Tier VII - VIII Aviation Discussion

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,349]

This thread started as a hopeful discussion for tier 7, firstly on the idea that it would start off as a tier for late 3rd generation jets such as the MiG-23MLD, Tornado ADV, F-4EJ Kai and whatnot then progressively into the more modern jets such as the teen series, MiG-29, Su-27, Gripen, Mirage 2000 etc, but as it turned out differently I'm spoilering the old OP down below. 

 

Here you can discuss current tier 7 jets, as well as future third and fourth generation additions to tier 7 without limits. 

 

Spoiler

Hi!

 

I'm not sure if this is the best place to discuss this but here we go. Before I start explaining, I want to quickly note that I'd like to see tier 7 jets at some point in time . We're still missing the century jets and a handful of aircraft to place at tier 6.

 

 

These are also other things to consider:

 

1- This question from the 23rd of December, 2019

 

Spoiler

 

2- The F-4EJ KAI is confirmed, an F-4EJ fitted with AAM-3 missiles which were developed from the AIM-9L all-aspect missiles and are better, and it will have an ECM pod

 

Spoiler

 

 

TIER 7 CONFIRMED (20/4/2021)

 

So let's start... (if you're going to discuss please read carefully )

 

1- As you all know, we finally have flares. 1.97 "Viking Fury" has given us a rough insight (if not good) on how missile and flare combat works. As it turns out, it's not as skilless as previously thought of before.

 

Even with flares, you still need skill. Situational awareness is an important skill in jets. You have to keep watching out for missiles in order to pop out your flares. You can't just be careless. You also have to turn off your afterburner(s) in time in order for flares to work, and even though that sounds like it's easily done, you have to be very quick at reacting in order to do it since jet combat is quite swift. 

 

At the same time, flares can also render a fired missile useless if done correctly. 

 

Keeping both cases in mind, they lead us to one thing in the end: the good old fashioned gun-game. Guns are still quite important, and even if you had ridiculous missiles with something like a track rate of 30 deg/s and high G overload, you would still need a gun. Why? Because after you run out of those missiles, you're going to need something else to use in order to kill. This is especially something important to consider with planes like the F-104S CI, an Italian F-104S with AIM-7E and AIM-9L missiles and no gun. You could either get 1-4 kills because of their capabilities, or miss all of them because of countermeasures. You would NEED a gun no matter what. You wouldn't go around killing everything in site consistently. 

 

It seems that this is not the boring "fire your missile and forget everything else" gameplay we perceived in our minds before. 

 

 

2- Tier 7 could turn out to be quite useful to some nations. For example at tier 6, the only Mirages France could have are the IIC and E. The Mirage F.1 had Magic 2 missiles and the Mirage 2000 is simply too much for tier 6. Italy's next jet for tier 6 would only be the F-104G, they had no other potential candidates. At tier 7 they would have the F-104S CI, F-104S CB, F-104S-ASA, the Tornado and the A-11A Ghibli. Japan would also cap at the F-4EJ KAI, the Mitsubishi F-1 and the F-104J Eiko next. They have the Mitsubishi F-2A and other US aircraft modified for Japan to be added.

 

3- Missiles are not just "release and forget". Not every missile has the same sensitivity to flares as some others. You would need to perform certain maneuvers alongside releasing flares. This would require knowledge, skill, situational awareness and timing. It wouldn't be skilless gameplay.

 

 

Realizing this has lowkey given me some hype. I'm a big fan of MiGs, and I'd really like to see the MiG-29 at some point in time, along with other planes such as the F-14A, MiG-25P, especially the Mirage F.1 and  F-16A because my country's air force has them

 

I have some illustrations (don't pay attention to the BRs, they're random picks) :  Updated some of the old stat cards and made new ones

 

Old collection:

 

 

Spoiler

 

New collection:

 

Spoiler

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by EpicBlitzkrieg87

[BritishDelivery 37]

He created a mess while asking for mach 2 while some didn't even get decent mach 1  and now that there is even more unbalance this troll is asking for even more modern jets while some nation are heavelly lacking... This guy... 

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,349]

Just now, BritishDelivery said:

He created a mess while asking for mach 2 while some didn't even get decent mach 1  and now that there is even more unbalance this troll is asking for even more modern jets while some nation are heavelly lacking... This guy... 

 

Rude and hostile behavior. Anyway, read this v since I'm sure you didn't bother. 

 

32 minutes ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

Before I start explaining, I want to quickly note that I'd like to see tier 7 jets at some point in time. We're still missing the century jets and a handful of aircraft to place at tier 6.

 

Edited March 24, 2020 by EpicBlitzkrieg87

[spacesoldier117 876]

I think your prediction is quite off for the 104S. Unfortunately, as you said, the F104S isn't really a pure jet fighter but an interceptor/ground pounder. The missiles became unreliable due to the flares and while it can mount a vulcan, it would be quite useless due to the turn capacity of this jet.

There are also the ASA and the ASA-M with the latter being the latest modification.

With the ASA you could also mount the Selenia Aspide. This missile is more effective and precise than a normal Sparrow but still, I think the 104 could compete only at 10.3 if not lower due to its poor manoeuvrability.

[Bringer_Of_War 901]

10 minutes ago, BritishDelivery said:

He created a mess while asking for mach 2 while some didn't even get decent mach 1  and now that there is even more unbalance this troll is asking for even more modern jets while some nation are heavelly lacking... This guy... 

I personally was very against tier VI but I found the implementation legitimately fun 

( in the long run , not at the beginning ) 

So I am absolutely for Tier 7 

 

I have made my own suggestion for 7th rank aircraft for China , just to give an idea to people of what the chinese TT holds for the future of WT and it is a lot of nice vehicles. 

 

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,349]

1 hour ago, spacesoldier117 said:

I think your prediction is quite off for the 104S. Unfortunately, as you said, the F104S isn't really a pure jet fighter but an interceptor/ground pounder. The missiles became unreliable due to the flares and while it can mount a vulcan, it would be quite useless due to the turn capacity of this jet.

There are also the ASA and the ASA-M with the latter being the latest modification.

With the ASA you could also mount the Selenia Aspide. This missile is more effective and precise than a normal Sparrow but still, I think the 104 could compete only at 10.3 if not lower due to its poor manoeuvrability.

 

Oh my bad. The F-104S is just confusing imo. Thanks o7

 

1 hour ago, _ArchangelAzrael said:

I personally was very against tier VI but I found the implementation legitimately fun 

( in the long run , not at the beginning ) 

So I am absolutely for Tier 7 

 

I tried getting those who argued against that addition to understand. On the surface it looked like a very bad idea, however if you dove deeper into it back then you (players in general) would have realized it wasn't so bad sooner. 

Edited March 24, 2020 by Smin1080p
Topic cleaned up and some off topic / flame posts removed

[Tidsloop 271]

A couple more years of aviation development, plus adding more maps and regular enduring confrontation, with a good filled out rank supersonic era of jets is gonna be so cool.

 

Enduring confrontation battles with top jets etc.

 

Also, bring EC at least every weekend for realistic air, thank you!

 

And max 130k-200k RP for high ranks please, 390k is too much even with premium imo. It´s not like it´s not a lot to research already.

+ wishlist https://steamcommunity.com/app/236390/discussions/0/2646361245002828638/ 

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2020 by Tidsloop

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,349]

4 minutes ago, Tidsloop said:

A couple more years of aviation development, plus adding more maps and regular enduring confrontation, with a good filled out rank supersonic era of jets is gonna be so cool.

 

 

Yes! Planes like the ones I mentioned in addition to the Mirage F.1 and maybe even the Rafale would be awesome, given the points I used to argue for the possibility of tier 7 

[TyphoonCro 6,833]

Well, I think that CCCP/RUS and US will (IMO) be first to break GenIV barrier

And by that time if SARH missile are not introduced then we likely may see what I would call "castrated" jets (lacking some armament options and system operations)

 

 

I made this statcard recently of early Block F-16A (Block 1/5/10 but not 15, simply for reason that Block 15 received possibility of having more advanced systems and larger horizontal stabilizers)

According to SAC, F-16A Blocks 1/5/10 could have carried AIM-9J since by the time of introduction, AIM-9L was not yet used (I'm not sure)

So in beginning we may end up with what essentially may be better climbing, turning and accelerating F-4E

 

As far as Soviets go, first production series of MiG-29, the MiG-29A seems like nice choice since it would be somewhat comparable to F-16A though MiG-29A would have possibility of carrying SARH missiles, the R73. As I said above it could be possible to "castrate" it, to limit it to R60 (if F-16A gets choice of AIM-9L, then MiG-29A can get R60M)

Edited March 24, 2020 by TyphoonCro

[Smin1080p 60,444]

2 hours ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

 

2- The F-4EJ KAI is confirmed, an F-4EJ fitted with AAM-3 missiles which were developed from the AIM-9L all-aspect missiles and are better, and it will have an ECM pod

 

Just to be super clear for everyone on this. F-4EJ KAI is not confirmed for certain. DMM simply announced their intention to begin research and information gathering for our consideration.

 

That does not mean its confirmed, in development or will 100% come. 

[TyphoonCro 6,833]

3 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

 

Just to be super clear for everyone on this. F-4EJ KAI is not confirmed for certain. DMM simply announced their intention to begin research and information gathering for our consideration.

 

That does not mean its confirmed, in development or will 100% come. 

 

Would it be correct that at some point in future, there are chances for it to appear?

[Smin1080p 60,444]

Just now, TyphoonCro said:

 

Would it be correct that at some point in future, there are chances for it to appear?

 

Its far too early to say at this point. Our current plans and goals involve the development of Rank VI aviation for all nations. 

[TyphoonCro 6,833]

1 minute ago, Smin1080p said:

 

Its far too early to say at this point. Our current plans and goals involve the development of Rank VI aviation for all nations. 

 

Lets hope we see more jets for T6 before moving on to Generation IV

[Aerobane 4,140]

I don't care if they add these vehicles; HOWEVER. If they do decide to add them I ask only one little thing.

Do not add a single one until you have taken the time to develop at least one competitive variant for every single nation in the game. Don't just give the USA an F16 while Italy only has an F104. Don't add a mig 29 while other nations still only have older planes.

 

If it means waiting 6 months longer so be it, but the unequal implementation of important features is just so frustrating and it breaks mixed modes like tank RB completely.

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,349]

11 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

Just to be super clear for everyone on this. F-4EJ KAI is not confirmed for certain. DMM simply announced their intention to begin research and information gathering for our consideration.

 

That does not mean its confirmed, in development or will 100% come. 

 

Oh thanks. That's interesting. 

[FouManchou 2,463]

37 minutes ago, Aerobane said:

Do not add a single one until you have taken the time to develop at least one competitive variant for every single nation in the game. Don't just give the USA an F16 while Italy only has an F104. Don't add a mig 29 while other nations still only have older planes.

I don't see what you mean. An F-22 and a G.91YS both have an engine, a gun, a wing, and missiles, ergo they are perfectly fair to pit against each other. 

[Stavroforos 15,367]

Doesn't this belong in the aviation forum? 

 

I'm sure we'll see everything up to Gen 4 / 4.5 / 4++, not Gen 5 though. 

[blockhaj 3,559]

AJS 37 Viggen


JA 37C Viggen

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,349]

49 minutes ago, Aerobane said:

Do not add a single one until you have taken the time to develop at least one competitive variant for every single nation in the game. Don't just give the USA an F16 while Italy only has an F104. Don't add a mig 29 while other nations still only have older planes.

 

 

Agreed, and we also have to have tier 6 fleshed out first as I said in the OP. 

[Notice_Me_Senpoi 629]

Rafale is unlikely even in a long term perspective. Mirage 2000 is more in line with any of the plane you're displaying there.

Rafale is a plane of the F-22 generation, not F-16. Rafale is a 90s design that was first deployed in 2002 (2005 for the F-22). F-16 and Mig-29 are 70/80s design.

 

Anyway, we got time. Hopefully a LONG time before we move on to 80s planes. A good half of the mechanics those planes needs to function properly in WT aren't there. I'd rather we start by fleshing out existing tree and hopefully achieve some sort of BALANCE between ALL nations before moving to more modern technology.

 

Edited March 24, 2020 by Notice_Me_Senpoi

[Stavroforos 15,367]

7 minutes ago, Notice_Me_Senpoi said:

Rafale is unlikely even in a long term perspective. Mirage 2000 is more in line with any of the plane you're displaying there.

Rafale is a plane of the F-22 generation, not F-16. Rafale is a 90s design that was first deployed in 2002 (2005 for the F-22). F-16 and Mig-29 are 70/80s design.

 

Anyway, we got time. Hopefully a LONG time before we move on to 80s planes. A good half of the mechanics those planes needs to function properly in WT aren't there. I'd rather we start by fleshing out existing tree and hopefully achieve some sort of BALANCE between ALL nations before moving to more modern technology.

 

Rafale is not an F-22 generation fighter. 

[Cedjoe 5,482]

Yeah, the Mirage 2000 is the French 4th gen jet.

7 minutes ago, Stavroforos said:

Rafale is not an F-22 generation fighter. 

It's neither a 4th gen jet, it's in between.

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,349]

9 minutes ago, Cedjoe said:

Yeah, the Mirage 2000 is the French 4th gen jet.

 

 

Guess I'm going to photoshop something soon then :P 

 

@Notice_Me_Senpoi I picked the Rafale because it's the only modern French jet I made a statcard for so far but I'll make one for the Mirage 2000. 

[Cedjoe 5,482]

11 minutes ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

 

 

Guess I'm going to photoshop something soon then :P 

 

@Notice_Me_Senpoi I picked the Rafale because it's the only modern French jet I made a statcard for so far but I'll make one for the Mirage 2000. 

Oh nice 

[Phaere 227]

Since your entire list is Multi-role fighters I'd honestly prefer the SU-30 series aircraft to the Mig-29 which is a short-range air superiority fighter. Mig-29 is pretty much the last mig produced in any serious numbers since that company kinda went to meh after the soviet collapse. But I will admit in terms of modern Russian aircraft I'm a massive SU fan.

 

Also a quick point; the F-2 is much better than the F-16A as airframe is based on Agile Falcon and F-16C/D tech. And it's the first plane in the world to use an AESA radar.

 

30 minutes ago, Notice_Me_Senpoi said:

Rafale is unlikely even in a long term perspective. Mirage 2000 is more in line with any of the plane you're displaying there.

Rafale is a plane of the F-22 generation, not F-16. Rafale is a 90s design that was first deployed in 2002 (2005 for the F-22). F-16 and Mig-29 are 70/80s design.

 

Anyway, we got time. Hopefully a LONG time before we move on to 80s planes. A good half of the mechanics those planes needs to function properly in WT aren't there. I'd rather we start by fleshing out existing tree and hopefully achieve some sort of BALANCE between ALL nations before moving to more modern technology.

 

 

The F-15, F-16, and Su-27 based aircraft were way ahead of their times in terms of capabilities, and in all honesty upgraded variants of said aircraft are still incredibly competitive to more modern aircraft such as the Rafale, Gripen, etc.

I won't say they're better then said aircraft, but throw in the upgraded electronics versions with AESA radar of the F-15 / F-16 / SU-27 or Su-35 and they can fight on a nearly level playing field.