ground vehicles Wiesel AWC

[swpixy 1,220]

Hello!

Seeing as noone appears to have done it yet,i decided to suggest this-The German Wiesel Armored Weapons Carrier,direct successor to the KraKa (Kraftkarren) ATV in the role of universal light weapons carrier.

 

 

So what is the Wiesel?

Basically,a modern day Tankette that started its life in the mid-70s as a project carried out by Porsche to create a lightly armored vehicle that could carry a Rh.202 20mm autocannon,a TOW launcher or a 120mm Mortar while being airdroppable and light enough to transport with a CH-53 Transport Helicopter.The final result entered service in 1989,and a total of 345 were ordered (MK20 and TOW combined).The Wiesel 1 was tested with various other weaponsystems aswell,such as Rheinmetalls RMK-30 recoilless 30mm revolvercannon,a .50cal M2 in a different turret,a 60mm Mortar,HOT (in up to two launchers simultaneously) and MILAN.On basis of the Wiesel 1,a extended,larger version with 5 roadwheels was developed as Wiesel 2,which was then used as Ambulance,Mortar carrier,mobile command post and even light anti aircraft system (Ocelot,consisting of a radar carrier and a second Wiesel 2 carrying 4 Stinger launchers).

 

Stats

 

Moblity,Dimensions and Armor

Emtpy weight without weapon system mounted: 1960Kg

Combat weight:                                                   2500-3000Kg

Lenght:                                                               3310mm (without armament),3545 with Rh.202

Width:                                                                 1820mm

Height:                                                                1820mm (Rh.202),1870mm (TOW-2)

Clearance:                                                          c.a. 300mm,depending on load

Tank volume:                                                       80L (Diesel)

Operational range:                                              200-250km

Speed:                                                                 80 Kph

Armor:                                                                  Protection against splinter and 7.62mm non-AP ammunition (In other words-Basically nonexistant)

Armor material:                                                    RHA

Suspension:                                                         4 roadwheels+ 1Return roller,Torsion bar suspension

Brakes:                                                                 2-Circuit hydraulic brake

Fording capability:                                                up to 500mm

Climbing ability:                                                     60% slope

 

Engine

5-Cylinder 4-Stroke Turbodiesel (Made by VW)

Power:                               64KW (87hp)/4500RPM,195Nm/1900RPM

Compression:                    19:1

Displacement                     2461cm³

Cooling                              Water

Bore/Stroke                       81mm/95.5mm

 

Transmission

Hydromechanic transmission type 3HP-22

Gears                3 Forward,1 Reverse

 

Weapons

Rheinmetall Rh.202

Caliber: 20x139mm

Weight:                                                                                  64 Kg (Without DGZ),83 Kg with DGZ (Doppelgurtzuführer,can switch between 2 separate loads

                                                                                              stored in the boxes left and right of the Weapon

Weight Barrel:                                                                        28 Kg

Lenght (overall):                                                                    2612mm

Width:                                                                                    278mm

Height:                                                                                   317mm

Barrel Lenght:                                                                       2002mm

Barrel Lenght (Rifling):                                                         1700mm

Amount of Grooves:                                                             15,6° angle

Twist                                                                                     Righthand

Operating type:                                                                    Open Bolt,Gas operated

Rate of Fire:                                                                         max 1100 RPM (In case of the Wiesel,operated in single-shot mode or fired in very short bursts)

Recoil force:                                                                         7.5 kN

Ammunition:                                                                         HEI DM 51A2,DM 81A1,DM 101              1055m/s

                                                                                            AP-T DM 43                                              1100m/s       Penetration 40mm/1000m

                                                                                            APDS DM 63                                            1150m/s       Penetration 44mm/1000m

                                                                                            Practice DM 48A1,DM 98A1                    1045m/s

                                                                                            Practice DM 88A1                                    1040m/s

                                                                                            160 Rounds ready to use,standard load 100 HE and 60 AP.240 Round reserve stored in the vehicle (400 Rounds total)

Traverse                                                                              55° Left and Right

Elevation/Depression                                                           +45° to -10°

 

 

TOW

Versions:                                                 ITOW (BGM-71C) or TOW-2 (BGM-71D)

Type:                                                       SACLOS

Speed:                                                     278m/s

Penetration:                                             ~630mm for ITOW,~800-900mm for TOW-2

Warhead weight:                                      5.9 Kg

Amount carried:                                       7 (6 Inside,1 Outside strapped to the rear of the vehicle)

Traverse:                                                 45° Left and Right

Elevation/Depression                               10°/-10°

Can use either BGM-71C or BGM-71D.

Wiesel/TOW can mount a MG-3 next to the TOW launcher.

 

Optics (Wiesel MK.20)

Daylight:                         PERI Z-16,2x-6x Magnification

Nighttime:                       PERI Z-59 (had to be mounted and dismounted for use,stored inside the vehicle when disused)

                       

Implementation and Gameplay

This vehicle is extremely small and agile,but also extremely vulnerable incoming fire.The Rh.202-armed variant has a crew of only 2 (Driver and Commander/Gunner),the TOW-armed variant has a crew of 3-which basically means that it will often be onehit by even machinegun fire (a .50cal will cut through it like a hot knife through butter even at long range,and a 7.62mm machinegun with AP will most likely still penetrate at extremely short ranges.The amount of ammunition is extremely limited,so emphasis has to be put on making every shot count,regardless of which weapon is used.Basically,this vehicle relies on its small size and extreme mobility to get into capture zones and unexpected positions,and lay ambushes for enemy vehicles or distract them from bigger threats.In terms of balancing,the TOW-armed version would probably end up at 8.0-8.3 simply due to the TOW being extremely powerful (albeit in limited supply).

The Battlerating of the Rh-202 equipped version would largely depend on how it is implemented.If given multiple respawns (as done with vehicles that do not have a techtree,like the M26 "Ariete" or the Black Prince back when it was implented) and given low spawn cost,it could serve well as a "spam unit" that can be used to do reconnaissance and killing light armor before bringing heavier vehicles,and the gun would be well capable of frontally taking out pretty much any light armor in short order.With such a implementation,a relatively high (7.0-8.0) BR would be probably be justified,if implemented as a actual lighttank it would have to end up lower in order to be effective.The prototype versions with HOT,MILAN and RMK-30 would fall somewhere in between those,but there is not particulary much information on these vehicles to be found.

This vehicle would be for people that like using ambush tactics, and dont mind having limited ammunition and no armor in exchange for a big boomstick-Type 60-players should feel right at home with either of these two.The Rh.202,even with the limitations imposed by the platform its mounted on,can quickly destroy most vehicles from the sides and rear,while the TOW would cause catastrophic damage in case of a Center-of-Mass penetration on the enemy vehicle.

As for placement in techtree-this would be suitable for the mid-to top end of a german Light AFV/Weapons Carrier tree,along with vehicles like the KraKa and Sd.Kfz 221/222.

 

Pictures

Spoiler

(Really puts the size into perspective,doesnt it?)

RMK-30

Different version of the RMK-30

HOT

Alternatetive version:

Prototype

Wiesel/TOW being unloaded from a CH-53

Sources:

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product943.html

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiesel_(militärisches_Kettenfahrzeug)

http://www.military-today.com/apc/wiesel_1.htm

https://www.amazon.de/Bundeswehr-Fahrzeuge-im-Bild-Ralf-Weinreich/dp/361303283X

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by swpixy
Updated ammunition count.

[blakeob 8,086]

Open for discussion. 

[swpixy 1,220]

1 minute ago, blakeob said:

Open for discussion. 

Thanks!

[dotEXCEL 5,969]

oh yes +1 30mm or hot please, gib

Edited February 18, 2017 by dotEXCEL

[Rohrkrepiererer 1,393]

The Marder is basically the same thing, but bigger, so more easily to spot, so I have to decline in favour of the Marder.

[Retry 7,363]

Called it...

 

There's been an undeniable influx of modern vehicles ever since the Type 87 was announced.

[Rohrkrepiererer 1,393]

13 minutes ago, Retry said:

Called it...

 

There's been an undeniable influx of modern vehicles ever since the Type 87 was announced.

 

Is that bad in your opinion?

We need more vehicles, to decompress the game anyways,so...

 

Edited February 18, 2017 by Rohrkrepiererer

[dotEXCEL 5,969]

7 minutes ago, Rohrkrepiererer said:

 

Is that bad in your opinion?

We need more vehicles, to decompress the game anyways,so...

 

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder965/500x/44742965.jpg

[Rohrkrepiererer 1,393]

26 minutes ago, dotEXCEL said:

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder965/500x/44742965.jpg

 

I respect Putin very much, even though he basically invaded the Ukraine, which I strongly denounce. However, since he first took over, economy has recovered by 700%, so I guess he's a good business man?
 

[Retry 7,363]

42 minutes ago, Rohrkrepiererer said:

 

Is that bad in your opinion?

We need more vehicles, to decompress the game anyways,so...

 

And precisely how will you decompress the game with Panzer IIC Model 1985 and Jaguar 2 Lite?

Edited February 19, 2017 by Retry

[Rohrkrepiererer 1,393]

4 minutes ago, Retry said:

And precisely how will you decompress the game with Panzer IIC Model 1985 and Jaguar 2 Lite?

 

You open up the BR to 9.0 and decrease BR spread to 0.7

[Retry 7,363]

7 minutes ago, Rohrkrepiererer said:

 

You open up the BR to 9.0 and decrease BR spread to 0.7

And again, Wiesel AWC doesn't help to open up that possibility.

[Rohrkrepiererer 1,393]

2 possibilities: 1) Expand Top Tier into late Cold War

                       2) Expand Low Tier into pre WW2 and WW1 Era

Now guess what Gaijin is going to choose.

[Retry 7,363]

Just now, Rohrkrepiererer said:

2 possibilities: 1) Expand Top Tier into late Cold War

                       2) Expand Low Tier into pre WW2 and WW1 Era

Now guess what Gaijin is going to choose.

False Dilemma.

Pre-WWII and later Cold War equipment are already in-game.

 

Adding newer equipment is not necessary to spread out the BRs.  However, adding newer equipment without spreading out the BRs will only result in further compression.

[Rohrkrepiererer 1,393]

6 minutes ago, Retry said:

False Dilemma.

Pre-WWII and later Cold War equipment are already in-game.

 

Adding newer equipment is not necessary to spread out the BRs.  However, adding newer equipment without spreading out the BRs will only result in further compression.

 

It is about the amount of vehicles and queue times, not the equipment. Sure, if you only add Top Tier vehicles, then you are going to compress more. If you add more vehicles, spread out over the whole range of technology, then you can start to decompress by increasing the BR system and by decreasing BR spread. HOWEVER, you need massive amounts of additional players to support even the 0.7 BR range for example. And thats the dilemma we're in...

Edited February 19, 2017 by Rohrkrepiererer

[Retry 7,363]

Just now, Rohrkrepiererer said:

 

It is about the amount of vehicles, not the equipment.

You're barking up the wrong tree then: You'll need WWII production variants for that.

Neither the AutoWiesel nor the TOWiesel actually plug any gaps that can then be used to decompress the trees.

[Rohrkrepiererer 1,393]

Just now, Retry said:

You're barking up the wrong tree then: You'll need WWII production variants for that.

Neither the AutoWiesel nor the TOWiesel actually plug any gaps that can then be used to decompress the trees.

 

Alright, I think you misunderstood me then. I was talking about more vehicles, be it modern or WW2, being added. The Wiesel is not the best option anyways. I would go for the Marder with the MILAN. 

But I understand where you are coming from with your opinion.

[dotEXCEL 5,969]

with that guy, you cant argue. Retry just say it. you are a WW2 tanks fanboy and you hate Post-War tanks.

PS: i talked to CokeSpray. such vehielces are NO problem due their low survivability. bacially everything what does not use composite is allowed. deal with that.

Edited February 19, 2017 by dotEXCEL

[Rohrkrepiererer 1,393]

2 hours ago, dotEXCEL said:

with that guy, you cant argue. Retry just say it. you are a WW2 tanks fanboy and you hate Post-War tanks.

PS: i talked to CokeSpray. such vehielces are NO problem due their low survivability. bacially everything what does not use composite is allowed. deal with that.

 

Also it would be affected by the new hull break mechanic, so it is basically a one shot kill...

[swpixy 1,220]

2 hours ago, Rohrkrepiererer said:

 

Also it would be affected by the new hull break mechanic, so it is basically a one shot kill...

Even without that mechanic,it would be almost guaranteed to get oneshotted by anything that gets through-with 2,at most 3 people crammed into a vehicle slightly bigger than a smart car (granted-a smart car with one hell of a boomstick attached to it) ,you are basically guaranteed to knock out enough of the crew,unless you fire something relatively low caliber (.50 cal) and hit the engine block or in a way that the round goes between or past the crew.

[FritzWendel 35]

Yes please! Both versions (TOW + 20mm)!

[dotEXCEL 5,969]

1 hour ago, FritzWendel said:

Yes please! Both versions (TOW + 20mm)!

forget the 20mm i want the 30mm

 

[Retry 7,363]

6 hours ago, dotEXCEL said:

with that guy, you cant argue. Retry just say it. you are a WW2 tanks fanboy and you hate Post-War tanks.

I was fully for the introduction of the Gepard, Vulcan, Falcon SPAAGs, still support several post-war vehicles like a Sea Vixen variant, the FJ Furies and the German lights, and have personally suggested several post-war vehicles to be implemented such as the BTR-152 w/ 2 or 4 14.5mm MGs, a BRDM-2, PACT ZU-23-2 Truck technicals, the Israeli TCM-20 on vehicle platforms, the Dark Shark, and an IL-40P (as well as a way to implement a Swedish micro-tree including the S-Tank, which I swear I posted but seems to have disappeared off the face of this forum somehow).

 

A WW2 vehicle fanboy I might be, but a post-war hater I most certainly am not.  You can park your nonsensical libel at the door.

 

We shouldn't implement things on a whim just because it exists and may not break the game meta.

 

I'm sure the BMD-4, introduced in 2004, wouldn't break the top tier meta, nor would the '84 Humvee.  The 2005 2S25 would "only" be a swift glass cannon, as would the M8 Buford (both 105mm and 120mm).  Neither the M1128 nor the Japanese MCV nor the Centauro really have any fancier tech that would be more powerful than current top-tier weapons.

 

But their competitiveness is not what is in question.

 

Even Wargame: Red Dragon had its limits.  This game is still themed and is not meant to encompass all of human history, especially when fighters are still stuck in Korean War limbo and will be for the foreseeable future.  These vehicles have to fight with and against two entirely different classes of vehicles: Boats and Aircraft.  Currently, a 1980s Wiesel tankette with a 900mm penetrating ATGM and a pretty good missile velocity would be supported by Leopard 1A1s (Not even A5s...) with air cover being provided by Canadairs...

 

The game is not broken by this matchup, certainly.  The Pre-WWII to Mid-Cold War theme is.  And unlike the Type 87 or Type 74, it's simply not necessary for filling any gaps or for balance, and doesn't even have any trees that they could obviously fit in. (And even then, there was the Type 61 SPAAG proto they could have gone with.)

 

If Germany really needs or wants a cold-war 20 mill platform, they have the Spahpanzer Luchs or the SPz 11-2 Kurz.  If they really need yet another ATGM, we still haven't exhausted the Raketenjagdpanzers.  Earlier vehicles fulfill the exact same role in-game without going further in-time away from the theme and without nearly as strong for a push to push foward the tank time-frame yet again to encompass something like an Abrams meta.

 

I'm sure you'd be perfectly fine with an M1 Abrams meta or even an M1A2 Abrams meta, as well as the other examples like the Sprut, BMD-4, and MCV.

But you're in the minority.

[swpixy 1,220]

13 minutes ago, Retry said:

I was fully for the introduction of the Gepard, Vulcan, Falcon SPAAGs, still support several post-war vehicles like a Sea Vixen variant, the FJ Furies and the German lights, and have personally suggested several post-war vehicles to be implemented such as the BTR-152 w/ 2 or 4 14.5mm MGs, a BRDM-2, PACT ZU-23-2 Truck technicals, the Israeli TCM-20 on vehicle platforms, the Dark Shark, and an IL-40P (as well as a way to implement a Swedish micro-tree including the S-Tank, which I swear I posted but seems to have disappeared off the face of this forum somehow).

 

A WW2 vehicle fanboy I might be, but a post-war hater I most certainly am not.  You can park your nonsensical libel at the door.

 

We shouldn't implement things on a whim just because it exists and may not break the game meta.

 

I'm sure the BMD-4, introduced in 2004, wouldn't break the top tier meta, nor would the '84 Humvee.  The 2005 2S25 would "only" be a swift glass cannon, as would the M8 Buford (both 105mm and 120mm).  Neither the M1128 nor the Japanese MCV nor the Centauro really have any fancier tech that would be more powerful than current top-tier weapons.

 

But their competitiveness is not what is in question.

 

Even Wargame: Red Dragon had its limits.  This game is still themed and is not meant to encompass all of human history, especially when fighters are still stuck in Korean War limbo and will be for the foreseeable future.  These vehicles have to fight with and against two entirely different classes of vehicles: Boats and Aircraft.  Currently, a 1980s Wiesel tankette with a 900mm penetrating ATGM and a pretty good missile velocity would be supported by Leopard 1A1s (Not even A5s...) with air cover being provided by Canadairs...

 

The game is not broken by this matchup, certainly.  The Pre-WWII to Mid-Cold War theme is.  And unlike the Type 87 or Type 74, it's simply not necessary for filling any gaps or for balance, and doesn't even have any trees that they could obviously fit in. (And even then, there was the Type 61 SPAAG proto they could have gone with.)

 

If Germany really needs or wants a cold-war 20 mill platform, they have the Spahpanzer Luchs or the SPz 11-2 Kurz.  If they really need yet another ATGM, we still haven't exhausted the Raketenjagdpanzers.  Earlier vehicles fulfill the exact same role in-game without going further in-time away from the theme and without nearly as strong for a push to push foward the tank time-frame yet again to encompass something like an Abrams meta.

 

I'm sure you'd be perfectly fine with an M1 Abrams meta or even an M1A2 Abrams meta, as well as the other examples like the Sprut, BMD-4, and MCV.

But you're in the minority.

I see what you are getting at.

Heres the thing though-this vehicle DOES actually have a place and need.Aside from Britain,every other nation has a light tank tree,and atleast one vehicle with similar concept in it.You have the ASU-57 for the russians,the M56 Scorpion for the US and the Type 60 for the Japanese.Germany and Britain could really use counterparts-Britain has lots of wheeled vehicles (Fox,Ferret/Swingfire,Saladin,AEC) plus various variants of the FV101 that could be used,Germany is a bit more complicated.Sure,if you use vehicles like the various Marder derivates,Hs.30 and SPz.11-2,you can built a IFV line,but when it comes to actual light tanks and other light AFVs,theres not actually that much for higher tiers (especially now that the RU-251 becomes a premium).And thats where the Wiesel could come in-the MK20 would be suitable for mid-tier with appropriate mechanics for such a class,and the TOW could mark the top end.Yes,not everyone would like these vehicles (especially since they require precision and tactics to work properly,due to limited ammunition and low survivability),but atleast its something (and definitely WAY better than putting in vehicles that never got past the paper or would not even work*cough* Tiger II 105 *cough* Panther II 8.8).Besides,the theme is already broken as is,especially around mid tier-you have a PT-76 running around fighting Tigers and a M56 Scorpion blowing up Kingtigers,nevermind the Maus running around in 8.3 matches...Mind you,if the T-64 comes (and it will eventually,it has been confirmed after all),the whole timeline for every other nation will probably jump up to mid-late 80s anyway.

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

2 minutes ago, swpixy said:

Mind you,if the T-64 comes (and it will eventually,it has been confirmed after all)

The T-64 has been given at best a maybe, no solid confirmation has ever come out for it.