MBT-70/Kampfpanzer-70

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

Obj 286?

 

I think I typo'd that. Obj. 268. As spitfire said, it was basically just a T-10 with a superstructure replacing the turret and a 152mm AT gun.

[SuperTechmarine 1,575]

The KPz. 70 is virtually exactly what I described. The multifuel engine was good for only 1,100 HP (In comparison to 1,500) when running on gasoline. That's historic, it is a fact, it is realistic. The autoloader was also slower than humans, from what i've heard. That means the rate of fire is likely no faster than 4 rounds per minute.

The MBT-70 on the other hand, is going to have to have 1,470 HP. It was a gasoline engine, and you can't run those on diesel. 

 

The problem with the above being, someone's going to cry bias when the German one has 370 HP less...

 

And artificially nerf? Mate, look at the M103. The reload is more than TWICE as long as it historically was. 

 

The Kpz has a MTU engine with 1500HP, dunno what you're talking about.

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

The Kpz has a MTU engine with 1500HP, dunno what you're talking about.

 

 It was a multifuel engine. That means it's designed to run with Diesel, but can run on whatever if Diesel isn't available. That means when only gasoline is available, the engine will run, but at a much lower efficiency. That means it'll only produce 1,100 HP.

[SuperTechmarine 1,575]

 It was a multifuel engine. That means it's designed to run with Diesel, but can run on whatever if Diesel isn't available. That means when only gasoline is available, the engine will run, but at a much lower efficiency. That means it'll only produce 1,100 HP.

 

But at max efficiency it has 1500HP, which is what it should have, as all tanks in the game run at maximum efficiency. You haven't see any Tigers or Panthers breaking down have you?

[KB_TheDireWolf 700]

A T-10 chassis with a long barreled 152mm AT gun.

Um holy crap. I think the Russians need that than because the ISU-152 with the howitzer is a bad T5 end of the line TD. With the heavy armour tanks at T5 I don't think that a Howitzer is ineffective. Also I've never seen a person in the ISU-152.

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

But at max efficiency it has 1500HP, which is what it should have, as all tanks in the game run at maximum efficiency. You haven't see any Tigers or Panthers breaking down have you?

 

Remind me, did the Panther run on a multifuel engine?

--

 

The peak efficiency of the Ka-500, while running on gasoline, was 1,100 HP. 

The peak efficiency of the Ka-500, while running on diesel, was 1,500 HP. 

 

Giving it gasoline is not some non-historic nerf...

Edited January 9, 2015 by BlitzkriegWulf

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

Um holy crap. I think the Russians need that than because the ISU-152 with the howitzer is a bad T5 end of the line TD. With the heavy armour tanks at T5 I don't think that a Howitzer is ineffective. Also I've never seen a person in the ISU-152.

 

You're right. You can find the same tank at a fair BR in Tier 3. It's known as the SU-152...

 

Fun fact: ISU and SU 152's were produced within months of one another, yet one is getting screwed by the MM.

[SuperTechmarine 1,575]

Remind me, did the Panther run on a multifuel engine?

--

 

The peak efficiency of the Ka-500, while running on gasoline, was 1,100 HP. 

The peak efficiency of the Ka-500, while running on diesel, was 1,500 HP. 

 

Giving it gasoline is not some non-historic buff...

 

But it was mainly designed for diesel, which is what it should be using in-game. My statement about the Panther is to illustrate my point that every tank runs at peak condition. A mainly diesel engine shouldn't be using gasoline, because at its peak condition, with efficient logistics, it should be using diesel (which is what practically everyone was running at the time). Additionally, even with 1100HP, its still strong enough to wipe out all existing tanks, and the projected 60's trio. Only the late Cold War tanks can match it, diesel or gasoline.

Edited January 9, 2015 by SuperTechmarine

[Spitfire_ 7,306]

Um holy crap. I think the Russians need that than because the ISU-152 with the howitzer is a bad T5 end of the line TD. With the heavy armour tanks at T5 I don't think that a Howitzer is ineffective. Also I've never seen a person in the ISU-152.

With the current line ups we have ingame, the 268 will be overkill, it will shit on the jtiger and provide a unkillable sniper.

 

Would be better to wait when we get more era 5 tanks before introducing. Right now the ISU should be downtiered and some object bla bla bla 100mm put in place.

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

But it was mainly designed for diesel, which is what it should be using in-game. My statement about the Panther is to illustrate my point that every tank runs at peak condition.

 

It was designed to run on various fuels, hence the name, multifuel. 

 

It just so happens it had the most power with Diesel because that's what the germans wanted. In reality, it could run either or, depending on what was available. So if we just decide that Diesel isn't available at the time, it only gets 1,100 HP.  I'm not swinging any artificial nerf bat here mate, i'm swinging the reality bat. 

 

 

Also, vehicles don't run at their peak efficiency from the beginning. Look at planes for example. Some planes come a thousand horses short of what they should have, until you fully upgrade them.

 

What they dont have, is randomized failures, etc.

Edited January 9, 2015 by BlitzkriegWulf

[SuperTechmarine 1,575]

It was designed to run on various fuels, hence the name, multifuel. 

 

It just so happens it had the most power with Diesel because that's what the germans wanted. In reality, it could run either or, depending on what was available. So if we just decide that Diesel isn't available at the time, it only gets 1,100 HP.  I'm not swinging any artificial nerf bat here mate, i'm swinging the reality bat. 

 

 

Also, vehicles don't run at their peak efficiency from the beginning. Look at planes for example. Some planes come a thousand horses short of what they should have, until you fully upgrade them.

 

But fully upgraded they have their (close-as-possible) historical performance. You can't just decide that diesel isn't available, or I can I just say the Tiger over there doesn't need its gun anymore "No spare parts were available", the Panther I'll tell him "M'sorry, no transmission for you, don't have any". The King Tiger? "No fuel, sorry. Should have won at Stalingrad". Me-262? "Your engine exploded, and I got none available, deal with it." See my point? This might be a bit exaggerated, but I'm swinging the reality bat just as you are.

 

 

P.S: Can't find anything on this legendary 1100HP with gas, could you post your source?

[Tank50us 266]

Yes, the MBT-70 used a multi-fueled engine, but so did just about EVERY NATO tank at the time. Why? Because NATO planners flat out knew that if the Soviets came charging, the only thing you could do was delay them. Meaning you'd be fighting a DEFENSIVE war, and thus, relying on what ever supplies you could find that hadn't been destroyed so that you could keep going just that little bit more.

 

And they weren't always that reliable either. The Chieftain for example was horrendously unreliable in the early years (due to the engine being designed for a machine about 10t lighter then Chieftain was), but the problems were eventually worked out, and the Chieftain became a great tank. When the Soviets found out how potent it could be, they sent units of T-64s along the lines where Chieftains were located.

[KB_TheDireWolf 700]

With the current line ups we have ingame, the 268 will be overkill, it will **** on the jtiger and provide a unkillable sniper.

Would be better to wait when we get more era 5 tanks before introducing. Right now the ISU should be downtiered and some object bla bla bla 100mm put in place.

You're right. You can find the same tank at a fair BR in Tier 3. It's known as the SU-152...

Fun fact: ISU and SU 152's were produced within months of one another, yet one is getting screwed by the MM.

Well beside the Obj 286 as you guys are talking about what about the Obj 704 with the BL-10 152mm? That could be a perfect fit for the end of the Russian tank line. Hell the thing still exists at the Kubinka Tank Museum (although the one in the museum has a howitzer). Edited January 9, 2015 by KB_TheDireWolf

[SuperTechmarine 1,575]

Yes, the MBT-70 used a multi-fueled engine, but so did just about EVERY NATO tank at the time. Why? Because NATO planners flat out knew that if the Soviets came charging, the only thing you could do was delay them. Meaning you'd be fighting a DEFENSIVE war, and thus, relying on what ever supplies you could find that hadn't been destroyed so that you could keep going just that little bit more.

 

And they weren't always that reliable either. The Chieftain for example was horrendously unreliable in the early years (due to the engine being designed for a machine about 10t lighter then Chieftain was), but the problems were eventually worked out, and the Chieftain became a great tank. When the Soviets found out how potent it could be, they sent units of T-64s along the lines where Chieftains were located.

 

Oh wow, not only you didn't answer my question, you went off in a off-topic tangent without any sources to back you up.

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

But fully upgraded they have their (close-as-possible) historical performance.

 

You can't just decide that diesel isn't available, or I can I just say the Tiger over there doesn't need its gun anymore "No spare parts were available", the Panther I'll tell him "M'sorry, no transmission for you, don't have any". The King Tiger? "No fuel, sorry. Should have won at Stalingrad". Me-262? "Your engine exploded, and I got none available, deal with it." See my point? This might be a bit exaggerated, but I'm swinging the reality bat just as you are.

 

 

P.S: Can't find anything on this legendary 1100HP with gas, could you post your source?

So every other tank you buy comes fully upgraded, yeah?

 

And actually I can. Fuel shortages were VERY real in war. It can be made as a T IV mod to unlock Diesel (Because it's a +400 HP boost... which is like 30% increase in power. that's pretty big.)

 

On the other hand you can't just load someone's tank hull into a game, because then you're not playing a game, you're wasting your time. a 400 HP reduction to a 1,500 HP capable engine is not going to brake a game the same way turning a Tiger II into a poor excuse for a bunker would.

 

 

P.S. Maybe in a bit ;) (Yes I have a source... just not sure if I want to give it to you) (Pro tip: If you're looking for info on a german tank you get better results searching for german sources...)

 

 

Yes, the MBT-70 used a multi-fueled engine, but so did just about EVERY NATO tank at the time. Why? Because NATO planners flat out knew that if the Soviets came charging, the only thing you could do was delay them. Meaning you'd be fighting a DEFENSIVE war, and thus, relying on what ever supplies you could find that hadn't been destroyed so that you could keep going just that little bit more.

 

Pretty sure the US MBT-70 used a V-12 twin turbo (2 stage... So technically if you only used low boost you'd get less power...) Gas engine. 

 

MTU developed a multifuel engine for their version, the KPz.

[SuperTechmarine 1,575]

 

So every other tank you buy comes fully upgraded, yeah?

I never said that. What I said is that when it's fully upgraded it's as close as can be to historical performance.

 

And actually I can. Fuel shortages were VERY real in war. It can be made as a T IV mod to unlock Diesel (Because it's a +400 HP boost... which is like 30% increase in power. that's pretty big.)

I had no idea Germany was lacking in Diesel in the 1970's with all the diesel Leopard 2s running around burning diesel. But your suggestion is good. But again, there's no reason to take away the diesel. Why would you do that?

 

 

On the other hand you can't just load someone's tank hull into a game, because then you're not playing a game, you're wasting your time. a 400 HP reduction to a 1,500 HP capable engine is not going to brake a game the same way turning a Tiger II into a poor excuse for a bunker would.

But you're still gimping it significantly without reason. If you remove the Keiler's diesel, I can remove the King Tiger's fuel, because that's essentially what you're doing, significantly nerfing a vehicle's performance because 'balance'.

 

 

P.S. Maybe in a bit ;) (Yes I have a source... just not sure if I want to give it to you) (Pro tip: If you're looking for info on a german tank you get better results searching for german sources...)

If you have a source just post it then. Quit wasting my time, I'm here wondering if you're either telling the truth or a very convincing liar. Meanwhile Hunicutt says the MBT-70 only had Diesel, DF-1 and DF-2 fuel with 1050 net HP at 2800RPM

 

Nevermind found your 'source'...And it's the German wikipedia.

 

 

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

 

 ^^ And this is why I tell people to not write in my posts.... ^ Don't do it.

 

 

yes, so fully upgraded, it will have the diesel fuel available. 

 

I'm not taking the diesel away... just making it a challenging upgrade to get. Why? Because at 30 hp/ton it's more than double that of the T-62.

 

And both tanks had a variety of engines. It's no surprise hunnicutt says one thing, wikipedia says another, and various other sources say yet something else.

 

 

Oh no! Wikipedia! It's the end of the bloody world!..... Wikipedia actually has some pretty good info, and it actually a pretty good quick-info source. Perhaps not as reliable as other sources, but it's not saying that the KPz. 70 was powered by a Detroit Diesel, is it?

[Grand_Moff_Tano 3,460]

Oh wow, not only you didn't answer my question, you went off in a off-topic tangent without any sources to back you up.

Right, because SuperEgo lost the ability to use google or accept when he's wrong.

[SuperTechmarine 1,575]

 ^^ And this is why I tell people to not write in my posts.... ^ Don't do it.

 

 

yes, so fully upgraded, it will have the diesel fuel available. 

 

I'm not taking the diesel away... just making it a challenging upgrade to get. Why? Because at 30 hp/ton it's more than double that of the T-62.

 

And both tanks had a variety of engines. It's no surprise hunnicutt says one thing, wikipedia says another, and various other sources say yet something else.

 

 

Oh no! Wikipedia! It's the end of the bloody world!..... Wikipedia actually has some pretty good info, and it actually a pretty good quick-info source. Perhaps not as reliable as other sources, but it's not saying that the KPz. 70 was powered by a Detroit Diesel, is it?

 

If it's an upgrade, fine. I still think Diesel should be stock. But I'll end the debate here, and we'll agree to disagree. You have your opinion, I'll have mine.

 

 

And did I say anything about Wikipedia? I just found no immediate citations to it, so I was naturally skeptical.

 

As to summarize my opinion on the MBT-70. Sure, eventually, when Gaijin decides it's time to advance the timeline, add the Leo 2s and Abrams and T-64s and all that jazz. Have the MBT-70 as

1. A Tier V premium, where the modern tanks would be Tier VI
2. (MBT-70) A regular preceding the M1 Abrams  for Americans, (Kpz-70) and Leopard 2 for Germans.

This is assuming Gaijin decides someday to add modern tanks. If they do, MBT away. If not, no MBT-70.

[Grand_Moff_Tano 3,460]

If it's an upgrade, fine. I still think Diesel should be stock. But I'll end the debate here, and we'll agree to disagree. You have your opinion, I'll have mine.

 

 

And did I say anything about Wikipedia? I just found no immediate citations to it, so I was naturally skeptical.

 

As to summarize my opinion on the MBT-70. Sure, eventually, when Gaijin decides it's time to advance the timeline, add the Leo 2s and Abrams and T-64s and all that jazz. Have the MBT-70 as

1. A Tier V premium, where the modern tanks would be Tier VI
2. (MBT-70) A regular preceding the M1 Abrams  for Americans, (Kpz-70) and Leopard 2 for Germans.

This is assuming Gaijin decides someday to add modern tanks. If they do, MBT away. If not, no MBT-70.

Actually although the MBT-70 and KPz-70 lead to the M1 Abrams and Leopard 2, it certainly didn't' have any advantages over the T-64.

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

If it's an upgrade, fine. I still think Diesel should be stock. But I'll end the debate here, and we'll agree to disagree. You have your opinion, I'll have mine.

 

 

And did I say anything about Wikipedia? I just found no immediate citations to it, so I was naturally skeptical.

 

As to summarize my opinion on the MBT-70. Sure, eventually, when Gaijin decides it's time to advance the timeline, add the Leo 2s and Abrams and T-64s and all that jazz. Have the MBT-70 as

1. A Tier V premium, where the modern tanks would be Tier VI
2. (MBT-70) A regular preceding the M1 Abrams  for Americans, (Kpz-70) and Leopard 2 for Germans.

This is assuming Gaijin decides someday to add modern tanks. If they do, MBT away. If not, no MBT-70.

 

When you put "source" in quotes and then say "Oh... It's a German Wikipedia page", it seemed to give it a negative connotation to it. Maybe it was just me...

 

 

Meh. I feel like they opened a jar of worms by admitting the T-62A and the Leopard 1. Granted, the current situation isn't right by any stretch, with 1945 tanks fighting 1950's tanks, but it's a far cry better than trying to balance tank combat from the 60's.

[SuperTechmarine 1,575]

When you put "source" in quotes and then say "Oh... It's a German Wikipedia page", it seemed to give it a negative connotation to it. Maybe it was just me...

 

 

Meh. I feel like they opened a jar of worms by admitting the T-62A and the Leopard 1. Granted, the current situation isn't right by any stretch, with 1945 tanks fighting 1950's tanks, but it's a far cry better than trying to balance tank combat from the 60's.

 

T-62, no A.

 

60's combat is not that hard actually. Most of it is "Who shoots first". Which is probably what it would have been in real life, at the time, L7 tanks and 115 tanks can pen each other from the front with no trouble. Though no tanks from before 60's should face them, this should be easy enough. But then again it's also easy enough to down-tier the Me-262, and look where Gaijin is taking that idea.

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

T-62, no A.

 

60's combat is not that hard actually. Most of it is "Who shoots first". Which is probably what it would have been in real life, at the time, L7 tanks and 115 tanks can pen each other from the front with no trouble. Though no tanks from before 60's should face them, this should be easy enough. But then again it's also easy enough to down-tier the Me-262, and look where Gaijin is taking that idea.

 

Meh. I feel like everyone shoots APDS and most tank combat i've been in is sub 1km.... which means that most rounds would pen MBT-70....

 

 

So really it would just be a big light tank that packs a punch.

 

 

I feel like the only time it would be super duper OP would be at engagement ranges of more than 1km. (Which, they happen, but not on a common basis iirc)

Edited January 9, 2015 by BlitzkriegWulf

[SuperTechmarine 1,575]

Meh. I feel like everyone shoots APDS and most tank combat i've been in is sub 1km.... which means that most rounds would pen MBT-70....

 

 

So really it would just be a big light tank that packs a punch.

 

Well, it's invulnerable to HEAT shells, so it has that going for it, which is nice.

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

Well, it's invulnerable to HEAT shells, so it has that going for it, which is nice.

 

Well... Yeah... but I don't know very many people who load HEAT as their very first round unless the AP is a sad excuse for a tank round (Like the short 75 on low tier germans..)

 

Most people I know just load up the standard AP, or the APCR/APDS.