indigenous The best WW2 tank ever made by a minor nation: Hungary's 44M Tas

[Victory_799@psn 101]

Tanks from minor nations are not very common, and usually they are just slight upgrades of other nations' tanks. Truly indigenous and unique tank designs from minor nations are rare, and those that are capable too are even more rare, but one which is entirely indigenous and better than all tanks from minor nations and even many tanks from major nations? Well there's only one:

  I would like to present the best WW2 tank from any minor nation – Hungary's 44M Tas!  

 

Specifications: (from Wikipedia)

 

Mass: 38 tonnes (37 long tons; 42 short tons)*

Length: 9.2 m (30 ft 2 in) with gun facing forwards*

Width: 3.5 m (11 ft 6 in)*

Height: 3 m (9 ft 10 in)*

Crew: 5 (Commander, Gunner, Driver, Loader, Radio Operator)

Armour: 20–120 mm (0.8–4.7 in)

Main armament:

-For production vehicles: 1 × 80 mm 29/44.M Bofors L/58 cannon (80 mm Bofors AA gun heavily modified for anti-tank use)
-For prototype vehicles: 1 × 7.5 cm 43.M tank gun

Secondary armament: 2 × 8 mm Gebauer 1934/40A M machine gun

Engines: 2 × gasoline Weiss Manfréd Z-V8H-4; 2 × 260 hp (2 × 195 kW) for a total of 520 hp (390 kW)

Power to weight ratio: 13.68 hp/ton

Suspension: two-wheel leaf spring bogies with shock absorbers

Operational range: 200 km (120 mi)

Maximum speed: 45 km/h (28 mph)

 

Type: Medium / Heavy tank

Place of origin: Kingdom of Hungary

Used by: Kingdom of Hungary

Wars: World War II

Designer: Weiss Manfréd Works

Designed: 1943

Manufacturer: Weiss Manfréd Works

Produced: 1943–1944

Number built: 2 prototypes

44M Tas specifications (from Tank Encyclopedia)
Approximate dimensions	6.3 × 3.15 × 2.7 m (20’8” × 10’4” × 8’10”)
Total weight	36.6 t
Crew	5 (commander, driver, gunner, loader, radioman)
Propulsion	2 × Weiss Manfréd V-8H, water cooled V8 petrol, 520 hp (2 × 260 hp, 388 kW), power to weight ratio of 14 hp/t
Suspension	Leaf springs
Estimated maximum speed	45 km/h (28 mph)
Armament, planned for series production	29/44M 80 mm (3.15 in) Bofors/DIMÁVAG L/58 2 × 34/40AM 8 mm (0.31 in) Gebauer machine guns
Armament, prototypes	43M 75 mm (2.95 in) L/43 (L/46 according to another source) coaxial 34/40AM 8 mm (0.31 in) Gebauer machine gun
Armour	20 to 120 mm (0.79-4.7 in)
Total production	Two partially completed prototypes

 

*Note: different sources state the dimensions of the Tas differently, however according to Károly “Karika” Németh in this source, the smaller dimensions are the correct ones, with the larger dimensions having been made due to a mistake. Therefore the dimensions from Wikipedia are likely wrong. From the bottom picture in the spoiler below, you can see how the two sizes compare and how much larger the Tas was originally thought to be.

Spoiler

 

What is the 44M Tas?

 

The 44M Tas is an entirely Hungarian designed heavy/medium tank of World War II. It resembled the German Panther tank, both in terms of looks and capabilities. Comparing the two tanks, the Tas had better armour than the Panther, similar mobility, the turret was further forward, the suspension design was different and the Tas would have had a powerful 80 mm gun, possibly as powerful as the Panther's legendary 75 mm KwK 42. Since the 80 mm gun that was chosen for the Tas needed further development before being ready, the engineers decided to use a temporary replacement gun – the 75 mm 43.M (which is similar in performance to the Panzer IV H's 75 mm KwK 40). I was asked by a forum moderator to not suggest the 44M Tas' 80 mm gun here, as this gun was planned for production vehicles whilst the 75 mm gun was planned for prototype vehicles, and production vehicles never made it into production, whilst prototype vehicles did. Therefore, I am suggesting the Tas' 75 mm gun being added to War Thunder but not its 80 mm gun. 

 

Brief history of the 44M Tas:

 

By 1943 Hungary’s tank production was becoming obsolete and it struggled against the modern, well armoured Soviet tanks. In response, Hungary started to develop the Turán III medium tanks (similar to a Panzer IV H) and Zrínyi I assault guns (similar to a StuG III G). However, Hungary still tried to buy the licence of powerful German vehicles such as the Panzer IV H and the Panther, but Germany refused to sell the licences. Hungary therefore had no other option than to design its own modern heavy tank to counter modern Soviet tanks with. In April 1943 the Ministry of Defense (HM) ordered the Weiss Manfréd factory to design the vehicle. The preliminary blueprints for the Tas prototypes were ready in record time, by the end of August 1943. In the same year, a group of military experts from the Institute of Military Technology of the Hungarian Army (HTI) travelled to Kummersdorf, Germany where they inspected the infamous Tiger and Panther tanks. However, these tanks were not shown to them from the inside. Since they were the only Hungarians to see the legendary German vehicles from up close in the given year, 3 HTI specialist officers took part in the design of the Tas from the very beginning. The blueprints with all of the necessary data and budget plans were finished by 3 December 1943, with photos of the 1:10 scale metal mockup of the new vehicle being given to the HTI on 6 December 1943. The vehicle ended up looking very similar to the Panther. The new heavy tank was named ‘Tas’ in honour of one of the Seven Chieftains of the Magyars (Hungarians). The HM accepted the plans and production of the iron sample vehicle started in May 1944. Construction of the prototype vehicle progressed slowly because it was not based on any existing tank, being a completely unique design. Furthermore, the tank had thick 75 and 120 mm armour plates that had to be welded together – whilst the Toldi light tanks had welded armour too, it had very thin armour plates, therefore welding these much thicker armour plates together was a relatively new, challenging method for the engineers. The engineers constantly discovered newer and newer problems which needed addressing. Constant material shortages and Allied bombing raids didn’t help either. The chassis of the Tas' iron sample vehicle was ready in June 1944 with a fully operational suspension system and the engines installed, with the turret's construction underway. Unfortunately, on 27 July 1944 an Allied bombing raid hit and seriously damaged the Weiss Manfréd factory. The production hall where the Tas was being made collapsed and the iron prototype vehicle completely burned out and was destroyed. The Hungarians tried to restart the project at Ganz factory but they didn't have enough time to actually start the rebuilding of the prototype. Not much progress was made on restarting the Tas project before the Soviets invaded Hungary, capturing vital factories, crushing all hope to finish the project.

 

The Design of the Tas:

 

The suspension of the Tas was a native design, using 3 × two wheel bogies with leaf springs and shock absorbers. It had 6 medium sized road wheels, a drive wheel at the front and an idler wheel at the rear, with 5 return rollers above the road wheels. The same layout would be found on the other side. This suspension system would likely result in a smooth ride for the vehicle and its crew, whilst providing a more stable platform for firing on the move.

When it came to the engine, the Hungarians didn’t have many engines to choose from. At first, building a new V12 engine for the tank, with at least 700 hp, was considered, but unlike with the more industrialised major powers, this option was not very likely for Hungary as it would have taken too much time, resources and capacity, to design and build a powerful new engine. Instead, the engineers decided that the Tas would be powered by 2 × 8 cylinder Weiss Manfréd Z-V8H-4 gasoline engines from the Turán I/II (as both Turáns used the same engine). Each engine provided 260 hp (195 kW) for a total of 520 hp (390 kW). This choice had the benefits of using already tested engines in production and there were available spare parts for this engine, unlike with a new engine, which would also take a long time to develop, switch to producing and would not be compatible with other Hungarian tanks.

The drawback of this choice is that 520 hp for a tank that would weigh around 38 tonnes, would result in only around 13.68 hp/tonne, which is somewhat low. It was estimated this would give the Tas a top speed of 45 km/h and an operational range of 200 km. However, the actual mobility of the Tas may have been a little worse though, as when using two engines together to power one gearbox, some power is usually lost. Although it is still possible that the Tas could achieve these speeds as some tanks could still reach similar speeds with similar power-to-weight ratios.

 

The hull of the Tas resembled the Panther’s hull, but with notable differences such as a frontal mid plate and angled corners joining the upper front plate to the upper sides of the hull. According to a surviving drawing of the hull armour thicknesses, the front of the hull of the Tas would have a heavily sloped 75 mm thick upper front plate, a 100/120 mm thick mid plate at a slight slope and a heavily sloped 75 mm thick lower plate. The Tas had sloped, angled corners of the upper front plate, but their thicknesses are unknown, although some estimate them to be 50 mm. The sides of the hull were protected by 50 mm of sloped armour above the tracks and 50 mm of vertical armour behind the tracks. The upper section of the rear of the hull would be 100 mm thick with a slight slope and the lower section of the rear would be 50/75 mm at a decent slope. The belly and deck (underside and top of the hull) were both 20 mm thick.

Many sources list the maximum armour thickness as 120 mm so this seems to be the correct value for the mid front plate. Also it may have been increased from the original 100 mm or there might be some contradicting information. The hull was welded together which, when combined with its thick armour, meant the vehicle would have very good protection, even better than that of the German Panther (the Panther had welded but thinner armour).

Not as much is known about the turret armour thicknesses as mostly only written documents survived. However, the rough armour thickness seems to be 100 mm all around, although the rear of the turret is listed as 50 mm thick rather than 100 mm thick in one source. It seems that the front of the turret would actually be 200 mm thick in total as the mantlet thickness is said to be 100 mm thick as well. The turret had a somewhat octagonal shape with a large, wide and curved gun mantlet, like that of the Panther A/D, but larger, covering the whole turret front. On top of the turret was a cupola with a hatch for the commander and another hatch for the gunner.

 

According to the original plans and the 1:10 scale metal mockup, the Tas would be armed with an 80 mm main gun – the 80 mm (3.15 in) 29/44M L/58 gun. Developed by DIMÁVAG, this was a heavily modified, licence produced derivative of the 80 mm Bofors anti-aircraft gun (which the Hungarians used as the 80 mm 29/38M L/48 anti-air gun). The 1:10 scale mockup of the Tas was modelled with this 80 mm 29/44M L/58 gun. The first prototype of the 29/44M gun was ready in October 1943, however during its first firing trials some serious flaws were revealed, requiring further development to fix. Thanks to this, it was estimated that the mass production of this 80 mm gun could not start earlier than the summer of 1944, therefore a temporary/stopgap main armament for the Tas prototypes had to be chosen. The engineers selected a 75 mm gun for this – the 7.5 cm 43.M tank gun. This is the same 75 mm gun that was used on the Turán III and the Zrínyi I. Since the 7.5 cm 43.M gun already had 2 finished examples, the production of the gun would go more smoothly than waiting for the 80 mm tank gun to be developed and then produced. With the 75 mm gun, the finished sample vehicle made of iron could be tested in the field and could easily be modified later to mount the 80 mm gun which was predicted to be ready by the time a serial vehicle made of armour plates would be finished. Ultimately, due to material shortages, the third 7.5 cm 43.M gun was never finished by the time the Tas prototypes were destroyed by Allied bombing and the DIMÁVAG factory which produced the gun was later captured by the Soviets. Both the 80 mm and 75 mm guns had gun depression and elevation angles of -9° and +20° respectively.

The planned 80 mm tank gun would have likely performed quite a bit better than the 75 mm gun, as the Hungarians wouldn't have bothered trying to develop it and make it the main armament of the Tas if it wouldn't be a noticeable improvement over the 75 mm gun.

 

Not too much is known about the 80 mm 29/44M L/58 gun, although according to one source, the penetration is estimated to be 171.4 mm and it can fire AP (probably APCBC or APHE rather than solid AP) and HE. From another source,  some details can be found about the ammunition that the 80 mm 29/44M L/58 gun can fire; it says it can fire 29/35.M páncélgránát (APHEBC-T) shells, with a mass of  8 kg and an explosive filler of  Pentolite 50/50 (mix of 50% TNT and 50% PETN). It also says this gun can fire HE, but doesn't provide details on the HE shell. Both sources say the 80 mm 29/44M L/58 had a muzzle velocity of 872 m/s for its AP (APHEBC-T according to the second source) shell. They both also state the ammunition capacity as 50-80 rounds for the 80 mm gun.

 

The Tas was also armed with a coaxial machine gun – an 8 mm Gebauer 1934/40A M. A second machine gun placed in the front of the hull and controlled by the radio operator was also considered although it is not present on the mockup photos – it may have been removed from the design or it may have been added after the mockup photos were made.

The 8 mm Gebauer 1934/40A M machine gun (also called 1934/40.M or 34/40M) is a gas-operated Hungarian tank machine gun. It is chambered for 8x56mmR and is belt fed. Its muzzle velocity is 730 m/s and its rate of fire is 1000 rounds per minute, although these are given as 750 m/s and 950 rpm respectively in the same document but referenced to a different source. According to this source, the Tas seems to be able to take 3000 rounds of machine gun ammunition in 100 round belts. Reportedly, the unique sound of these Gebauers brought fear to the Soviet soldiers on the Eastern Front. All captured useable Gebauer machine guns were taken by the Red Army back to the USSR.

 

Surviving blueprints of the 44M Tas and the only (known) surviving part of the Tas – the gun sight/optics for the 80 mm main gun: (credit to @atta26hu for finding these)

Spoiler

The Tas' transmission

The Tas' gear reverser and gear shift

The Tas' steering and clutch

The blueprint of the idler wheel of the Tas

The Tas' gearbox

The blueprint of the running gear of the Tas

The engine's position/location when viewed from the crew compartment

Image of the surviving gun sight/optics for the 80 mm main gun of the 44M Tas

The surviving gun sight/optics for the 80 mm main gun of the 44M Tas (longer/above) with the M4 Sherman's gun sight for comparison (shorter/below)

Presumably the reticle for the Tas' main gun sight/optics

 

Why add the 44M Tas to War Thunder?

 

There are many good reasons the 44M Tas should be added to War Thunder, firstly from a gameplay perspective, it would be the first heavy tank in the Italian tree, thus being vital for completing heavy tank challenges. The Tas would also have a unique playstyle for Italian tanks as it would finally give Italy a well-armoured WW2 vehicle that can rely on its strong armour, unlike their endless unarmoured trucks, cars and light tanks, or their numerous average armour tanks and SPGs. It would also be a vital part of Italy’s mid tier WW2 tanks, completing their 4.7 lineup (if it becomes a 4.7 tank). Since the Tas is from a minor nation, is a completely unique/indigenous design, most people haven’t heard of it, and it is a capable mid tier vehicle (rather than some low tier one), it would make for an interesting new addition for people to learn about, and an enjoyable vehicle to play. From a symbolic perspective, it is the only true Hungarian heavy tank, and the only true heavy tank from any minor nation. Considering it is also the best tank ever made by a minor nation during WW2, it should certainly have a place in this game. From a historical perspective, the Tas was an impressive accomplishment for Hungarian tank design and had a unique story cut short by the fate of history and the tide of the Second World War. It has been largely forgotten with few people knowing it ever existed. Why should we let such an impressive feat and design for a minor nation be forgotten when we have the perfect place for this vehicle to live on in and demonstrate its capabilities in?

 

How would the Tas be added to War Thunder?

 

Since all future Hungarian vehicles have been confirmed to be coming to the Italian tree, it is safe to assume the Tas will be added to the Italian tree under a Hungarian flag. It could be added as a researchable vehicle in a Hungarian sub tree for Italy, like how Finnish vehicles got added as a sub tree for Sweden. It could also be added as a premium tank for Golden Eagles, likely costing somewhere around 1750-2980 GE. This option would perfectly fill in Italy's massive premium tank gap from the 3.7 Panzer IV G to the 6.3 M26 "D.C.Ariete" (fitting nicely between these at around 4.7). Another option would be to add the Tas as an event premium vehicle or a battle pass vehicle, however I don’t think these options are the right choice for the Tas as they would seriously limit how many people can get this already forgotten tank – it shouldn’t be forgotten in War Thunder too. Furthermore, battle pass and event premiums are usually strange, unconventional and experimental vehicles – the Tas doesn’t fit this trend as it is a conventional tank, it is like the Hungarian equivalent of the Tiger I or Panther so I would recommend adding the Tas as a researchable vehicle or as a GE premium vehicle.

I wanted both the 75 mm (75 mm 43.M) and 80 mm (80 mm 29/44M L/58) guns to be options for the Tas, but a moderator told me only to suggest the 75 mm gun and not the 80 mm gun because prototype vehicles (planned to have the 75 mm gun) were built, but production vehicles (planned to have the 80 mm gun) weren't.  Which guns the Tas gets is Gaijin's choice in the end. If they do decide to consider the 80 mm gun, the Tas could be added as one tank with access to both guns or as two separate tanks with one having the 75 mm gun and the other having the 80 mm gun (at a higher BR like 5.3).

 

Another choice to consider is what battle rating (BR) the Tas should be. I think the Tas (with the 75 mm gun) should be a BR 4.7 vehicle, or possibly even a 4.3. My justification for this is that the Tas uses the same gun (75 mm 43.M) as the Zrínyi I (BR 4.0), but it has better armour and a turret. Because of the better armour and being turreted, the Tas should be at a higher BR than the Zrínyi I, but not at too high of a BR, or else its gun would be useless at such a tier. We can think of the Tas as having the gun of a 4.0 tank and the armour of a 5.0 tank, so the tank should overall be a 4.3 or 4.7 vehicle – at a lower BR than this the Tas' armour would be too strong, but at a higher BR than this the Tas' gun would be too weak.

 

The last thing to consider would be whether the Tas should be classed as a heavy tank or a medium tank. I think it should be a heavy tank – whilst the Tas is similar to the Panther which is classed as a medium, the Tas has better armour than the Panther, is a little bit slower, and has a 75 mm gun that is not as strong as the Panther's very powerful main gun. Since the Panther is already considered a medium/heavy hybrid, the fact that the Tas is more armoured and a little bit slower is enough to class it as a heavy tank. Furthermore, Hungary classed the Tas as a heavy tank and when you look at the Tas from a minor nation's point of view, it was the most armoured WW2 tank ever made by any minor nation. Also, heavy tank classification is not based on a specific weight or armour thickness, but more so on what the vehicle prioritises. Since the Tas clearly prioritised armour and firepower over mobility, just like any other heavy tank, it should be classed as one. After all, the Italian P26/40 was classed as a heavy tank whilst weighing a puny 26 tonnes and having poor protection, with its thickest armour being only 60 mm. Contrast that to the 36.6 or 38 tonne Tas with 120 mm thick angled armour plates and around a 200 mm thick turret front. Another example is how the Sherman Jumbo (M4A3E2) is classed as a heavy tank in War Thunder, whilst only weighing 37.8 tonnes – the Tas weighs around this much as well, with similarly good armour and a better gun. From a gameplay point of view the Tas should also be classed as a heavy tank because Italy doesn't have any heavy tanks in their entire tree. At least if the Italian tree had the Tas, Italy players could complete heavy tank challenges.

 

What would it be like in War Thunder?

 

The Tas would likely be played somewhat like a Panther, using strong frontal armour to take hits whilst returning fire with a capable gun and then repositioning/flanking using decent mobility. Tas players would have to hide their weak side armour and make sure not to be flanked. Also the Tas’ 20 mm thick deck armour would be vulnerable to CAS aircraft with AP belts and cannons. The Tas would have pretty similar mobility to the Panther, however it would likely have a much better reverse speed, possibly being able to go backwards as fast as it can drive forwards. This is because Hungarian tanks in general usually have good reverse speeds (e.g. Turán and Zrínyi tanks), and considering the Tas is powered by two of the Turán’s engines, it will likely also inherit the Turán’s ability to reverse as fast as it can go forwards. This is also supported by a source claiming the Tas had 5 forward gears and 5 reverse gears. The Tas would be like a more armoured Panther, with roughly the same mobility and a weaker gun (the 75 mm 43.M gun) – therefore we can say it would be like a Panther-Tiger hybrid. Since the Tas prioritises armour over mobility, it should be classed as a heavy tank (it was classed as one in real life). The 44M Tas (prototype) with the 75 mm 43.M gun, likely at 4.7, would fit nicely into the Italy 4.7 ground lineup alongside the M4 Tipo IC, 75/46 M43 Semovente, Breda 501, SM.92 and C.205 serie 3.

 

Details of the Tas' guns and how these would perform in War Thunder:

 

The 75 mm 43.M tank gun is already in War Thunder as the Zrínyi I's main gun, so its performance when mounted on the Tas should be almost identical, apart from reload time which can be lowered for the Tas to compensate for it having the same gun as a 4.0 TD at a higher BR such as 4.7. It may also have slightly more penetration and muzzle velocity on the Tas as the Tas' 75 mm 43.M gun may have been a bit longer. From this source, the gun depression and elevation angles on the 44M Tas seem to be -9° and +20° respectively. I was asked by a forum moderator to not suggest the 44M Tas' planned 80 mm 29/44M L/58 gun for production vehicles here, as production vehicles armed with the 80 mm gun never made it into production. I have left information about this 80 mm gun in the 'Design of the Tas' section above just in case, however the 80 mm gun is not being suggested for addition to War Thunder, only the 75 mm gun (for prototype vehicles) is being suggested for addition into the game. With that being said, the 44M Tas (prototype) with the 75 mm gun (likely at 4.7) might struggle to penetrate well-armoured tanks in an uptier, although it probably could still destroy such tanks from the sides or by shooting their weak points.

 

The Tas' secondary armament – the Hungarian 8 mm Gebauer 1934/40A M tank machine gun – seems to already be in War Thunder as the 34/40M, however from the in-game image this instead looks like a 1934/37A M or a 1934A M machine gun. Also its in-game rate of fire is 900 rpm, whereas my main source says the rate of fire was 1000 or 950 rpm. I’m not sure what the muzzle velocity is in-game but according to my source it should be 730 or 750 m/s. The belt capacity of 100 rounds seems to be correct.

 

Below you can see what War Thunder's 34/40M looks like compared to the real 34/40M, as well as the gun that Gaijin likely modelled instead of the 34/40M:

Spoiler

The 34/40M (Gebauer 1934/40A M) in War Thunder:

 

The Gebauer 1934/40A M (also called 34/40M or 34/40A) in real life. This is what War Thunder's 34/40M should look like:

 

Two Gebauer 1934/37A M machine guns (in a twin gun mount). War Thunder's 34/40M looks like this gun instead:

 

In War Thunder the Tas would have a coaxial 8 mm Gebauer 1934/40A M (also called 1934/40.M or 34/40M) machine gun which would be vital for destroying trucks and open-top vehicles. A second machine gun in the front of the hull (controlled by the radio operator) was also considered during development so the Tas might also get this second machine gun, although this likely won’t be as useful as the coaxial one as it would only be able to fire in the direction that the hull is facing. According to this source, the Tas seems to be able to take 3000 rounds of machine gun ammunition in 100 round belts – this is plenty of machine gun ammunition in War Thunder. Reportedly, the unique sound of these machine guns brought fear to the Soviet soldiers on the Eastern Front, however I have no idea what these guns sounded like so what they would sound like in War Thunder is up to Gaijin to decide.

^{Above from left to right: the Gebauer 1934/40A M, a cross-section diagram of the Gebauer 1934/40A M, the feeding system of the Gebauer 1934/40A M. These images can be found in large at the end of this post under the gallery section.}

 

 

If you want to see more about this tank, watch ConeOfArc's video on the 44M Tas:

 

Sources used:

I use brackets like these {note} at the end of sources for any notes about the sources.

 

• Németh, Károly (18 May 2017). "44M Tas" . Tank Encyclopedia . {An encyclopedia website about tanks, this article being specifically on the 44M Tas. At the bottom of the article can be found a full list of the sources used in the article.}
• Jacky 95 (12 April 2018). "The 44.M Tas Prototype Heavy Tank" . Hungarianmilitaryww2 . {A website about the 44M Tas, includes lots of detailed information, mostly reliable although not fully.}
• Pap, Péter (28 September 2012).  "ADATTÁR GEBAUER FERENC FEGYVERKONSTRUKTŐR PÁLYAFUTÁSÁHOZ ÉS AZ ÁLTALA TERVEZETT LŐFEGYVEREK KATEGORIZÁLÁSA"  [Data Repository on the career of firearms designer Ferenc Gebauer and the categorisation of the firearms designed by him] (PDF). Hadtörténelmi Közlemények a Hadtörténeti Intézet és Múzeum folyóirata (in Hungarian). 125 (3) – via epa.oszk.hu. {A journal source, contains information on the Gebauer machine gun that the 44M Tas would have had as its secondary armament and its ammunition, contains references to where the information is from.}

 

Sources I only used for a few sentences:

 

• Németh, Károly (27 October 2014). "Hungarian Branch in WoT – Part 4: Tas medium tank" . For the Record . {An article specifically on the 44M Tas}
• Németh, Károly (4 February 2014). "88mm Hungarian Tas? Nope…" . For the Record . {An article specifically on the 44M Tas and misconceptions about it. At the bottom of the article can be found a list of the sources used in the article.}
• ( 9 June 2013 ). "44M Tas - Wikipedia" . Wikipedia .

 

 

 

Now, over to you. What are your thoughts on the 44M Tas? Do you think it should be added to War Thunder?

 

 

Gallery:

 

Below is an image of the 44M Tas' scale model next to that of the Turán II. Below that is an image showing the Tas' 1:10 scale mockup from more angles, and below that is a drawing of the hull armour thicknesses and dimensions of the Tas (the thicknesses may have been changed after this drawing was made, so it may be outdated), then a drawing of the hull and suspension of the Tas with dimensions, followed by another drawing of the Tas' hull. Below those are two images of a model of the Tas, showing what it could have looked like when battle-ready (credits to Mig Eater for this model). Below those are three images of the Tas' machine gun, the 8 mm Gebauer 1934/40A M. The first of these images shows the gun itself, the second image shows a cross-section diagram of the machine gun and the third image shows the feeding system and ammunition of the Gebauer 1934/40A M. The next four images were found by @atta26hu. The first of these is the blueprint of the running gear of the Tas, the second image is the blueprint of the idler wheel of the Tas. The third and fourth images are of the only known surviving part of the 44M Tas – the gun sight/optics for the 80 mm main gun. Note that the fourth image shows two gun sights/optics, the Tas' gun sight is the top/longer one, whilst the bottom/shorter one is the M4 Sherman's gun sight placed there for comparison. The final image is presumably the reticle for the Tas' main gun sight/optics (Source: https://www.facebook.com/hadtorteneti.muzeum/posts/.. ).

Note that images of the 44M Tas show it with the 80 mm gun whereas in my suggestion I am only allowed to suggest the 75 mm gun.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Victory_799@psn

[Thatz 637]

Open for Discussion 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Thatz

[Victory_799@psn 101]

53 minutes ago, Thatz said:

After reviewing your suggestion, I will be able to open your suggestion however I will have you ask that you remove the 3rd poll as the 80mm was not made.

Please make these changes within 48 hours. if changes are not made within 48 hours the post will be archived.

Hi, you say that the 80 mm gun was not made, but according to my sources it was. Where have you heard that the 80 mm gun was never made? In this source (under the armament section) it says that (at least) one example of the 80 mm gun was made and tested. I've also seen some data for this gun's performance (which I included in my post). I've never come across any source saying the 80 mm gun was never made. I will remove the 3rd poll question if it turns out that the 80 mm gun was never made.

[G1label 143]

+1 I would like to see both versions put at 5.0 and 5.3 respectively.

[Охраняет-Камни 6,650]

Despite it has a very low chance to be introduced into the game, because there are no photos of the prototype available, I would love to see it in WT, it would be a nice surprise.

[Victory_799@psn 101]

9 minutes ago, _Condottiero_ said:

Despite it has a very low chance to be introduced into the game, because there are no photos of the prototype available, I would love to see it in WT, it would be a nice surprise.

There are no surviving photos of the prototype that have been found, but there could be some out there that haven't been found yet, many photos and documents of these Hungarian WW2 vehicles only surfaced in the 1990s or 2000s (such as the scale mockup photos of the Tas). The Tas should have a fine chance to be added to War Thunder, it shouldn't need a real photo of the prototype to be added.

[Mahiwew 528]

+1, though not for Italy

I recommend adding more neutral options for where the vehicle should be added, as there are plenty of people who disagree with the addition of Hungarian vehicles to the Italian tree.

Perhaps add an option to vote +1 on both versions too?

[eleks12 1,079]

Wasn't this suggestion banned in the great suggestion cleanup for being either a bundle or a unfinished prototype?

 

 

Whatever the case. +1 For an Eastern Europe Tech Tree imo.

[Milocat 4,854]

+1 with other Hungarian vehicles.

[Thatz 637]

3 hours ago, eleks12 said:

Wasn't this suggestion banned in the great suggestion cleanup for being either a bundle or a unfinished prototype?

Not banned just removed anything from that list can be re suggested unless paper or otherwise stated.

 

4 hours ago, Victory_799@psn said:

Hi, you say that the 80 mm gun was not made, but according to my sources it was. Where have you heard that the 80 mm gun was never made? In this source (under the armament section) it says that (at least) one example of the 80 mm gun was made and tested. I've also seen some data for this gun's performance (which I included in my post). I've never come across any source saying the 80 mm gun was never made. I will remove the 3rd poll question if it turns out that the 80 mm gun was never made.

There are more sources stating the factory that the tank was being made in was leveled by allied bombing before they ever fitted it to the tank at the time of the bombing they only ever fitted the 75mm on the prototype, the tank never got to the production stage. https://thearmoredpatrol.com/2017/06/03/44m-tas-panthers-hungarian-cousin/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/44M_Tas

http://ftr.wot-news.com/2013/06/17/hungarian-armor-part-1-44m-tas-and-tas-rohamloveg/

 

It was bombed before the 80mm was ever fitted on the tank and at the time of the bombing on some of the sources it would of been fitted with the 75mm as they made the choice to fit the 75mm. The finished product being the 75mm prototype

 

I'm 95% you were also told the same thing last time you wanted to make the suggestion.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Thatz

[JamesPond1200@psn 299]

I believe there are more than enough examples of "what if" and "would have been" in War Thunder to justify the 80mm gun. Keep it in. Furthermore, I believe this is one of the most well-researched, well-written, and overall best suggestion posts on this forum, and you should be commended for that. Your sources are clear and there is plenty of information to make a strong case for the 80mm gun. +100 Amazing job.

Edited March 22, 2023 by JamesPond1200@psn

[DMYEugen 688]

+1 No issues here. As long as there's enough information to create a relatively accurate in-game representation, I see no issue with the addition of either variant.

[lLiberté 345]

7 hours ago, Thatz said:

It was bombed before the 80mm was ever fitted on the tank and at the time of the bombing on some of the sources it would of been fitted with the 75mm as they made the choice to fit the 75mm. The finished product being the 75mm prototype

 

I'm 95% you were also told the same thing last time you wanted to make the suggestion.

 

 

  We should clarify something first, for a vehicle to be eligible for suggestion it was to have at least one unique part of said vehicle needed to be built, right ? According to what @Victory_799@psngathered, 80 mm 29/44M L/58, which is a modified Bofors 80mm L/50 anti-aircraft gun, was built and it was to be main armament of production variant of 44M. So there is one unique part is built, not fitted but built. 

 

  This would not be the first time to have a vehicle in its ahistorical configuration, we had them before even one implemented just recently. For reference M6A2E1 was implemented in its ahistorical armor scheme, to my limited knowledge Yak-141's prototype was never had IRST (feel free to correct me), it was to have if it ever went to production just like 44M, no ? Though having one post for two separate variants of same vehicle is an issue.

 

  All in all, definitely +1 for both variants, either in Italian tech-tree as part of Hungarian Sub-Branch, or standalone Hungarian TT. Ideally, 75mm variant as premium and 80mm as tech-tree vehicle. (Though you could argue actually built-one should be in TT, cannot disagree with that too)

 

 

[Thatz 637]

59 minutes ago, Dewastor said:

 

  We should clarify something first, for a vehicle to be eligible for suggestion it was to have at least one unique part of said vehicle needed to be built, right ?

Yes however there are more sources stating the 80mm was not complete then there are stating it was. This in this post it states many places they are just suggesting the 75mm version I am just asking that they removed the 80mm version.

[Victory_799@psn 101]

15 hours ago, Mahiwew said:

+1, though not for Italy

I recommend adding more neutral options for where the vehicle should be added, as there are plenty of people who disagree with the addition of Hungarian vehicles to the Italian tree.

Perhaps add an option to vote +1 on both versions too?

Good point, I have added another poll question for what tree the Tas should be added to. The option to vote for both 'versions' of the Tas is to vote yes for the Tas and then vote yes for the 80 mm gun, that way you are voting yes for both the Tas 75 mm and Tas 80 mm. Can you vote again or does it not allow you to now that I've changed the poll?

[atta26hu 108]

Really nice topic, well done! I would like to see both 80 and 75 mm versions in game.

 

Its really interesting to see that a minor nation, Hungary could catch up with tank designing to mid-late war desings.

 

Interesting story is that the hungarian engineers and high ranking millitary personal went to Germany and looked, checked the Panther at a demo, took notes and then came back to Hungary. When they designed the new tank the TAS, they took ideas from that interaction with the german tank and (if I am right) thats why its really similar to the panther.

 

Its really good that it has 5 reverse gears, same as forward, same with the Zrínyis and the Turáns, its an interesting thing about them.

 

The question is that should the TAS come with a 120mm plate or with the 100mm?

 

I think the turret was all around 100mm, what source mentions the rear of the turret being less than 100mm, because a lot of the time I see that is is mentioned with all around having 100mm.

 

Another interesting thing is that in Hungary the classification of a heavy tank was different, like the Turán II which had a 75mm guns was called a heavy tank, Nehéz Turán-Heavy Turán.

I agree that because it has more armour than the Panther it should be a heavy tank, and in Hungary it was classified as a hevy tank too.

 

I think 4.7 would be a low BR, the Churchill VII(I love this tank) is at 4.7 which has 100mm pen and has 152mm of armor, the TAS would be faster and better at everything than the Churchill, I think it should go to 5.0 or 5.3. (I am referring to the 75mm TAS) but thats Gaijins decision where the tank will go.

[Victory_799@psn 101]

14 hours ago, Thatz said:

There are more sources stating the factory that the tank was being made in was leveled by allied bombing before they ever fitted it to the tank at the time of the bombing they only ever fitted the 75mm on the prototype, the tank never got to the production stage. 

 

It was bombed before the 80mm was ever fitted on the tank and at the time of the bombing on some of the sources it would of been fitted with the 75mm as they made the choice to fit the 75mm. The finished product being the 75mm prototype

 

I'm 95% you were also told the same thing last time you wanted to make the suggestion.

Quote

however I will have you ask that you remove the 3rd poll as the 80mm was not made.

I think that there is a misunderstanding here. You said "the 80 mm was not made", I thought that by this you meant that the 80 mm gun was not made (I'm pretty sure it was), but now I think that you were trying to say that the 44M Tas armed with an 80 mm gun was never made/built/completed, in which case you are correct, a 44M Tas with an 80 mm gun in the turret was never made. You are also correct in saying that the WM factory was bombed by the Allies destroying the half-complete Tas. However you are wrong when you say "they only ever fitted the 75mm on the prototype". The 75 mm gun was never mounted on the Tas either. The Tas' hull was completed in June 1944 and then they began making the turret (the 75 mm gun was being made somewhere else), then in July 1944 the factory and the Tas' hull were all destroyed. They tried to restart the project but eventually cancelled it as they realistically couldn't complete it at that point.

 

Your argument here seems to be (correct me if I'm wrong):

-Tas with 75 mm gun inside its turret was completed (false)

-Tas with 80 mm gun inside its turret was not completed (true)

-Therefore can suggest the 75 mm gun but don't suggest the 80 mm gun

 

My argument is:

-Tas was partially finished so it can be suggested

-75 mm gun was made, it was going to be the Tas' temporary gun so it can be suggested

-80 mm gun was made, it was going to be the Tas' actual/production gun so it can be suggested

 

Neither of the two guns were mounted to the Tas in real life (because of the destruction of the Tas), so are you saying I can only suggest a turretless hull? That would make no sense as the E-100 (with its turret and gun) was added to War Thunder despite it being in an identical situation; the hull was (almost) complete and the turret and gun were never complete/mounted. I'm sure that there are plenty of tanks in WT that never had a gun/turret/component mounted to them in real life, but those components did exist and were supposed to be mounted to said tank. The rules state: 

What constitutes an (unfinished) prototype:

• Vehicle was (partially) constructed (yes for the 44M Tas)
• Vehicle-specific parts (i.e. guns, powerplants, etc.) were built (yes for the 80 mm gun, 75 mm gun and the Tas)

Yes I was already told something similar by another moderator, but I disagree because you seem to be contradicting the rules. You are asking me to suggest a vehicle only with its temporary placeholder gun and not its proper gun which existed and was being improved as the Tas was being made, and would've been ready for mass production just after they finish the Tas prototype and then they would've switched to the 80 mm gun. So if the engineers wouldn't have picked a placeholder gun, would you be telling me that I can't suggest any gun for the Tas? I just don't see what separates the 75 mm gun from the 80 mm gun and why the former can be suggested but the latter can't.

 

I see it like this:

-Engineers design Tas with 80 mm gun

-Engineers realize the 80 mm gun still needs fixing before being ready

-Engineers choose a 75 mm placeholder gun so that the Tas can be built whilst the 80 mm gun is fixed and when the Tas prototype is complete they can test it with the 75 mm gun first and then when the 80 mm gun is finished they can replace the 75 mm gun with the 80 mm gun and test the Tas with the 80 mm gun

-Then the Tas would be produced with 80 mm guns from then on.

 

This feels like you telling me to suggest the Maus tank's wooden mockup turret (used to simulate the weight of the real turret) rather than suggest the actual turret. 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Victory_799@psn

[Victory_799@psn 101]

11 hours ago, JamesPond1200@psn said:

I believe there are more than enough examples of "what if" and "would have been" in War Thunder to justify the 80mm gun. Keep it in. Furthermore, I believe this is one of the most well-researched, well-written, and overall best suggestion posts on this forum, and you should be commended for that. Your sources are clear and there is plenty of information to make a strong case for the 80mm gun. +100 Amazing job.

Thank you very much, I truly appreciate it! I spent quite some time writing this post and I tried to cover everything that a suggestion could cover, I'm glad that my work paid off. I just hope more people will see my post, I am not only suggesting the Tas here so that it can be added to War Thunder but I am also trying to popularise this largely forgotten tank.

 

As for the 80 mm gun I totally agree; it existed, had a complete example, was tested, was going to be mass produced and was going to be the Tas' main armament. Only because the 80 mm gun had some flaws during the firing trials (so it needed further development) did the engineers decide to find a 75 mm temporary replacement gun until the 80 mm gun was finished. I honestly don't see anything wrong with this and why some people say I can't suggest the 80 mm gun.

[JamesPond1200@psn 299]

1 minute ago, Victory_799@psn said:

Thank you very much, I truly appreciate it! I spent quite some time writing this post and I tried to cover everything that a suggestion could cover, I'm glad that my work paid off. I just hope more people will see my post, I am not only suggesting the Tas here so that it can be added to War Thunder but I am also trying to popularise this largely forgotten tank.

 

As for the 80 mm gun I totally agree; it existed, had a complete example, was tested, was going to be mass produced and was going to be the Tas' main armament. Only because the 80 mm gun had some flaws during the firing trials (so it needed further development) did the engineers decide to find a 75 mm temporary replacement gun until the 80 mm gun was finished. I honestly don't see anything wrong with this and why some people say I can't suggest the 80 mm gun.

You're welcome! I hope we see this tank added and recognized by more people!

Do not back down on this issue. Bring it all the way to the top if you have to. There is no reason to not keep the 80mm gun in the suggestion.

[jon_man1199 563]

A definite +1 from me, to be honest It would be a neat tank to have with either the 75mm or the 80mm. Also, nice job on the research and writing, it was most definitely an interesting read. 

Edited March 22, 2023 by jon_man1199

[ofekk213 251]

+1

 

The Yak-141 gets an IRST sensor that was never made and the Japaneae get the F-16AJ which was never made, so the 80mm is very justified here.

 

I'd love seeing both the 75mm version and 80mm version ingame.

[JamesPond1200@psn 299]

5 minutes ago, ofekk213 said:

+1

 

The Yak-141 gets an IRST sensor that was never made and the Japaneae get the F-16AJ which was never made, so the 80mm is very justified here.

 

I'd love seeing both the 75mm version and 80mm version ingame.

This! This is all the argument you need. The 80mm gun is more real than either of those, so what's the issue?

[Victory_799@psn 101]

8 hours ago, Dewastor said:

 

  We should clarify something first, for a vehicle to be eligible for suggestion it was to have at least one unique part of said vehicle needed to be built, right ? According to what @Victory_799@psngathered, 80 mm 29/44M L/58, which is a modified Bofors 80mm L/50 anti-aircraft gun, was built and it was to be main armament of production variant of 44M. So there is one unique part is built, not fitted but built. 

 

  This would not be the first time to have a vehicle in its ahistorical configuration, we had them before even one implemented just recently. For reference M6A2E1 was implemented in its ahistorical armor scheme, to my limited knowledge Yak-141's prototype was never had IRST (feel free to correct me), it was to have if it ever went to production just like 44M, no ? Though having one post for two separate variants of same vehicle is an issue.

 

  All in all, definitely +1 for both variants, either in Italian tech-tree as part of Hungarian Sub-Branch, or standalone Hungarian TT. Ideally, 75mm variant as premium and 80mm as tech-tree vehicle. (Though you could argue actually built-one should be in TT, cannot disagree with that too)

 

 

I think I see what you're saying, if I understand correctly, you are basically saying "Let there be two tanks, the 75 mm Tas prototype and the 80 mm Tas production. We have established that the 75 mm Tas prototype is eligible as it had a complete hull and gun. Since the 80 mm Tas production had a complete 80 mm gun, and the rules state that this is enough, we can also say that the 80 mm Tas production is eligible.", in which case you seem to be correct.

 

I fully agree with the second paragraph, there are even more examples of this like the R2Y2, which in reality was just a propeller aircraft, but in WT it is a jet fighter!

 

I also wanted to address this: "Though having one post for two separate variants of same vehicle is an issue.". The 75 mm gun and 80 mm gun are just two different guns that would have been mounted to the exact same model of tank, and even the exact same physical prototype (from my understanding). Other than the gun itself there is no difference between the Tas with a 75 mm gun and the Tas with an 80 mm gun, it's not like a Tas V1 and Tas V2, it's more like putting a 47 mm gun into a T-34 until the intended 76 mm gun is finished. Now as proof take the Toldi, Turan or Zrinyi Hungarian tanks, these have many variants (Toldi I, II, IIA, III, Turan I, II, III, Zrinyi I, II). Each variant is renamed for the year of that variant, for example the Zrinyi II is called "43M Zrinyi II" and the Zrinyi I is called "44M Zrinyi I". The Turan I, II and III are called 40M, 41M and 43M Turan respectively (so when you call the 44M Tas the "44M", it doesn't mean much because it just means "model 1944", the name of the tank itself is "Tas").

 

But overall, thanks for the support, I think Hungarian vehicles should go into an Italian sub tree, as a Hungarian-only tech tree would be too copy-paste and would have lineup issues. I think both "variants" (since in WT it can be split up into two tanks) should be tech tree vehicles because then the Hungarian tank line would have fewer BR jumps, for example [4.3] 43M Turan III to [4.7] 44M Tas (75 mm) to [5.3] 44M Tas (80 mm).

[RycotSS 220]

1 hour ago, ofekk213 said:

+1

 

The Yak-141 gets an IRST sensor that was never made and the Japaneae get the F-16AJ which was never made, so the 80mm is very justified here.

 

I'd love seeing both the 75mm version and 80mm version ingame.

Exactly. The Yak-141 was given IRST and HMD on the basis of that it may have been given these if the plane actually entered production. There should be no problem with giving this thing the 80 mm if it was intended for it to have that 80 mm when entering production.

Also: Extremely well done suggestion! One of the most detailed ones I've read! Huge +1.

Edited March 22, 2023 by RycotSS

[Victory_799@psn 101]

8 hours ago, Thatz said:

Yes however there are more sources stating the 80mm was not complete then there are stating it was. This in this post it states many places they are just suggesting the 75mm version I am just asking that they removed the 80mm version.

I'm not sure what you mean here, the 80 mm gun (29/44M L/58) was made, completed and tested. As for the 44M Tas with the 80 mm gun mounted, that was not completed (because the Tas was destroyed before it was finished). Yes in my post I said in many places that I'm not suggesting the 80 mm gun and am only suggesting the 75 mm gun, but that is because I was told to do so, not because that's what I believe is right.