The BMP-2 sucks for me

[Loongsheep 5,339]

1 hour ago, aja318 said:

We get actual 8.3 IFV just at 9.0 with terrible ATGM reload and to make any real use of it you'll need to set weapon selection (primary [cannon only and allow use of MG], secondary [autocannon] and reset [just in case you accidentally mess with other vehicle]) but that kill your reaction speed defensively (going from ATGM to autocannon take precious moment).

I have been following the discussion for the ATGM, and so far most sources suggest the reload is indeed that slow. There is however a BMP-3M variant with autoloader for the missile, capable of reloading in 13-15 seconds. It was debuted in 1999 so should be viable as a mod/upgrade, as we already have newer tanks.

Scroll down to "ATGM Autoloader" section.

 

For multiple-weapons vehicles, have you considered buying a gaming mouse? With it, you have extra buttons and can set several weapons to fire with a single click. I use it primarily on fighters, left mouse for guns, MB3 for rockets and MB4 for bombs.

[aja318 375]

2 hours ago, Loongsheep said:

I have been following the discussion for the ATGM, and so far most sources suggest the reload is indeed that slow. There is however a BMP-3M variant with autoloader for the missile, capable of reloading in 13-15 seconds. It was debuted in 1999 so should be viable as a mod/upgrade, as we already have newer tanks.

Scroll down to "ATGM Autoloader" section.

 

For multiple-weapons vehicles, have you considered buying a gaming mouse? With it, you have extra buttons and can set several weapons to fire with a single click. I use it primarily on fighters, left mouse for guns, MB3 for rockets and MB4 for bombs.

I read it, there is unpowered loading assist system, two configuration of ready rack for missiles (three if you count autoloader) and loading is meant to be assisted by passengers. So unless you found good information with who is loading those missiles, under what condition and from which ammo rack then you will get different time and in case of average loading time it'll likely include using secondary rack. Paired with how fast other IFVs reload missiles (much more involved process) cause gameplay issue.

 

Sure new mouse would reduce problem but it's not the same as eliminating it. Just something to think of when planning maneuvers.

[Loongsheep 5,339]

51 minutes ago, aja318 said:

I read it, there is unpowered loading assist system, two configuration of ready rack for missiles (three if you count autoloader) and loading is meant to be assisted by passengers. So unless you found good information with who is loading those missiles, under what condition and from which ammo rack then you will get different time and in case of average loading time it'll likely include using secondary rack. Paired with how fast other IFVs reload missiles (much more involved process) cause gameplay issue.

As a popular export vehicle, the manufacturer usually provides a reference reloading time at arms expo.

That number is generally more conservative - but that is what Gaijin uses. Most tanks are under-performing in reload time, most NATO 105mm and 120mm tanks can be reloaded in 4-5 seconds with a trained loader. So do not expect much for a fix - it took over 200 pages of discussion and information to have the reload on Challenger 2 fixed. IMO too much effort for little result.

 

51 minutes ago, aja318 said:

Sure new mouse would reduce problem but it's not the same as eliminating it. Just something to think of when planning maneuvers.

A gaming mouse is always a good investment. The extra buttons can help a lot.

Even with normal gun tanks, I like the extra buttons to set the sight-range adjustment after ranging a target. Once you get used to you can hit 2000m away 80% of time.

[GoddePro 1,146]

14 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

As a popular export vehicle, the manufacturer usually provides a reference reloading time at arms expo.

That number is generally more conservative - but that is what Gaijin uses. Most tanks are under-performing in reload time, most NATO 105mm and 120mm tanks can be reloaded in 4-5 seconds with a trained loader. So do not expect much for a fix - it took over 200 pages of discussion and information to have the reload on Challenger 2 fixed. IMO too much effort for little result.

I would prefer the reload decrease, and it's not that much effort

literally just coming in to the thread every few hours and repeating things you've already said to mods who are in denial.

[somebody_Else 776]

2 hours ago, Loongsheep said:

most NATO 105mm and 120mm tanks can be reloaded in 4-5 seconds with a trained loader.

 

There's a massive difference between those tanks being slightly slower in War Thunder by 1-2 seconds, and Gaijin fabricating a reload 3 times as long as the real BMP-3 reload.

[Loongsheep 5,339]

1 hour ago, GoddePro said:

I would prefer the reload decrease, and it's not that much effort

literally just coming in to the thread every few hours and repeating things you've already said to mods who are in denial.

It took a hell lot of effort to submit "bug reports". We went so far that we had a member who drives Challenger 2 in real life to video-record himself turning the turret 360 degrees, just so Gaijin would accept it for a fix (it was fixed).

 

Are you sure that wouldn't put the already disadvantageous Russian top tier tanks to a worse position?

The autoloader speed for Soviet tanks is already correct, so after fixing the NATO reload, the Abrams, Leopard and M60 will be even stronger against T-64 and up.

 

17 minutes ago, EventAnyDamage said:

There's a massive difference between those tanks being slightly slower in War Thunder by 1-2 seconds, and Gaijin fabricating a reload 3 times as long as the real BMP-3 reload.

Is there a video to support it only takes ~12 seconds to reload the missile by hand?

Because the autoloader is supposed to speed up the process but even with it, it takes 13 seconds.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Loongsheep

[somebody_Else 776]

49 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

Is there a video to support it only takes ~12 seconds to reload the missile by hand?

 

Its not by hand.

 

 

Not a continuous clip. But enough to see its not a 40 second reload, by any stretch of the imagination.

Edited February 18, 2020 by EventAnyDamage

[DreamADream4Me 2,838]

11 hours ago, Loongsheep said:

I have been following the discussion for the ATGM, and so far most sources suggest the reload is indeed that slow. There is however a BMP-3M variant with autoloader for the missile, capable of reloading in 13-15 seconds. It was debuted in 1999 so should be viable as a mod/upgrade, as we already have newer tanks.

Scroll down to "ATGM Autoloader" section.

 

The thing is, with Sodema upgrade (from 2017 iirc) we get BMP-3M. There is absolutely no excuse for BMP-3 still having broken reload.

[aja318 375]

7 hours ago, Loongsheep said:

As a popular export vehicle, the manufacturer usually provides a reference reloading time at arms expo.

That number is generally more conservative - but that is what Gaijin uses. Most tanks are under-performing in reload time, most NATO 105mm and 120mm tanks can be reloaded in 4-5 seconds with a trained loader. So do not expect much for a fix - it took over 200 pages of discussion and information to have the reload on Challenger 2 fixed. IMO too much effort for little result.

 

A gaming mouse is always a good investment. The extra buttons can help a lot.

Even with normal gun tanks, I like the extra buttons to set the sight-range adjustment after ranging a target. Once you get used to you can hit 2000m away 80% of time.

Only if all you count as reload is inserting shell into breech (using same measure for autoloader will also shave at least 1-2 second from loading time), if you count time between the shots then manual reload of NATO guns is already quite generous while it's soviet tanks reload that is underperforming by significant margin in comparison.

 

5 hours ago, Loongsheep said:

It took a hell lot of effort to submit "bug reports". We went so far that we had a member who drives Challenger 2 in real life to video-record himself turning the turret 360 degrees, just so Gaijin would accept it for a fix (it was fixed).

 

Are you sure that wouldn't put the already disadvantageous Russian top tier tanks to a worse position?

The autoloader speed for Soviet tanks is already correct, so after fixing the NATO reload, the Abrams, Leopard and M60 will be even stronger against T-64 and up.

 

Is there a video to support it only takes ~12 seconds to reload the missile by hand?

Because the autoloader is supposed to speed up the process but even with it, it takes 13 seconds.

No, as above. Using same standard for soviet tanks would increase reload speed on most if not all manually loaded soviet tanks (or slow down NATO tanks) while using only time it takes to move shell to breech would also help autoloading vehicles since NATO tanks tend to start with stock reload allowing them maximum aimed ROF.

[Loongsheep 5,339]

17 minutes ago, aja318 said:

Only if all you count as reload is inserting shell into breech (using same measure for autoloader will also shave at least 1-2 second from loading time), if you count time between the shots then manual reload of NATO guns is already quite generous while it's soviet tanks reload that is underperforming by significant margin in comparison.

 

No, as above. Using same standard for soviet tanks would increase reload speed on most if not all manually loaded soviet tanks (or slow down NATO tanks) while using only time it takes to move shell to breech would also help autoloading vehicles since NATO tanks tend to start with stock reload allowing them maximum aimed ROF.

We are talking about 105/120mm NATO MBT vs 125mm Russian MBT. Yes the T-54 and T-62 might benefit from this as well.

 

The T-72 style autoloader loads one round in about 7 seconds, not any slower or faster as it its mechanics are fixed.

A good NATO loader can load a 105mm or 120mm faster than that, as shown in training video and also field manual (spaded WT reload speed for M60 equals the passing score for American loader, slower than that he is disqualified from service).

 

The true advantage with autoloader is it can load just as fast when on the move over rough terrain, where a human loader would need to slow down.

[aja318 375]

19 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

We are talking about 105/120mm NATO MBT vs 125mm Russian MBT. Yes the T-54 and T-62 might benefit from this as well.

 

The T-72 style autoloader loads one round in about 7 seconds, not any slower or faster as it its mechanics are fixed.

A good NATO loader can load a 105mm or 120mm faster than that, as shown in training video and also field manual (spaded WT reload speed for M60 equals the passing score for American loader, slower than that he is disqualified from service).

 

The true advantage with autoloader is it can load just as fast when on the move over rough terrain, where a human loader would need to slow down.

No, this only show you have no idea what you are talking about. reload time by any reasonable metric isn't only loader issue, gun need time to finish recoil stroke, stabilise and potentially go to loading position, open breech before shell can be loaded then you need to let it return aim point, correct and only then fire, all that to calculate aimed rate of fire (which by itself isn't constant across nations, you may need to acquire same target or move to different one). Even autoloader is affected by this (except  not to mention that there is also question of how rounds are loaded (in case of  T-72 manual assume AP-HEAT-HE [or AP-HE-HEAT can't remember] are loaded in sequence so to load same round type you need to skip two).

In game what we call reload is time it takes between when we fire to the moment we can do it again so going only for actual loading time would make everything faster even mechanical system if we ignore certain parts of loading cycle. So if you want to measure only time it take's to shove round into breech autoloader will also be going faster then now assuming same standard is applied.

Generally while mechanical systems are presented quite well in term of speed manual loading is heavily inconsistent for many reasons.

[Loongsheep 5,339]

29 minutes ago, aja318 said:

No, this only show you have no idea what you are talking about. reload time by any reasonable metric isn't only loader issue, gun need time to finish recoil stroke, stabilise and potentially go to loading position, open breech before shell can be loaded then you need to let it return aim point, correct and only then fire, all that to calculate aimed rate of fire (which by itself isn't constant across nations, you may need to acquire same target or move to different one). Even autoloader is affected by this (except  not to mention that there is also question of how rounds are loaded (in case of  T-72 manual assume AP-HEAT-HE [or AP-HE-HEAT can't remember] are loaded in sequence so to load same round type you need to skip two).

 

You reply suggests you have knowledge in tank gun for certain designs, most likely Russian.

However not all tank guns work the same way. The video below illustrates the semi-automatic breech common of modern NATO tanks (British 120mm and Rh120 family both share it).

 

Unlike traditional artillery, the recoil is short and fast. The breech opens by a pull of handle and closes automatically once a round is inserted. The 120mm ammo has combustible propellant so no need to clear used shell.

 

Fire correction and adjustment are the gunner's job, which in game is also the players job and also extends the time required between shots. This is realistic.

To aid with reloading, Leopard 2 and Abrams can be set to memorize a "loading position" after firing every round if the gun is pointing very up or down, then return to the aimed position for the next shot.

 

In most cases, a trained NATO crew and reload faster than they do in game.

 

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Loongsheep

[ColdMatches 943]

2 hours ago, Loongsheep said:

The T-72 style autoloader loads one round in about 7 seconds, not any slower or faster as it its mechanics are fixed

The AZ (T-72/T-90 tanks have this) autoloader loads a shell in 6.5 seconds.

http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/EQP/al-72.html

 

The MZ (T-64/T-80 tanks) loads a shell in 6 seconds.

 

30 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

In most cases, a trained NATO crew and reload faster than they do in game.

However only granted when stationary. Plus, that video looks like six seconds, which is what the 120mm reload is in game.

 

I have tried to change the MZ and AZ reload but obviously failed despite providing a cyclogram for each.

 

I had also pointed out that the T-80U'S reload (which is 6.5 seconds) is completely fantasy.

Their response for why? Balance.

 

Gaijin uses reloads as a balancing factor, and as such it's impossible to change them. So there goes the dream of having a decent reload on the T-64A/B/T-80B/T-72A.

Edited February 18, 2020 by ColdMatches

[aja318 375]

43 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

 

You reply suggests you have knowledge in tank gun for certain designs, most likely Russian.

However not all tank guns work the same way. The video below illustrates the semi-automatic breech common of modern NATO tanks (British 120mm and Rh120 family both share it).

 

Unlike traditional artillery, the recoil is short and fast. The breech opens by a pull of handle and closes automatically once a round is inserted. The 120mm ammo has combustible propellant so no need to clear used shell.

 

Fire correction and adjustment are the gunner's job, which in game is also the players job and also extends the time required between shots. This is realistic.

To aid with reloading, Leopard 2 and Abrams can be set to memorize a "loading position" after firing every round if the gun is pointing very up or down, then return to the aimed position for the next shot.

 

In most cases, a trained NATO crew and reload faster than they do in game.

 

 

7s between shots, 6s if you squint with no adjustment meaning it's just pushing rounds downrange without having to move to next target.

Shot happen at 5s mark, loading is done, breech close 11s mark, loader signal being done at 12s mark while at 13s we hear gunner, second hot happen at 15s mark so 10s.

With minimal correction you will get 10s from that.

EDIT: 8s stock reload is quite generous if this is representative.

EDIT 2: Note how breech open after recoil stroke is finished despite action being automatic and.that alone takes 1s, then there is closing action and loader moving lever next to the breech while moving away to safe position while breech is closing, another 1s total for about two seconds of mechanism working. Fast, yes, instantaneous, no.

Edited February 18, 2020 by aja318

[Loongsheep 5,339]

15 minutes ago, ColdMatches said:

The AZ (T-72/T-90 tanks have this) autoloader loads a shell in 6.5 seconds.

http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/EQP/al-72.html

 

The MZ (T-64/T-80 tanks) loads a shell in 6 seconds.

 

Spoiler

 

 

However only granted when stationary. Plus, that video looks like six seconds, which is what the 120mm reload is in game.

 

I have tried to change the MZ and AZ reload but obviously failed despite providing a cyclogram for each.

 

I had also pointed out that the T-80U'S reload (which is 6.5 seconds) is completely fantasy.

Their response for why? Balance.

 

Gaijin uses reloads as a balancing factor, and as such it's impossible to change them. So there goes the dream of having a decent reload on the T-64A/B/T-80B/T-72A.

Yeah, I know the T-80 type autoloader is under-performing. Which is strange considering the Leclerc and Type 90 get historical reload speed which is even faster.

The video is to show how the breech operates, the loader isn't aiming for maximum reload speed. I prefer Gaijin models the manual loading speed slowing down when the tank is mobile, which isn't hard to do as the ATGM already has similar system (cannot fire when over a certain speed).

 

According to current crew, most loader can reload one round in 5 seconds when tank is stationary.

 

11 minutes ago, aja318 said:

7s between shots, 6s if you squint with no adjustment meaning it's just pushing rounds downrange without having to move to next target.

Shot happen at 5s mark, loading is done, breech close 11s mark, loader signal being done at 12s mark while at 13s we hear gunner, second hot happen at 15s mark so 10s.

With minimal correction you will get 10s from that.

EDIT: 8s stock reload is quite generous if this is representative.

Sorry I didn't explain enough, the video is to show you how the breech works, not about loading speed.

The loader wasn't pushing it at all and there was a malfunction with the breech.

 

[aja318 375]

22 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

Yeah, I know the T-80 type autoloader is under-performing. Which is strange considering the Leclerc and Type 90 get historical reload speed which is even faster.

The video is to show how the breech operates, the loader isn't aiming for maximum reload speed. I prefer Gaijin models the manual loading speed slowing down when the tank is mobile, which isn't hard to do as the ATGM already has similar system (cannot fire when over a certain speed).

 

According to current crew, most loader can reload one round in 5 seconds when tank is stationary.

 

Sorry I didn't explain enough, the video is to show you how the breech works, not about loading speed.

The loader wasn't pushing it at all and there was a malfunction with the breech.

 

After second shot/first reloading which is what I counted. Either way only so much time you can really save by moving fast and only so long it can be sustained (which also come into calculating certain types of RoF) even ignoring that aiming can be not insignificant factor.

Point is, many factors and we should use same standard everywhere it is possible (admittedly hard since nice tables with precise plentiful information aren't abundant I mean compare this in terms of information with some note just stating rate of fire).

[GoddePro 1,146]

sorry to digress back to the original topic :P

I would just like to say that your advice has been very useful. I had a few games last night and got 2-3 kills in both, which is a lot better than my maybe-1-kill which I was getting before.

I wanted to send the replay, but couldn't find it in the list in the war thunder replays section. Any help on finding replays would be great

16 hours ago, ColdMatches said:

I have tried to change the MZ and AZ reload but obviously failed despite providing a cyclogram for each.

 

I had also pointed out that the T-80U'S reload (which is 6.5 seconds) is completely fantasy.

Their response for why? Balance.

 

Gaijin uses reloads as a balancing factor, and as such it's impossible to change them. So there goes the dream of having a decent reload on the T-64A/B/T-80B/T-72A.

yeah, I suppose it'll change at some point... hopefully...

Spoiler

nah, it'll never change

 

[BadOpinionHaver 2,092]

Sorry to bring back this thread, does anyone know if there's a way to shoot the 30mm cannon of the BMP-3 while turning the turret? For some reason it doesn't act like other coaxial machine guns so it only fires when the 30mm is in line with the aiming circle.

[GoddePro 1,146]

1 hour ago, watch_your_fire said:

Sorry to bring back this thread, does anyone know if there's a way to shoot the 30mm cannon of the BMP-3 while turning the turret? For some reason it doesn't act like other coaxial machine guns so it only fires when the 30mm is in line with the aiming circle.

that sounds like a bug

[BadOpinionHaver 2,092]

6 minutes ago, GoddePro said:

that sounds like a bug

It's just how the game deals with tanks with multiple guns, I was hoping there might be a way to fix it in the settings

 

this is what I mean btw

Spoiler

the aiming circle for the 30mm goes red when you try and fire while the turret rotates, it makes it near impossible to shoot down planes.

Also, the second aiming circle jitters around a lot, it's distracting and honestly I've just been playing my BMP-2 to avoid all the hassle

[GoddePro 1,146]

1 hour ago, watch_your_fire said:

It's just how the game deals with tanks with multiple guns, I was hoping there might be a way to fix it in the settings

 

this is what I mean btw

  Reveal hidden contents

the aiming circle for the 30mm goes red when you try and fire while the turret rotates, it makes it near impossible to shoot down planes.

Also, the second aiming circle jitters around a lot, it's distracting and honestly I've just been playing my BMP-2 to avoid all the hassle

is there a setting to switch between main gun and secondary gun?

[BadOpinionHaver 2,092]

12 hours ago, GoddePro said:

is there a setting to switch between main gun and secondary gun?

There is, but doing so blocks you from firing the 100mm, thus defeating the purpose of taking the BMP-3 in the first place. 

[GoddePro 1,146]

On 09/05/2020 at 04:25, watch_your_fire said:

There is, but doing so blocks you from firing the 100mm, thus defeating the purpose of taking the BMP-3 in the first place. 

yeah, that's a bug...

I would report it, but I'm one vehicle away from unlocking rank VII, so someone else will have to do it unless you're willing to wait a few weeks

[BadOpinionHaver 2,092]

23 hours ago, GoddePro said:

yeah, that's a bug...

I would report it, but I'm one vehicle away from unlocking rank VII, so someone else will have to do it unless you're willing to wait a few weeks

Sometime when I get a few days off I plan to

[aja318 375]

It isn't a bug, selecting secondary weapon stop you from using you general trigger from firing primary (MGs also can't be fired), same happen when you select primary weapon, secondary is deactivated (but MGs work). You can also reset your selection to fire both guns at once. Custom key binds required.