at 7.7, although I would put that under the Maus to separate the East and West German equipment.

 

7 minutes ago, Admiral_Aruon said:

anything the germans already use as ammo would be applicable. and...

 

this. i don't know when gaijin are going to introduce the DM23, but if it's on the M48A2GA2 than that would be the difference between being AFTER the leopard 1A1A1 rather than as filler before.

They could possibly add the Leopard 1A3 (welded turret) with the DM23 at 8.3 as a late tier addition and maybe even the Leopard 1A6 (cast turret) with the 120mm!

[TheLastYouSee__@psn 281]

i dont support this at all.
first of all if the US gets the A1 and not the A5 then germany sure as hell shouldnt get someting that is basically the german version of the A5
this would be close to the M60 in its preformance and would take away appeal for the US tanks.
i am no supporter of foreign tanks in a countries main line i dont like the idea of giving the germans M47s M48s and M48s that are basically M60s in disguise.
for that matter i dont want DDR tanks either. germany can get a bunch of leopard prototypes first and some of its light tank prototypes such as the begeleitpanzer 57 and the spahpanzer 1C
i am sorry but i can not in good conscience support this suggestion as to me it wouldnt do germany or the US any good and will open pandoras box of giving germany DDR tanks and other US tanks taking appeal form both the USSR tree and the US tree in favour of germany which is then capable of using the tanks of 3 nations in combination.

Edited August 4, 2017 by *TheLastYouSee__

[*AceArchangel 909]

1 hour ago, *TheLastYouSee__ said:

i dont support this at all.
first of all if the US gets the A1 and not the A5 then germany sure as hell shouldnt get someting that is basically the german version of the A5

If you want the M48A5 for the USA then make a suggestion for it. But this is an indigenous modification by West Germany and currently Germany is suffering from not having enough diversity in it's top tier. The USA has the M47 7.3, M48 at 7.7 and three types of M60's at 8.0 plus the M551 at 8.0 and the T-95 Heavy at 8.0. Really you whine about this but neglect the fact that the USA has one of the most number of Tier V tanks in the game? Come on man.

Quote

this would be close to the M60 in its preformance and would take away appeal for the US tanks.
i am no supporter of foreign tanks in a countries main line i dont like the idea of giving the germans M47s M48s and M48s that are basically M60s in disguise.
for that matter i dont want DDR tanks either. germany can get a bunch of leopard prototypes first and some of its light tank prototypes such as the begeleitpanzer 57 and the spahpanzer 1C

You are aware of the multiple shared vehicles between all the nations right? Plus one single tank does not "take away appeal" from an entire military branch, that is absurd. You may not be a supporter of shared vehicles, but Germany is in a tough spot, people have suggested Leopards and almost all of the ones suggested have been shot down for being "too OP for the meta" and adding just another Leopard doesn't change the problem with little variety. The begeleitpanzer 57 is underpowered and I would have a hard time putting it anywhere near 8.0 with only 6 ATGMs and a 57mm gun with low explosive filler and penetration. And if the Ru-251 is 6.7 material the Spahpanzer 1C is definitely not 7.3 - 8.0 material, so unless you want paper tanks I don't see any options.

Quote

i am sorry but i can not in good conscience support this suggestion as to me it wouldnt do germany or the US any good and will open pandoras box of giving germany DDR tanks and other US tanks taking appeal form both the USSR tree and the US tree in favour of germany which is then capable of using the tanks of 3 nations in combination.

Well that is your opinion but there is no way this opens Pandora's box, AF already has the CL-13 which is a better variant of the F-86F-25 due to its more powerful engine and handling and the MiG-15bis. Not to mention Japan got American post war tanks due to a lack of variety of tanks, has that not opened Pandora's box already?

Edited August 5, 2017 by *AceArchangel

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

2 hours ago, *TheLastYouSee__ said:

first of all if the US gets the A1 and not the A5 then germany sure as hell shouldnt get someting that is basically the german version of the A5

I would tell you to go support the suggestion for the M48A5, but that already got passed to development.

 

[TheLastYouSee__@psn 281]

2 minutes ago, *AceArchangel said:

Well that is your opinion but there is no way this opens Pandora's box, AF already has the CL-13 which is a better variant of the F-86F-25 due to its more powerful engine and handling and the MiG-15bis. Not to mention Japan got American post war tanks due to a lack of variety of tanks, has that not opened Pandora's box already?

well unlike tanks germany doesnt have any planes produced by themselves that can serve as proper top tiers.
i am suggesting bringing leopard prototypes since the leopard is still a decent tank but was hit hard by the HEAT-FS nerf.
there is a leopard prototype with a 90mm that can use all 90mm US ammo which would make it rather usefull in my opinion.
and it will open pandoras box since there is already a major push for foreign tanks in the german tree adding this will only justify it even more.
that will likely lead to germans getting T-34-85s, T-54s and T-55s along with M41s standard M48s and M47s.
japan didnt utilize as many american made tanks as the west german army. and it is less of a problem when it is only a few.
adding this will make the push for GDR tanks and american made tanks for the bundeswehr even greater which will take away form the US top tier and USSR top tier.
what is the point of grinding the soviet T-55 or the US M60(which is rather close to the tank you suggest) if germany gets those plus the leopard and other tanks such as the RU-251 and possibly the begeleitpanzer the spahpanzer 1C and leopard prototypes. this tank is nice dont get me wrong but it opens the door for things i dont want to see.
if this is to get my personal support the US need the M48A5 first.
and i am very aware of the multiple shared planes and tanks such as the M41 some shermans and the sabres but this is giving a nation a beter foreign tank then the country of origin.
the CL-13 is a bad example to counter this since the US gets the F2 and the CL-13 only sports .50s the A5 and F25 arent the US top tiers really the F2 with the cannons. neither is the mig-15 bis the Mig-17 is.
the M60 which is close preformance wise to this is the US top tier tank.

[TheLastYouSee__@psn 281]

4 minutes ago, Mercedes4321 said:

I would tell you to go support the suggestion for the M48A5, but that already got passed to development.

i would support that but my main problem with adding foreign tanks especialy the push for the east and west german tanks is that i will take away from US and USSR top tier.

[*AceArchangel 909]

1 hour ago, *TheLastYouSee__ said:

well unlike tanks germany doesnt have any planes produced by themselves that can serve as proper top tiers.

And Germany has one type of tank that by your standards has to fill the spot for the multitude of US and RU tanks...

Quote

i am suggesting bringing leopard prototypes since the leopard is still a decent tank but was hit hard by the HEAT-FS nerf.
there is a leopard prototype with a 90mm that can use all 90mm US ammo which would make it rather usefull in my opinion

Again that just clutters Germany with too many Leopards, that is the opposite of diversity. The M48 has a german gun on a US chassis and the only way that you are fine with this is if it is a somewhat under powered American gun on a German chassis, cool reasoning.

Quote

and it will open pandoras box since there is already a major push for foreign tanks in the german tree adding this will only justify it even more.
that will likely lead to germans getting T-34-85s, T-54s and T-55s along with M41s standard M48s and M47s.

Difference is I am asking for one tank not 6, also it is an indigenous modification with German equipment, not a copy paste vehicle.

Quote

japan didnt utilize as many american made tanks as the west german army. and it is less of a problem when it is only a few.

Double standard, especially given your following statement, seen below.

Quote

adding this will make the push for GDR tanks and american made tanks for the bundeswehr even greater which will take away form the US top tier and USSR top tier.

Then why has this not happened with Japan, why are people not begging for more American tanks? Germany used the M47, M48, T-54 and T-55 it won't get the T-55 as that is Russia's top vehicle the M47 works at 7.3 as Germany has nothing there, and the M48 and T-54 are the only alternatives and two tanks are not going to break the game, that is a major over reaction.

Quote

what is the point of grinding the soviet T-55 or the US M60(which is rather close to the tank you suggest) if germany gets those plus the leopard and other tanks such as the RU-251 and possibly the begeleitpanzer the spahpanzer 1C and leopard prototypes. this tank is nice dont get me wrong but it opens the door for things i dont want to see.

The T-55 has a two plane stabilizer and a much better gun and ammunition than the T-54 (the only tank Germany would get as it won't get a nations top BR vehicle), The M60 has better hull and turret armour, different ammunition and a two plane stabilizer something that all M48's don't have. So no they won't ruin the point of grinding different nations trees, that is a ridiculous and unfounded claim.

Quote

if this is to get my personal support the US need the M48A5 first.

Of course you would support another 8.0 American tank while also putting down another nations... really, this would make how many 8.0 tanks for the USA now? Compared to how many German? Japanese? British? Come on man, that is elitism and personal bias talking.

Quote

and i am very aware of the multiple shared planes and tanks such as the M41 some shermans and the sabres but this is giving a nation a beter foreign tank then the country of origin.

That happens a lot, again the CL-13 is a better variant of the US Sabre, the Japanese have a better variant of the Sabre as well, Italy has a better variant of the F-84... etc do you want me to go on?...

Quote

the CL-13 is a bad example to counter this since the US gets the F2 and the CL-13 only sports .50s the A5 and F25 arent the US top tiers really the F2 with the cannons. neither is the mig-15 bis the Mig-17 is.
the M60 which is close preformance wise to this is the US top tier tank.

Again this is the same situation with the M48A2GA2 the CL-13 is a modification of a US vehicle used by the Germans with better performance than the US counterpart. The M48A2GA2 is not the same as the M60 as the armour, engine, and internals are completely different plus the M60 AOS gets a two plane stabilizer which the M48A2GA2 doesn't get thus like the CL-13 it has a worse armament.

 

Okay I get it you are not in support but I am not going to sit and argue with you because you have a dislike for it, Gaijin has already expressed interest in adding tanks from East and West Germany. You don't like it and you have already expressed as such, I ask that you avoid sitting and whining, as it adds nothing to the discussion but repetitive negativity, there is a public poll for a reason.

Edited August 5, 2017 by *AceArchangel

[Exiahhh 38]

+1 cool looking modification of the m48 also question about the poll are you talking about putting this in a folder with the m47 when it gets added or am I missing something? 

[Ryan_King 907]

No M47 Copy-Paste Tank for Germany!

Germany had M41 prototypes with a 90mm cannon and several other own concepts and ideas.
Before such a bad M47 comes purely one should rather bring in own developments and so one to one the best of one does not need to have on each BR tanks

[TheLastYouSee__@psn 281]

okay my earlier wording was poor and came across baised i get that and i apologize for that so let me put it differently so we can have a civil disscusions here.
first of all i am not completly against adding GDR and american tanks to the german tree.
but for me if this tanks is to come we first need the M48A5 for america that would be the sensible thing to do in my opinion.
but also for this to work well in a way that makes sense atleast in my opinion all german tanks from the war have to be moved to tier 4.(even the maus) with their BRs still set according to their preformance.
then for Tier 5 make new lines that arent tied to the tier 4 lines which makes sense since german tank development took off in a whole different direction then it did in WW2.
there should be a medium line containing the leopards and their pototypes. a line for american tanks that contains the M47 the M48A2 and at the top gets this.
a TD line that starts with the JPZ4-5 and ends with the rakketten jagdpanzers. and a line for GDR starting with the T-34-85 and then going to the T-54 and T-55 because if you are going to do this might as well do it right. ofcourse the SPAA can still be attached to the gepard ETC. and a light tank line can be made with the M41,  the M41 prototype with the 90mm and the german light prototypes from after the war.
to me this seems like a lot of work to put in one tank and have it make sense in the tree in my opinion. if it is just crammed in somewhere right now it doesnt make any sense in my opinion. and it would still take away some flair from the USSR and the US since a bunch of their Tier 5 tanks wil also be played by german teams.

[Sirchby 3,711]

M48A5?

Seems you forgot that the M60 is superior in every way.

 

The German can have their modified M48A2 Patton, for a fair BR placement.

 

 

I'll support for +1 only if you have found the mantlet armor thickness of the M48A2G2.

Whether it's at the same thickness or not, it's up to you to find the source.

[TheLastYouSee__@psn 281]

18 minutes ago, Sirchby said:

M48A5?

Seems you forgot that the M60 is superior in every way.

so? i personally want to see the M48A1 be replaced by the A5 version or at the very least have the A5 tabbed with the A1.
in my opinion the US should recieve their A5 before german gets their A2G2

[Sirchby 3,711]

Just now, *TheLastYouSee__ said:

so? i personally want to see the M48A1 be replaced by the A5 version or at the very least have the A5 tabbed with the A1.
in my opinion the US should recieve their A5 before german gets their A2G2

 

That would be irrelevant.

 

The base variant of the M48 (90 mm) must exist in the game for whatever the reason is.

Only the M48A5 is optional tank left, since the M60 has already entered long time ago, where both armed 105 mm M68.

[TheLastYouSee__@psn 281]

20 minutes ago, Sirchby said:

The base variant of the M48 (90 mm) must exist in the game for whatever the reason is.

Only the M48A5 is optional tank left, since the M60 has already entered long time ago, where both armed 105 mm M68.

i think it would make a way beter 7.7 tank since it wouldnt be a fully fledge 8.0 but a nice introduction to the play style of the M60 in my opinion the 90mm is too weak to be at 7.7 therefor i think  the US could use the A5

Edited August 5, 2017 by *TheLastYouSee__

[*AceArchangel 909]

1 hour ago, *TheLastYouSee__ said:

okay my earlier wording was poor and came across baised i get that and i apologize for that so let me put it differently so we can have a civil disscusions here.
first of all i am not completly against adding GDR and american tanks to the german tree.
but for me if this tanks is to come we first need the M48A5 for america that would be the sensible thing to do in my opinion.

That is fair and I do genuinely accept that, and if this were at all to be considered for implementation I would out of respect, expect that the US M48A5 be added before or along with this tank.

1 hour ago, *TheLastYouSee__ said:

but also for this to work well in a way that makes sense atleast in my opinion all german tanks from the war have to be moved to tier 4.(even the maus) with their BRs still set according to their preformance.

then for Tier 5 make new lines that arent tied to the tier 4 lines which makes sense since german tank development took off in a whole different direction then it did in WW2.

That is kind of a hard thing to do unfortunately, the King Tiger 105 should definitely be placed in Tier IV as it is a BR 7.0 vehicle (RB) and many vehicles at that BR are Tier IV. The Maus is a different story and should really be reworked and placed at 7.3, 7.7 does not work for it anymore with the relevance of HEAT FS, APFSDS and ATGMs but even that doesn't fit at Tier IV, nothing above 7.0 has been placed a Tier IV before.

1 hour ago, *TheLastYouSee__ said:

there should be a medium line containing the leopards and their pototypes. a line for american tanks that contains the M47 the M48A2 and at the top gets this.
a TD line that starts with the JPZ4-5 and ends with the rakketten jagdpanzers. and a line for GDR starting with the T-34-85 and then going to the T-54 and T-55 because if you are going to do this might as well do it right. ofcourse the SPAA can still be attached to the gepard ETC. and a light tank line can be made with the M41,  the M41 prototype with the 90mm and the german light prototypes from after the war.
to me this seems like a lot of work to put in one tank and have it make sense in the tree in my opinion. if it is just crammed in somewhere right now it doesnt make any sense in my opinion. and it would still take away some flair from the USSR and the US since a bunch of their Tier 5 tanks wil also be played by german teams.

The T-34-85 is unnecessary as there are already the similar Panthers and others around its BR. I am hesitant to say the T-55 should be added as the T-55A with its stabilized gun is the top tank on the Russian line, maybe the first production model T-55 (not the A) could be added as they were purchased from Poland but I am still not completely on board with the idea. Maybe as an alternative they could add the East German "modernized" variant, the T-54AMZ which made a few slight improvements over the original T-54 but mechanically it was almost identical (still no stabilized gun). I think that Germany could get a variant of the M41, in the German modified M41GTI which added a diesel engine with less horsepower (442hp) and top speed (60 km/h) this was done to increase range, it also had thermal image sights, laser designator and a coaxial HK21, it could be a good addition to 6.3 which is currently lacking. I can't find sufficient data on the 90mm M41 outside of WoT so I would take that with a grain of salt, either way it looks to be a one off prototype which are typically controversial here.

[*AceArchangel 909]

4 hours ago, Sirchby said:

I'll support for +1 only if you have found the mantlet armor thickness of the M48A2G2.

Whether it's at the same thickness or not, it's up to you to find the source.

I am looking for the mantlet thickness but it isn't an easy task, there are very few sites that mention in detail the changes made even fewer that specify the mantlet, that is why I asked for assistance if people are able to get their hands on information that I don't have access to. Also I should mention that there are multiple tanks in game currently with classified armour values, the Japanese Type 87 and the Ru-251, this value may even be in a locked German archive...

 

3 hours ago, *TheLastYouSee__ said:

so? i personally want to see the M48A1 be replaced by the A5 version or at the very least have the A5 tabbed with the A1.
in my opinion the US should recieve their A5 before german gets their A2G2

Tabbed would be best, I am an advocate for not removing things unnecessarily.

 

3 hours ago, *TheLastYouSee__ said:

i think it would make a way beter 7.7 tank since it wouldnt be a fully fledge 8.0 but a nice introduction to the play style of the M60 in my opinion the 90mm is too weak to be at 7.7 therefor i think  the US could use the A5

I can't really comment on the BR placement of the M48 as I do not own it, but from the looks of it I don't know how there could be justification in putting it at 7.3 with the inferior M47.

Edited August 5, 2017 by *AceArchangel

[dotEXCEL 5,969]

+1