MBT-70/Kampfpanzer-70

[Grand_Moff_Tano 3,460]

If I remember correctly, the MBT-80 was made of steel and to have had Composite armour, the early form of what would become Chobham Armour, attached to the turret.

Edited May 9, 2016 by SqnLdrAhsokaTano

[arczer25 5,202]

about final design i thought about:

US: XM60 (M60 with composite and 120mm T123E6), T95 series, rest of M48 and M60 finally ending with M60AX (new engine giving 21h/t new suspension and other stuff and armor upgrade of spaced and composite armor.)

RU would get more their own tanks (T55, T62, maybe few objects) ending with first T-64

GB moar centurions and ending probably with chieftain mk 5 or 6

now bigger problem, Germans... they can get few leopards, but don't have that "final" tank, sure Kamppanzer keller with early Rheinmetall 120mm or KPz 70 but we would end again nowhere...

Keller have gun capable of penetrating any upper mentioned tank without much problem (so all new armor would be negated...), and it is very fast.

KPz 70 is bit problematic, it have high end protection and mobility, but gun, the gun have HEAT round only capable of penetrating 350mm... then we have APFSDS with have estimated penetration of 220-250mm 2km with L/D ratio 1/8, also disappointing... and finally ending with Shillelagh MGM-51C AGTM capable of penetrating 600-670mm, but in order to fire ATGM few circumstances needs to be meet (no move, target in LoS, etc..). so in total bit strange, but better than all armor negating Keller.

Edited May 9, 2016 by arczer25

[Urho3000 341]

about final design i thought about:

US: XM60 (M60 with composite and 120mm T123E6), T95 series, rest of M48 and M60 finally ending with M60AX (new engine giving 21h/t new suspension and other stuff and armor upgrade of spaced and composite armor.)

RU would get more their own tanks (T55, T62, maybe few objects) ending with first T-64

GB moar centurions and ending probably with chieftain mk 5 or 6

now bigger problem, Germans... they can get few leopards, but don't have that "final" tank, sure Kamppanzer keller with early Rheinmetall 120mm or KPz 70 but we would end again nowhere...

Keller have gun capable of penetrating any upper mentioned tank without much problem (so all new armor would be negated...), and it is very fast.

KPz 70 is bit problematic, it have high end protection and mobility, but gun, the gun have HEAT round only capable of penetrating 350mm... then we have APFSDS with have estimated penetration of 220-250mm 2km with L/D ratio 1/8, also disappointing... and finally ending with Shillelagh MGM-51C AGTM capable of penetrating 600-670mm, but in order to fire ATGM few circumstances needs to be meet (no move, target in LoS, etc..). so in total bit strange, but better than all armor negating Keller.

How can a 152mm HEAT shell only pen 350mm when the 105mm HEAT shell for the L7 can pen ~500mm?

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

How can a 152mm HEAT shell only pen 350mm when the 105mm HEAT shell for the L7 can pen ~500mm?

The caliber of HEAT doesn't actually matter too much for penetration, it is actually more about shell design.

[Urho3000 341]

The caliber of HEAT doesn't actually matter too much for penetration, it is actually more about shell design.

And where is the source, which stated the 350mm?  Could you at least provide a source showing the design? Didn't it have a form cap?

Edited May 23, 2016 by Urho3000

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

And where is the source, which stated the 350mm?  Could you at least provide a source showing the design? Didn't it have a formed cap?

That would also be good to know.

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

And where is the source, which stated the 350mm?  Could you at least provide a source showing the design? Didn't it have a formed cap?

That would also be good to know.

 

 

I've seen the figure somewhere.. it sounds familiar enough...

 

 

 

(Yeah, helpful, I know  :?s )

 

The place I found it, however, seemed pretty unofficial. Arczer probably has the data to back his claim up though.

 

 

Edit: Was something like this I think...

http://www.williammaloney.com/aviation/WatervlietArsenalMuseum/TankCannon/pages/04_152mmM409HEATRound.htm

Edited May 23, 2016 by BlitzkriegWulf

[Urho3000 341]

I saw that link from the museum, too. Usually I'd accept that as a source, but 350mm for a 152mm HEAT shell from 1969 does simply sound too bad to be true.

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

I saw that link from the museum, too. Usually I'd accept that as a source, but 350mm for a 152mm HEAT shell from 1969 does simply sound too bad to be true.

 

Meh. There's a first for everything, but yeah, pretty crummy when the competition has 400mm HEAT-FS that'll do 1,200 m/s.

 

 

 

Actually, no, I lied. I found diagrams and some info. give me a moment... just checking it out.

Edited May 23, 2016 by BlitzkriegWulf

[Results45 2,200]

How can a 152mm HEAT shell only pen 350mm when the 105mm HEAT shell for the L7 can pen ~500mm?

 

And where is the source, which stated the 350mm?  Could you at least provide a source showing the design? Didn't it have a formed cap?

 

Well, both the hydropneumatic suspension (allows for additional depression) and 120mm gun from the Kpz-70 did make it over to the Leopard 2 so......whatever 120mm ammo Gaijin wants to base penetration values on.

 

http://echo501.tripod.com/Military/120ammo.htm

 

Approximate 120mm gun penetration values:

• Chinese Type 89 (or experimental gun) HEAT/APFSDS --- 450mm @ 2km, ~500mm @ 1km, ~545mm @ 100m @ 0 degrees
• German DM-13 APFSDS --- 380mm @ 2km, ~430mm @ 1km, ~475mm @ 100m @ 0 degrees
• German DM-43 APFSDS --- 450mm @ 1km, ~495mm @ 100m @ 0 degrees
• US T32 & T43 (M103 protopype) HVAP/APBC --- 381mm @ 1km, ~426mm @ 100m @ 0 degrees
• British L11A5 L-15 APDS --- 305mm @ 2km, ~355mm @ 1km, ~400mm @ 100m @ 0 degrees
• British L11A5 L-23/US XM-827 APFSDS --- 450mm @ 2km, ~500mm @ 1km, ~545mm @ 100m @ 0 degrees

 

note: the German DM-13 & DM-43 rounds could be added in-game with the Leopard 1A6 and Kpz-70

Edited May 23, 2016 by Results45

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

So, Cutaway diagram below, and some information.. didn't think I saw any penetration info yet, but I'll keep looking...

[Results45 2,200]

So, Cutaway diagram below, and some information.. didn't think I saw any penetration info yet, but I'll keep looking...

 

Where did you access that tech-manual?

Edited May 23, 2016 by Results45

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

Where did you access that tech-manual?

 

Errrrrrrrrrrrrr....... Sekrit Dokument!! Yes, that is it :p     I.... have my methods :) Doesn't really state much more than the obvious though, does it? Sure, it's a cutaway, but what else is a HEAT warhead supposed to look like?

 

 

Anyhow, if you wish to inquire about other ammos for this gun I might be able to pull similar diagrams up.

Edited May 23, 2016 by BlitzkriegWulf

[Results45 2,200]

--- snip ---

 

Found it: https://archive.org/stream/milmanual-tm-43-0001-28-army-ammunition-data-sheets/tm_43-0001-28_army_ammunition_data_sheets#page/n171/mode/2up

 

Also, the following link isn't official, but it does back-up the fact that the M551 Sheridan's 155mm M81 M409 HEAT round has a penetration value of 355mm @ all ranges @ 0 degrees: http://www.williammaloney.com/aviation/WatervlietArsenalMuseum/TankCannon/pages/04_152mmM409HEATRound.htm

Edited May 23, 2016 by Results45

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

--- snip ---

 

Found it: https://archive.org/stream/milmanual-tm-43-0001-28-army-ammunition-data-sheets/tm_43-0001-28_army_ammunition_data_sheets#page/n171/mode/2up

 

Just a search on "M409 HEAT-T-MP" would have brought that up... :)

 

Sekrit Dokument not so secret....

 

 

There's some other good stuff in there too.

[Results45 2,200]

Yeah, general dimensions & background could be interesting......

 

Honestly though, the Sheridan (355mm) wouldn't be able to pen things any better than the Chieftain (also 355mm) at 1km.

 

The only thing that differentiates them would be penetration at closer ranges (100-600m) where the Chieftain would pen up to 400mm whereas the Sheridan would pen better at farther ranges due to it's consistent 355mm no matter the range.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Results45

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

Yeah, general dimensions & background could be interesting......

 

Honestly though, the Sheridan (355mm) wouldn't be able to pen things any better than the Chieftain (also 355mm) at 1km.

 

The only thing that differentiates them would be penetration at closer ranges (100-600m) where the Chieftain would pen better with up to 400mm while the Sheridan would pen better at farther ranges due to it's consistent 355mm no matter the range.

 

 

My hypothesis for the mediocre penetration is that, as described, it is a HEAT-T-MP.... Multi-Purpose....

 

 

It's probably one of those things that was designed to be a go-between of the HE and HEAT rounds, and they ended up with something that, surprise surprise, excelled at neither.

[Urho3000 341]

Well, both the hydropneumatic suspension (allows for additional depression) and 120mm gun from the Kpz-70 did make it over to the Leopard 2 so......whatever 120mm ammo Gaijin wants to base penetration values on.

 

http://echo501.tripod.com/Military/120ammo.htm

 

Approximate 120mm gun penetration values:

• Chinese Type 89 (or experimental gun) HEAT/APFSDS --- 450mm @ 2km, ~500mm @ 1km, ~545mm @ 100m @ 0 degrees
• German DM-13 APFSDS --- 380mm @ 2km, ~430mm @ 1km, ~475mm @ 100m @ 0 degrees
• German DM-43 APFSDS --- 450mm @ 1km, ~495mm @ 100m @ 0 degrees
• US T32 & T43 (M103 protopype) HVAP/APBC --- 381mm @ 1km, ~426mm @ 100m @ 0 degrees
• British L11A5 L-15 APDS --- 305mm @ 2km, ~355mm @ 1km, ~400mm @ 100m @ 0 degrees
• British L11A5 L-23/US XM-827 APFSDS --- 450mm @ 2km, ~500mm @ 1km, ~545mm @ 100m @ 0 degrees

 

note: the German DM-13 & DM-43 rounds could be added in-game with the Leopard 1A6 and Kpz-70

Where did you find these?

[Urho3000 341]

My hypothesis for the mediocre penetration is that, as described, it is a HEAT-T-MP.... Multi-Purpose....

 

 

It's probably one of those things that was designed to be a go-between of the HE and HEAT rounds, and they ended up with something that, surprise surprise, excelled at neither.

The DM12s are called "... MP" too and they pen ~500mm and ~700mm respectively. It's just a naming convention. Usually rounds that are able to defeat armor are very ineffective against infantry and lightly armored vehicles. HEAT rounds were very good against armor and still effective against infantry, not as good as HE but better than nothing.

[Results45 2,200]

Where did you find these?

 

I didn't really find any "official document" on those values -- they're just estimates based on the statement: ".....estimated to penetrate 670 mm (26 in) of steel armor [at point-blank], which decreases to 620 mm (24 in) at 1,000 m (1,100 yd), and to 570 mm (22 in) at 2,000 m (2,200 yd). At 4,000 m (4,400 yd), it is believed to still be able to penetrate 460 mm (18 in) of steel armor.^[4]"

 

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M829

Edited May 23, 2016 by Results45

[Urho3000 341]

I didn't really find any "official document" on those values -- they're just estimates based on the statement: ".....estimated to penetrate 670 mm (26 in) of steel armor [at point-blank], which decreases to 620 mm (24 in) at 1,000 m (1,100 yd), and to 570 mm (22 in) at 2,000 m (2,200 yd). At 4,000 m (4,400 yd), it is believed to still be able to penetrate 460 mm (18 in) of steel armor.^[4]"

 

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M829

Where's the relation to the DM13? How did you estimate?

[Results45 2,200]

Where's the relation to the DM13? How did you estimate?

 

Since the majority of the ammo types in that list were APFSDS, I figured that all of them would have similar rates/proportions of decreasing penetration at at range (varying by +/- 30mm of course).

[Urho3000 341]

Since the majority of the ammo types in that list were APFSDS, I figured that all of them would have similar rates/proportions of decreasing penetration at at range (varying by +/- 30mm of course).

That definitely wrong. DM13 loses way more speed per distance than M829A1, because it's lighter and has a way higher drag.

 

M829A1:

v_0 = 1575 m/s

diameter_pen = 22 mm

mass = 4.88 kg

 

DM13:

v_0 = 1650 m/s

diameter_pen = 38 mm

mass = 4.44 kg

 

On top of that the DM13's tip has a bad drag coefficient. The idea behind the shape was higher penetration at oblique angles, not good aerodynamics.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Urho3000

[Ruslan_DR 686]

I saw that link from the museum, too. Usually I'd accept that as a source, but 350mm for a 152mm HEAT shell from 1969 does simply sound too bad to be true.

 

keep in mind this is HEAT, not HEATFS.

[Urho3000 341]

keep in mind this is HEAT, not HEATFS.

Good point.