Jump to content

East German & Beutepanzer Subtree


Zombificus
 Share

Please Read Before Voting  

180 members have voted

  1. 1. Would You Like This Subtree?

    • Yes
      77
    • Yes, But With Some Changes
      22
    • Yes, But Only With Split East/West Matchmaking
      25
    • Maybe / I Don't Know
      5
    • No, I Would Like A Different East German Subtree
      0
    • No, I Would Like East German Vehicles To Be Added In A Different Way
      10
    • No, I Don't Want East German Vehicles
      16
    • No, I Don't Want Beutepanzers
      7
    • No (Other Reasons)
      16
    • Other (Please Comment)
      2


There is substantial support for East German tanks in War Thunder, but also some reasonable concerns about their addition. A common argument against DDR vehicles is that if players could pick and choose the best East and West German tanks, it would be difficult to balance and would make the Soviet tree less relevant. A separate matchmaker to avoid this could only happen if there were enough East German vehicles to form self-sufficient lineups, which would mean a huge amount of new additions to the tree. I propose adding these vehicles as a sub-tree like South Africa’s, supported at the lower ranks (because there are no workable DDR lineups below 5.3) by WWII Beutepanzers, which as captured vehicles have a thematic link with the DDR’s imported armour. Depending on the setup, this subtree could be arranged into one new line for the main vehicles with others slotting into existing lines, or into two totally self-contained lines. Each approach has its own advantages and disadvantages, which I’ll go into below. First, however, I’ll go through the vehicles that would form this subtree.

 

WT Live // Ghost2028 「France」のアイデア 12 件 | 戦車, ドイツ軍, 軍

 

Tier I

Spoiler

 

Relocations:

 

15cm sIG 33B Sfl., Pz.35(t) & Pz.38(t) A

 

Because the Pz.35/38(t) family started off as Beutepanzers, being captured Czechoslovakian tanks, they’re a logical fit in our new sub-tree. Moving them from the casemate SPG line, where they’ve never really felt at home, also provides the opportunity to move the Sturmpanzer II to the StuG line. Here I feel it has more in common with the other vehicles in its line, as despite being open-topped it plays more like an assault gun than a typical tank destroyer. These changes are the same across both the one- and two-line versions of this sub-tree.

 

New Additions:

 

Panzerkampfwagen 35-S 739(f) (Pz.35-S(f))

Spoiler

h3.jpg

 

This is the SOMUA S.35 in German service. While it might seem a strange inclusion, the S.35 is historically one of the most important Beutepanzers and saw considerably more action with Germany than it did with France. While the Czech-made Pz.35(t) suffered severe reliability and parts availability issues during Operation Barbarossa and was swiftly retired, the French Pz.35-S served on for almost the entire war. It fought at the Eastern Front, North Africa and Normandy until November 1944, seeing combat in nearly every theatre of the war that Germany was involved in, and unlike most Beutepanzers it did so as a tank, not an SPG / Panzerjager conversion. In German service it saw changes to the cupola (either fitted with German two-piece hatches or replaced with the one from the StuG III), mountings for spare tracks across the UFP, and in at least one case a coat of Zimmeritt anti-magnetic paste. In gameplay terms it’s almost exactly the same as the French version, but from a historical perspective it has just as much right to be in the tree as the Pz.35(t) which is why I’ve included it here.

 

Panzerspähwagen ADGZ (German) / M35 Mittlerer Panzerwagen (Austrian)

Spoiler

Steyr ADGZ and Steyr ADKZ Armored Car - Germany - War Thunder - Official  Forum

 

An Austrian armoured car with a symmetrical hull housing a driver at either end, similar to the later Panhard EBR. The ADGZ was adopted by Germany after the annexation of Austria and served in a second-line policing role rather than in combat, but was still a capable vehicle. Its thin armour and 20mm autocannon make it similar to the Italian AB 41, though its gun may be slightly worse. I’m not sure if the ADGZ would have access to the HVAP belts that make German 20mms so deadly, since its 20mm gun is a unique, shorter model (the L/45 KwK 35, rather than the L/55 German KwK 30/38) that may have had its own ammunition and would most likely penetrate less even with standard German belts. Even 30-40mm of AP with conventional rounds would, however, be more than enough for a Tier I vehicle, particularly one as mobile as this.

 

10,5cm leFH 16 Geschütswagen Mk VI 736(e)

Spoiler

The 10.5cm LeFH 16 auf Geschutzwagen Mk.VI(e) self-propelled artillery gun built on a Vickers Mk.VI light tank chassis

 

One of Major Alfred Becker’s many conversions of obsolete Beutepanzers into more useful SPGs, this is the British Light Tank Mk VI, seen in game as the basis for the Light AA Mk I, transformed into a 105mm self-propelled howitzer. With one of the most extreme gun-to-hull size ratios of any AFV, this is a mobile, well-armed SPH with laughable armour and questionable stability. Vehicles like this are a great example of why it’s worth adding Beutepanzers to the game – would any purpose-built tank be as crazy as this thing? I doubt it.

 

10,5cm leFH 18 (Sf) auf Geschütswagen Lorraine Schlepper (f)

 

Presenting the more sensible side of Beutepanzer design, this is a 105mm SPH conversion of the Lorraine 37L artillery tractor (Lorraine Schlepper in German service). We already have France’s SPG version of the Lorraine in the game, which gives us some idea of how its German cousin would play. Though probably even more sluggish due to its larger gun, the power of that gun is well in excess of the French 47mm. Firing the same shells as StuH 42 but at a substantially lower BR, the 105mm APHE would be enough to dispatch most enemies and the HEAT provides a counter to B1s and Valentines. Having two light SPHs with the same gun might seem redundant, but they serve different purposes: the Mk VI is a meme chariot for having fun in, the Lorraine is the practical howitzer you use when you need something dead.

 

 

Tier II

Spoiler

 

Relocations:

 

Pz.38(t) F

 

I’ve moved this to Tier II to give it scouting like its near-twin, the Swedish Strv m/41 S-II. Since the new sub-tree has the space, I took the opportunity to move this quality Panzer up and give it a new lease of life.

 

Additions:

 

Panzerkampfwagen 38(t) neuer Art

 

Spoiler

Panzer 38(t) N.A. configuration: TankPorn

 

A prototype upgraded Pz.38(t), mainly differing by its welded construction and an improved engine which increased its speed and acceleration. This gives Germany a nice light tank with a decent gun which though on the weaker side at this BR can still be very effective when flanking, which the neuer Art’s improved mobility will help with.

 

Panzerspähwagen P204(f) mit 5cm KwK 38 / KwK 39

 

 

This is the Panhard AMD.35 armoured car in German service, following modifications to fit an enlarged, open-topped turret and a 50mm gun. This is either the short KwK 38 or the long KwK 39, as seen on the Pz.III J and J1 respectively. The Sd.Kfz. 234/2 Puma also carries the KwK 39, which would make the Pz.Sp.Wg. P204(f) with that gun more like a weaker, open-topped tank destroyer version of the Puma. The KwK 38-armed version, meanwhile, would be more unique mainly by being worse in both armour and armament, securing it a lower BR than the Puma. Either one of these is probably more comparable in playstyle to a faster ZiS-30, since their open-turreted setup and thinner armour will make them ill-suited to the Puma’s aggressive light-tank tactics.

 

10,5cm leFH 18/3 Selbstfahrlafette auf Geschütswagen B-2 740(f)

 

 

A 105mm SPH built on the hull of the Char B1, whose various modified versions in German service received the designation Pz.Kfw. B-2(f). This leviathan is a classic Beutepanzer, and while its open-topped nature and thinner gunshield will leave it fairly vulnerable, its sturdy hull still provides a measure of protection, ensuring that most first hits will be survivable by keeping the hull crew alive and preventing a full crew wipe. The 105mm howitzer is also a powerful weapon for these low BRs, since unlike the StuH 42, the B-2 will often face vehicles which it can penetrate frontally with APHE, its most damaging round. Although something of a glass cannon, the power of its gun and the ability to arc shells over cover at range (particularly with high-penetrating HEAT) would certainly give the 10,5cm B-2 a solid gameplay niche.

 

15 cm sFH13/1 (Sf) auf Geschützwagen Lorraine Schlepper (f)

 

 

Converted with the same large superstructure as on the 10,5cm Lorraine, the 15cm variant differs primarily in its larger armament: the 15cm sFH 13/1. This is a 150mm howitzer capable of firing the same rounds as the Sturmpanzer II’s sIG 33B at a noticeably higher velocity. The Lorraine can fire its HE at 377 m/s vs the Sturmpanzer’s 240 m/s: this is an increase of 137 m/s, giving the Lorraine just under 1.5x the velocity and about 2/3 the drop to compensate for. All of this means that although the Lorraine is no tougher or faster than the Sturmpanzer II, it will be able to much more easily execute long-ranged shots or hit specific weakpoints at close range. This will help it take advantage of both its extremely potent HE, which penetrates 61mm, and also its 185mm-penetrating HEAT, with which it will be able to dispatch heavies such as KVs from a safe distance. These vehicles mainly served with the Afrika Korps under Rommel, so would probably have the desert tan of late-war tanks as its default camo, rather than the low-tier "Dunkelgrau" grey of the 105mm version.

 

5cm KwK 38 L/42 auf Infanterie PzKpfw MK II 748(e) "Oswald"

 

Spoiler

V2iJvy1.thumb.jpg.dc62904be0632ae10d7255

 

The "Oswald" was a single Matilda II infantry tank captured by the Germans and converted into a 50mm-armed SPG, in which form it served as a training tank. Although the new superstructure is significantly weaker than the old turret, the gun is much more powerful and the sturdy hull will protect the driver and co-driver even if the gunning crew get strafed or MG-ed to death. I'm not really sure about having it as a tech tree vehicle because of just how unique it is, but it's here for the meantime because there's not really another option.

 

Schützenpanzerwagen PSH

 

Spoiler

2880px-APC-1.jpg

 

This might the most controversial vehicle in this sub-tree, due to its poor armament and armour for the tier in which I’ve placed it, as well as the general dislike of small, fast armoured cars since the R3’s reign of terror. Despite this, I believe it to be a worthwhile vehicle that is both more useful than it might seem and less dangerous than you might fear. SPW-PSH is the East German name for the D-944 PSZH, a Hungarian-built amphibious armoured car equipped with basic IR night vision and armed with a single 14.5mm KPVT heavy machine gun. It’s very similar to Soviet vehicles like the BTR-60, BTR-70 and BRDM-2, which were also operated by East Germany, but is notable in that it was the only vehicle of its class that East Germany operated that did not originate from the Soviet Union. This means that if the USSR ever gets one of these 14.5mm-armed amphibious APCs, the German one will remain unique, since the USSR never operated the D-944 PSZH.

 

As far as gameplay style, it’s a highly mobile scout vehicle with armament on the level of a Tier II AA, with 45mm of penetration using the BTR-152A’s API-T belts and somewhere in the mid-50mm range using the tungsten-core ammunition supplied to vehicles such as this and the BRDM-2. As far as penetration, this makes it almost as good as the R3 T20 FA-HS, but the weapon falls short of the R3’s gun in every other way. The KPVT’s lower fire rate and ammo capacity will make it much less abusable, while the smaller round itself will limit the possible damage. Having experimented with the BTR-152A as an anti-tank vehicle (specifically to gauge how effective the SPW-PSH might be), I found its penetration and damage sufficient for killing Panzers and Shermans, and generally it was the BTR’s large size and poor mobility that held it back from greater success.

Based on this experience, the smaller, faster SPW-PSH should be more than capable of flanking successfully it should be able to defeat most medium tanks, even without the tungsten core round, which it would mainly need to fend off T-34s. On the other hand, the fire rate of the KPVT is much more in line with other machine guns than the insane 997 RPM beam of the R3’s 20mm, it fires from 50-round belts rather than 1000-round ones, and its speed while good is a far sight worse than the insane 115 kph achieved by the R3. It would be more than viable around 2.3 as a stealthy scout which can do a bit of flanking if it’s careful, but would not threaten tanks or planes nearly as much as the faster, better-armed, and higher-elevating R3.

 

I originally wanted this in Tier III to separate it from the WWII Beutepanzers, but I decided that even though it’s much less dangerous than the R3 in many ways, it would probably still get spammed for events if it were eligible for them. I don’t want that to happen, so it has to be Tier II, where it would still get scouting but won't count for challenges.

 

 

Tier III

Spoiler

 

SPz (Schützenpanzer / Schwimmpanzer) PT-76(K1)

 

Spoiler

This photo is of a regular PT-76B; photos of East German PT-76s are hard to come by, and the K1 variant is not one I've been able to find pictures of online

http://i.imgur.com/6aGGXkZ.jpg

 

This is an East German command variant of the PT-76. It’s functionally the same as the Soviet version except for having some extra radios and antennae, which might slightly reduce its max ammo count. Since it’s usually not necessary or safe to bring full ammo, this is not a real downside. Although roughly equivalent to the Soviet PT-76K, this is a specifically East German modification, so out of the several PT-76 variants the DDR operated this is the most fitting for their sub-tree.

 

mKPz (mittlerer Kampfpanzer) T-34-85 (1945)

 

Spoiler

file.php?id=214162&sid=70558d5e4a89ea83c

 

This is the last WWII model of the T-34-85, one of several types received by East Germany in the 1950s. The Soviet “T-34-85” and Chinese “T-34-85 (S-53)” in game appear to represent the T-34-85 Model 1944, which was this variant’s direct predecessor. Apart from visual changes like a larger cupola and square fenders, its major differences are electrically powered turret traverse and smoke canisters. This smoke system consists of two canisters which drop off the back of the hull and generate a smokescreen behind it. This is a one-use system and is limited by the need to reverse into it, but together with the faster traverse speed it makes the Model 1945 noticeably better than the current best Soviet T-34-85. Many T-34-85s in East German service, like most of their tanks, were adorned with extra stowage boxes, which would be an easy way to make the DDR Model 1945 easily identifiable in addition to the usual markings.

The T-34-85 Model 1946 would be a good equivalent for the Soviet tree. This is the same as the Model 1945 but with a slightly improved engine and new roadwheels.

 

sKPz (schwerer Kampfpanzer) IS-II 

 

Spoiler

file.php?id=214159&sid=70558d5e4a89ea83c

 

This is the IS-2 Model 1943 (the original “IS-2” in War Thunder) in East German hands. This was one of their earliest tanks, received when the DDR didn’t have an army, just the paramilitary Kasernierte Volkspolizei (Barracked People’s Police). The East German examples photographed differ slightly from the Soviet one in-game by having a DShK 12.7mm AA MG on the cupola and spare tracks on the lower glacis, which are features of the Model 1944 in-game. Additionally, as a tank delivered in 1953, it would very likely have been issued the postwar BR-471D shell which the IS-2 (1944) used to have.

The devs have stated more than once that they use ammunition as a balancing factor, so it’s not guaranteed that it would have this round, but together with the AA gun and track armour this improved ammo would likely be enough to give it a higher BR than the existing IS-2 Model 1943. As a likely BR 6.0 in this form (a BR held by no other IS-2 in-game), it would be the most unique implementation of this tank, which is an appealing idea. On the other hand, leaving it without that shell would allow it to be 5.7 and therefore help support the lineup there, though this would make it a superior version of the Soviet one at the same BR, which is perhaps not a great idea.

 

Fla-SFL SPW-40A (14.5mm Zwillingsflak auf Flugabwehr-Selbstfahrlafette Schützenpanzerwagen 40A)

 

Spoiler

 

SPW-40 is the East German designation for the Soviet BTR-40 four-wheeled APC, which was replaced in service by the six-wheeled BTR-152. Like its successor, the BTR-40 had an anti-air / anti-infantry turreted version, the BTR/SPW-40A. This bears the same turret with twin-mounted 14.5mm KPVTs as the BTR-152A, although all the East German examples we know of had additional armour on the sides and rear of their turrets. This is not unique to East German vehicles and as far as I can tell can be fitted to any BTR-40A or BTR-152A, it’s just that War Thunder’s Soviet BTR-152A doesn’t mount this optional piece of armour, which could always be introduced as a modification.

In comparison to the BTR-152A, the SPW-40A has a better turning circle due to being a smaller 4-wheeled design rather than a 6-wheeler, but its reduced number of wheels also results in a lowered off-road speed due to less grip and higher ground pressure. Its top speed and power-to-weight ratio are both slightly higher, which will improve its road handling over the BTR-152, but with just 8mm armour at its thickest, its survivability is worse. On the whole, the vehicles are equivalent: mobile, extremely weak, open-topped SPAAGs with the same hard-hitting twin 14.5mms. The BTR-152A is a Tier II, but because SPW-40A would be a necessary vehicle in the low Tier III East German lineup and I prefer to keep the DDR stuff separated from the WWII Beutepanzers, it’s in Tier III with the other East German vehicles instead.

 

SFL (Selbstfahrlafette) SU-85 

 

Spoiler

 

The SU-85 in East German service. It was unchanged except for the fact it was delivered with APCR rounds, which are only available in-game to the tougher SU-85M. This is not a particularly exciting vehicle, but it fills a necessary function: this is the tank destroyer backup for the 5.7 lineup, completing the array of vehicle types needed for a fully rounded lineup. The usefulness of the APCR round is debatable, but it does make the East German version unique, which is in itself valuable.

 

 

Tier IV

Spoiler

 

mKPz (mittlerer Kampfpanzer) T-34-85M (1960) 

 

Spoiler

 

This is the first of two T-34 variants known as T-34-85M, both less advanced and less famous than the definitive T-34-85M Model 1969. The Model 1960, which East Germany operated, featured an improved engine over the previous model (T-34-85 1946), a battery generator to power the turret with the engine off, an infrared spotlight and a driver’s sight. It’s also possible that this model (and the Model 1969) would have access to improved rounds such as HEAT for their 85mm gun, but I have been unable to directly confirm this.

In essence, this T-34-85 would have a great deal of minor improvements over War Thunder’s current best T-34-85s: powered turret traverse, smoke canisters, an improved engine, more battery charge, night vision, and possibly new shells. This would probably push it over the edge into BR 6.0 territory even without new shells, and while its armour is worthless by that point, its good mobility (especially with a new engine) and fast turret traverse will make it a useful flanker, particularly in urban maps. As a support for heavier tanks like the East German IS-2s, it would be a more than adequate part of a Tier IV lineup.

 

SPz (Schützenpanzer) BMP-1A1 Ost 

 

Spoiler

Image result for bmp-1a1 ost

 

The BMP-1A1 Ost was a modification of East German BMP-1s by the reunified German military, bringing them up to NATO safety standards through a process that by War Thunder terms would consist of a downgrade. Their missiles and autoloaders were removed, as were the fuel tanks in the rear hull doors, turning them into a fairly conventional manually-loaded gun-armed light tank. While the BMP-1’s gun is still decent, the loss of both the missile and the autoloader will provide a much lower effective rate of fire, which for a tank with this little armour will be a huge disadvantage. This BMP seems to sit between the PT-76B and BMP-1 in power: it’s better armed than the PT-76, with 100mm more penetration with its HEAT and no stock ammo grind, but much worse than the standard BMP-1. Since this is a reunified German vehicle, it should still be available to both East and West German lineups even if separated matchmaking is introduced for the two Germanies.

 

sKPz (schwerer Kampfpanzer) IS-II(M)

 

Spoiler

 

East Germany operated IS-2s with both the 1943 and 1944 hull types, of which some appear to be the modernised IS-2M variant. The specifics of the East German IS-2s are not readily known, but several photographed IS-2s in their service are visually identical to Soviet IS-2Ms, which suggests that either a second delivery of IS-2s was made, or else East Germany upgraded a few of their Model 1944s themselves. Given that the IS-2M dates from 1957 and all sources seem to agree that the DDR received just one delivery of IS-2s, in 1953, it appears very unlikely that any IS-2Ms were supplied by the USSR. As such, the examples we see in East German service are more likely to have been upgraded by the Germans, just as they upgraded their T-54s into the T-54Z, T-54AZ and T-54AMZ variants. Even Soviet IS-2Ms were conversions of existing IS-2s, which supports this theory.

 

More to the point, visual evidence supports East Germany having IS-2Ms, which would definitely have the postwar BR-471D shell by this point and may well have had access to other improved ammunition for their 122mm gun. Otherwise, the IS-2M is very similar to the Model 1944, the most notable changes being the modification of the hull sides to hold integrated stowage boxes, the removal of the machine gun in the turret rear, distinctive clamshell-style track guards, and the fitting of new tracks and roadwheels from the T-10M. Depending on ammunition choices, this could be a BR 6.7 heavy tank, East Germany’s counterpart to the Tiger II (H), and would form the backbone of their Tier IV lineup.

 

The USSR tree should obviously also receive an IS-2M, which may well be superior to the German one. As I understand it, the IS-2M may have had access to improved shells similar to the T-10M, which would definitely be available to the Soviet version if they were indeed issued. Typically, the most modern ammunition was held back for use by the USSR itself, so although BR-471D would definitely have been available to East German IS-2s, any more modern ammunition such as HEAT or APDS may have been exclusive to Soviet units.

 

Fla-SFL W50 (2M-3) (25mm Zwillings Schiffsflak 2M-3 auf Flugabwehr-Selbstfahrlafette W50)

 

Spoiler

2zAt5Su.jpg

 

This is one of the only genuinely unique East German vehicles: an SPAAG truck armed with a twin-mount 25mm AA gun. Built on the chassis of the W50 flatbed truck, which was designed and manufactured by East German automotive conglomerate IFA, this AA mounts the 2M-3 twin-25mm AA turret used on many Soviet naval vessels. This turret is, in fact, already in War Thunder on several Soviet ships, which would greatly simplify the modelling process. The 10mm armour on the turret would be the only protection on the entire vehicle, since the W50 is simply a standard civilian truck, but the twin-25mm armament is formidable against both aircraft and light vehicles, having penetration in the mid-50mm range and both a high velocity and rate of fire.

 

SFL SU-100 (Selbstfahrlafette SU-100)

 

Spoiler

 

This one takes very little explanation. It’s the SU-100 in East German service, differing only in that when it was first delivered to the paramilitary Kasernierte Volkspolizei, who were not a true army, they were not provided with APCR ammunition. This may have changed later, but we have no evidence either way, and it’s not really an issue since the 100mm APCR round has been utterly worthless ever since the change from test data to penetration formulae. This SU-100 is just an extra choice to round out the lineup, providing better protection than the other tank destroyers available in this BR range (see below) in exchange for its lack of turret and lower max penetration.

 

SFL-H (Selbstfahrlafette-Haubitze) 2S3M 

 

Spoiler

 

The Soviet 2S3M Akatsiya self-propelled howitzer in East German service. This is a 152.4mm turreted SPH, built in response to the USA’s M109, which is fully enclosed but very poorly armoured with a maximum of 30mm on the front and 15mm on the sides. Its 152.4mm howitzer had a variety of ammunition, with several HE shells and three different anti-armour rounds. HE came in standard, rocket-assisted and laser-guided rocket-assisted types. AP-T came in two types: BR-540 and BR-540B, which had 120mm and 115mm penetration at 1km, respectively, which implies closer to 200mm at point blank. The main AT round was the BP-540 HEAT-FS which penetrates 250mm at all ranges. The variant used by the East Germans was specifically the 2S3M, which had what appears to be a 12-round drum autoloader, slightly increased ammo stowage, and access to the OF-29 HE-Frag round, which is described as “much more powerful” than earlier types. The OF-38 Krasnopol laser-guided rocket-assisted HE round was also developed for this variant, but since it wasn’t standard issue until the following 2S3M1 and the USSR tended not to give allied states the newest and best ammunition, it’s fairly likely East Germany’s 2S3Ms would not have been issued this round.

 

This vehicle is quite similar to Japan’s Type 75 SPH, with equivalent frontal armour and mobility, but gains more direct-fire ability in exchange for much worse side and rear armour. This armour difference means little except that 2S3M can’t take .50 Cal fire to the sides, whereas Type 75 can if angled correctly. 250mm max penetration is not a whole lot, but it’s enough to be a danger to Tier III/IV heavy tanks as well as early MBTs, which gives 2S3M a big advantage compared to Type 75 because it doesn’t need to hit precise places with HE to penetrate. Since 2S3M still has most of the same weaknesses, I’d expect it to be only a little higher than Type 75, but it’s definitely the better vehicle for War Thunder by virtue of being less situational so a higher BR is a must.

 

For the USSR tree, a further development of the 2S3M like the 2S3M1 would be a good equivalent, especially since all variants from 2S3M on had the same hull, which would simplify modelling. 2S3M1 had a new sight and FCS, but the most relevant change was the addition of the OF-38 Krasnopol rocket-assisted, laser-guided HE round to standard issue ammunition.

 

SFL-H (Selbstfahrlafette-Haubitze) 2S1

 

Spoiler

Eastern Bloc militaries — East German 2S1 Gvozdika self-propelled artillery.

 

Very similar in overall design to the 2S3M, the SFL-H 2S1 is the name for the 2S1 Gvozdika 122mm-armed turreted SPH in East German service. The vehicle, like 2S3M, is a rear-turreted SPH with very thin armour (20mm in this case), and can once again fire a variety of rounds. Although it has a smaller calibre, the 2S1 has superior anti-tank ammunition, which is why I’ve given it a slightly higher estimated BR. In addition to HE and rocket-assisted HE, it is listed as having AP Flechette shells (some form of canister round?), APHE (I couldn’t find anything specific on this, but it might be standard 122mm Soviet APHE like the ISU-122’s), and the BK-6M HEAT-FS round which penetrates 460-580mm, roughly double that of the 2S3M’s HEAT-FS. Between the higher penetration and a sustained fire rate twice that of the 2S3M, the 2S1 is probably the better vehicle in War Thunder’s meta, although it does still retain many of the same flaws.

 

There is no slightly improved version of the 2S1 to give the Soviet tree, so in this case both East Germany and the USSR should receive the same vehicle, similar to how the F-84F and SK-105 Kurassier were introduced to several nations simultaneously.

 

 

Tier V

Spoiler

 

sKPz (schwerer Kampfpanzer) T-10

 

Spoiler

1.png

 

This might be a slightly controversial addition, but the suggestion for this tank got largely positive responses and it does fill a useful role. The East Germans ordered 121 T-10s in 1959, intending to replace their IS-2s with them, and had made arrangements for both ammunition deliveries and driver training in the USSR for 1960, but ultimately this deal was cancelled. The German T-10s would not be in full operation until the 1960s, and in the face of new MBTs on the NATO side, the obsolescence of heavy tanks as a concept was clear. East Germany cancelled their order and received more T-54/55 MBTs instead. In War Thunder, however, the sKPz T-10 would be a good replacement for the Maus as a tech tree heavy tank, and due to the recent addition of T-10A it would also be very easy to implement. Assuming that the East Germans would have gotten the unstabilised original T-10, I’ve given it an estimated BR of 7.3, just below the T-10A with its one-axis stabiliser. It’s possible that East Germany could have received any T-10 model except T-10M, in which case they would be higher BR vehicles, but the specific variant is not hugely important and would likely be up to the devs.

 

mKPz T-54AMZ (mittlerer Kampfpanzer T-54AM Zusatzausrüstung)

 

Spoiler

T54AMZ-vl.png

 

This is one of East Germany’s own modifications, taking their T-54 MBTs and modernising them to roughly the level of the T-55. Ammunition is still limited to just UOF-412 HE, 3BK-5 HEAT-FS, and 3BM-8 APDS, similar to the T-54 1951 in the Soviet tree, and its stabiliser would still be the single-plane one seen on the T-54A, rather than the T-55A’s superior two-plane one. Its similarity in functionality to the Chinese Type 59 (a licenced derivative of the T-54A) makes it a perfect 8.0 choice for the subtree, where it would provide Germany a unique T-54 variant with a distinctive appearance thanks to the prominent turret cheek stowage boxes so common on East German MBTs.

 

Startfahrzeug SPW-40 (9M14) 

 

Spoiler

Gaipls, one of the only East German-specific variants - SPW-40 ATGM  variant, a BTR-40 with 9M114 Malyutka ATGMs.: Warthunder

 

Another of the rare unique East German modifications, this is a single known SPW-40 (aka BTR-40) four-wheeled APC which was equipped with a pop-up launcher for two ready-to-fire 9M14 Malyutka ATGMs. This is the default ATGM for the BMP-1, which is a workable but hardly amazing missile, and would make this vehicle something of a wheeled equivalent to Japan’s Type 60 ATM. Judging by the BRDM-based missile vehicles whose pop-up launcher appears to have been put on this vehicle, the SPW-40 should be able to store a few spare missiles. This missile stowage would be limited, due to the small size of the vehicle, but should equal the six total missiles Type 60 carries, which is probably the minimum for a vehicle like this to be usable. Fast and highly-penetrating, this vehicle would be quite powerful if the player used its mobility to get a good position, but would be at severe risk if caught in the open. Like Type 60, it should probably have scouting, which would give it a further functionality beyond pure tank hunting.

 

SPz (Schutzenpanzer) BMP-1

 

Spoiler

GarageImage SPz BMP-1.jpg

 

It’s the BMP-1 in East German service. It’s already in-game, no need to explain it.

 

Fla-SFL 57/2 (Flugabwehr-Selbstfahrlafette 57/2 Ausf. T-55)

 

Spoiler

 

This is the East German designation for the ZSU-57-2, which was issued to the NVA in two variants: those based on T-54 hulls and those based on T-55 hulls. The difference is negligible and would probably be purely cosmetic, since all ZSU-57-2s have pathetic hull armour anyway. Besides being a decent tank-destroyer to round out the lineup, it’s also a workable SPAAG (which is, after all, its design role) even if the lower-BR Fla-SFL W50 2M-3 is likely to have an easier time hitting fast-moving aircraft due to its higher fire rate and tighter spread. East Germany was the first nation other than the USSR to receive them, with the first examples entering service in 1957, just two years later than the Soviet ones and a full year before the November 1958 parade where the ZSU-57-2 was actually revealed to the world. 

 

 

Tier VI

Spoiler

 

mKPz T-55A(P) (mittlerer Kampfpanzer T-55A (Polnisch))

 

Spoiler

1c578292c6e620342d10a023d0737542.jpg

 

This is the East German designation for T-55As built in Poland, which had a slightly different steering system that added a hydraulic steering aid for the driver. This made steering the tank slightly less tiring for the driver, but is unlikely to have any real impact on gameplay. Depending on how it’s implemented, this vehicle would have two different ranges of ammunition. As originally delivered, the tanks were not supplied with any subcalibre ammunition, which limited them to just APCBC and HEAT-FS and gives them a similar level of firepower to the T-54 1951. From 1972 onwards, they were issued with 3BM-8 APDS and 3BM-25 APFSDS, which brings them up to the level of the T-55A in the Soviet tech tree. Since the T-54AMZ can cover the same BR range that the early T-55A(P) would, but there is nothing to take the late T-55A(P)’s slot at 8.3, I’ve gone with the 1972 version of the tank. This would be functionally the same as the excellent T-55A, unless the devs decided to slightly buff its steering to reflect the steering aid. It would also be visually identifiable by its East German markings and the prominent stowage box on its left turret cheek.

 

mKPz (mittlerer Kampfpanzer) T-55AM-2B

 

Spoiler

T55AM2-vl.png

 

Although the Czech-built T-55AM-2 (a licenced variant of the T-55AM-1) originally lacked ATGM launching capabilities, this feature was restored on the AM-2B variant, which is the type exported to East Germany. Even without the missiles, the AM-2’s composite applique armour, improved engine, rubber side skirts and laser rangefinder made it far superior to the T-55A previously operated by East Germany; with the missile, the new tank was superior in practically every regard. It was the best T-55 model operated by East Germany by a long shot and would sit alongside the better-armed but in many ways less advanced mKPz T-72 (export T-72 Ural) similarly to how the Soviet tree's T-55A and T-62 share a BR due to their differing strengths.

 

This tank would be functionally identical to the Soviet pack premium T-55AM-1, with the East German roundels and distinctive stowage boxes on the turret sides acting as visual distinctions. Unlike the Soviet one, this should ideally be at a fair BR in the tech tree. It makes no sense whatsoever that the AM-1, which is tougher, better armed and more mobile than the T-55A, should have the same BR of 8.3 and I am deliberately ignoring its BR decrease in my suggested BR for its East German twin. At a sensible BR like 8.7, this tank would be the backbone of the East German 8.s lineup, supported by the other T-54/55s, and joined by a full lineup of lighter vehicles.

 

Although it’s unfortunate that adding this tank to Germany would give another nation a free version of a Soviet premium, there is no other option to fill this gap. I feel that the T-55AM-1 should never have been a premium anyway, being such a major production model, but we can’t turn back time. To avoid giving East Germany a direct tech tree clone of a Soviet premium, I’d personally recommend updating the existing T-55AM-1 with one of the thermal sight upgrades offered to export customers. This would make it the better tank, restoring the reason to buy it, and would hopefully also see its BR increase to something sensible. As far as tech tree equivalents, the ERA-equipped T-55AMV-1 would be ideal, and the T-55AD-1 with the Drozd hard-kill APS would be another good option (although that one feels more appropriate as a Squadron or Event Vehicle).

 

mKPz (mittlerer Kampfpanzer) T-72

 

Spoiler

East German Army (NVA) T-72 Ural - IPMS Ireland

 

I originally did not include this tank. When I was originally doing research, it seemed much less interesting than other East German tanks and for a while I literally forgot it existed. When I started thinking about lineups, however, what originally didn’t interest me became much more useful than I’d previously thought.

 

The mKPz T-72 is the German name for the export version of the T-72 “Ural” (Object 172M), which was called Object 172M-E, or simply “T-72”. The Ural is significantly worse-protected than the T-72A, having no composite in the turret at all, and the export version also featured a slightly downgraded gun amongst other cost-cutting measures. It’s also pretty likely that they would have been delivered with inferior ammunition, between the USSR’s general policy of not supplying export customers with the best ammo and the fact that these were the DDR’s very first T-72s. Given that the mKPz T-72 is significantly worse than the mKPz T-72ÜV-1, which itself has noticeably worse armour than the mKPz T-72M1 (roughly equivalent to the T-72A), a BR of 8.7 for this tank might be reasonable. This assumes that the M1 winds up at 9.3 like the T-72A and the ÜV-1 goes to 9.0, which seems plausible to me. As with all of the East German T-72s, this is an export version that the Soviet Union never operated, which will make it at least somewhat unique even if/when the USSR gets their own T-72 Ural, particularly when it comes to ammunition.

 

mKPz T-72ÜV-1 (mittlerer Kampfpanzer T-72 Übergangsversion 1)

 

Spoiler

image0.jpg

 

One of the more unique Soviet tank variants East Germany used, the T-72ÜV-1 is their designation for the export version of the T-72A. This vehicle features an older night sight and a less effective turret armour layout, making it a slightly worse vehicle, but it’s still superior to the T-55AM-2B and would be 9.0 at minimum. Depending on how much or little the armour downgrade hurts it, it might still wind up as the same BR as the T-72A, though I don’t find this too likely given that its ammunition selection is also probably worse. Since the Soviet Union never used the export variants, both this and the T-72M1 would be unique to the East German sub-tree.

 

mKPz (mittlerer Kampfpanzer) T-72M1

 

Spoiler

East German tanks - General & Upcoming - War Thunder - Official Forum

 

This is a superior export version to the T-72ÜV-1, functionally equivalent to the T-72A Model 1983. The one major difference is that it was never fielded with a better round than 3BM15, giving it slightly worse ammunition choices than the Soviet tree’s T-72A. Overall, they’re about as good as one another and 3BM15 hardly seems a terrible top shell for BR 9.3, so I’d still expect the T-72M1 to share the BR of its non-export ancestor.

 

Startfahrzeug 9P148

 

Spoiler

East German 9P148 | Kadir Aksoy | Flickr

 

This is one of the many ATGM carriers based on the BRDM-2 wheeled amphibious APC. East Germany used many of the earlier versions armed with the 9M14 Malyutka, but their SPW-40 with the same missile (and the same pop-up launcher) filled that role while being a unique vehicle, so this would be the only one really needed for their sub-tree. The 9P148 uses the 9M113 Konkurs ATGM, which is the BMP-1P’s missile, as well as the 9M111 Fagot ATGM. It fires these from a 5-missile pop-up launcher, which can be reloaded by the crew through a small access door. This is a mobile, amphibious ATGM vehicle which would be able to support its team by rapidly moving between good positions and flanking hostile forces. It would make sense for it to have scouting, but it would probably be a decent vehicle even as a pure tank destroyer.

 

SPz (Schützenpanzer) BMP-2

 

Spoiler

Eastern Bloc militaries — Crew of a East German BMP-2 infantry fighting...

 

This is the BMP-2 in East German service, differing only in its markings.

 

Fla-SFL 23/4W1 “Schilka” (Flugabwehr-Selbstfahrlafette 23/4W1 “Schilka”)

 

Spoiler

 

This is one of several ZSU-23-4 variants used by East Germany, all of which are slightly better than the base ZSU-23-4 in the Soviet tree. The one I’ve chosen is the Fla-SFL 23/4W1, which is their name for the ZSU-23-4V1. The V1 variant followed up the V model, which enhanced reliability and added a commander’s vision device, and made more substantial improvements: the reliability of the radar was improved, a slightly better engine (the V-6R-1) was fitted, and the guidance computer was upgraded, which improved the fire accuracy in motion at speeds up to 40 kph (25 mph). All of these together makes for a slightly better Shilka, but not one that’s enormously superior.

 

The Soviet tree could get a few different upgraded Shilkas, such as the ZSU-23-4M3 “Biryusa” or even the AAM-equipped Russian ZSU-34-4M5, all of which would be even better than the W1.

 

 

Tier VII

Spoiler

 

mKPz (mittlerer Kampfpanzer) T-72S

 

Spoiler

T-72S.jpg

 

Like the sKPz T-10, this might be a slightly controversial pick, but once again East Germany did make an official order for these vehicles. In this case, they didn’t receive them because they were ordered in 1989 and the Soviet Union fell before their planned 1995 delivery date, so Germany was reunified long before the T-72S would have arrived. If the USSR had not fallen, however, the NVA would have received this tank just like their preceding Soviet-made MBTs, so it’s a valid choice for the sub-tree and would be the crowning jewel of their MBT line. The T-72S is the export version of the T-72B, featuring the same armament and composite armour, but fitted with a slightly worse engine and a less complete coverage of ERA bricks. Rather than the 227 bricks on a T-72B, the T-72S only had 155, though this still gave a good frontal coverage. As an export-only variant, the T-72S would once again be unique to East Germany, even though that’s mainly by being worse than the Soviet equivalent.

 

Fla-SFZ 9M33M3 Osa-AKM (Flugabwehr-Startfahrzeug 9K33M3 Osa-AKM)

 

Spoiler

tumblr_p3qtidIef21u0l55ro1_1280.jpg

 

This is a wheeled, amphibious long-range SAM system which would be the East German counterpart to the FlaRakRad for West Germany.

 

 

Layout 1: Two Lines

Spoiler

 

This layout adds two full lines to the German tree, which keeps the East German vehicles separate from the rest and avoids having to slot their lower-tier vehicles (e.g. PT-76(K1)) in between WWII tanks. The first line contains regular tanks for the most part, while the second line is for the tank destroyers and AA vehicles. This version contains more vehicles and would be the more time-intensive to implement, but has a number of benefits over the one-line version, mainly in terms of progression simplicity.

 

Spoiler

rk18uuQ.png

 

The 15cm sIG 33B Sfl. (aka Sturmpanzer II) is now in the StuG line, replacing the Pz.35(t) and Pz.38(t) A, which now start off the tank line of the East German / Beutepanzer subtree. These two are tabbed together for faster research, being very similar tanks, and the Pz.35-S(f) slots in after their tab to round out the tier.

 

In the new TD / AA line, the ADGZ armoured car starts things off. Due to its thin armour, the general awkwardness of driving armoured cars, and the likelihood that its shorter gun would reduce its penetration compared to other 20mms, I’m assuming that it would be balanced here.

 

Following the ADGZ, we have another research tab containing the 105mm SPHs based on the Light Tank Mk VI and Lorraine 37L. Their order and BRs could easily be reversed and in both cases may be too high; these are just suggestions. My thinking was that the Light Tank version would be severely overloaded and top-heavy, which could make it difficult to use, whereas the Lorraine version would be a much more stable and practical vehicle. There is an admitted degree of redundancy here, both vehicles being weak and armed with roughly the same gun. The Light Tank version could be a premium instead, or the Lorraine version could be left out in favour of the very similar (but totally German) Pz.II-based Wespe SPH. Since there was room, I decided to still have both in the example tree.

 

Spoiler

G0oNNIf.png

 

The Pz.38(t) F has been moved to Tier II, where it would gain scouting and become a much more useful tank as a result. It’s tabbed with the faster Pz.38(t) nA for ease of research, just like its Tier I relatives.

After these tanks is the Matilda Oswald, since this was the closest thing to an actual turreted tank I could find other than a total copy-paste Char B1 or the German flamethrower version, neither of which are good choices for many reasons. I do have my misgivings about putting the Oswald in the tree, since it’s a total one-off and would probably be better off as a limited-access vehicle, but it’s here anyway just to have a full range of vehicles. If the Oswald wasn’t in this line, I’d leave the Pz.38(t)s separated to fill things out instead.

 

The TD line starts with a third 105mm SPH, this time based on the formidable Char B1. Though its gun shield leaves it open to the top, sides, and rear, this vehicle still benefits from the B1’s strong hull by keeping the hull crew safe so that they can replace the gunner, so 2.0 seemed reasonable as a starting BR even if I can see it going lower. This is followed by the 15cm Lorraine, being another open-topped SPH, albeit one with a much larger gun.

 

Lastly, we have two armoured cars: the Panzerspähwagen P204(f) mit KwK 39 and the Schützenpanzerwagen PSH.

 

The P204(f) is a German open-topped, upgunned variant of the French AMD.35 armoured car. Both the KwK 38 and KwK 39 50mm guns were both fitted to this vehicle, and either would be valid options, but my estimated BR of 2.3 is for the better-armed KwK 39 version.

 

I’d originally planned to have the SPW-PSH in Tier III to keep the WW2 and Cold War elements of this subtree separate, but given the R3 situation it seemed a bad idea to let another small, fast armoured car be eligible for events. Although it’s much earlier in the subtree, SPW-PSH is intended as an optional extra scout to go with higher BR lineups, rather than a front-line vehicle at its own BR. As East Germany’s only non-Soviet armoured car, it would remain unique even if the USSR got something like the BTR-70 or BRDM-2. Being tabbed with the P204 as an optional research is probably the best place for it.

 

Spoiler

j6gxrzf.png

 

Tier III’s tanks line has a vehicle for each weight class. We start with the SPz PT-76(K1), a unique East German command variant of the PT-76B. It’s functionally the same, just with some extra radios, so it’s the lowest-BR of the three. Next, the mKPz T-34-85 (1945) is a slightly better variant than the current Soviet ones, having powered turret traverse and smoke canisters. The Soviets should get the even better 1946 model, which also has an engine upgrade. Lastly, the sKPz IS-II is simply the original BR 5.7 IS-2 with the lower glacis track armour and AA DShK HMG from the in-game IS-2 (1944); its likely BR varies depending on whether it gets the postwar BR-471D round. Realistically, it should have this shell since it was delivered in the mid-1950s, but as the devs use ammo as a balancing factor it could go either way. None of the three is particularly related, which is why none are tabbed together, and all of them would be needed for a fully rounded lineup so there’s no reason for a player to skip one.

 

The TD / AA line has just one of each, but it’s at least enough to form a lineup. SFL SU-85 (an SU-85 with the SU-85M’s ammunition) is the only TD/SPG available for this BR range. It’s not exciting, but it does the job. The vehicle after it, the SPW-40A, is a weaker, slightly nimbler equivalent to the Soviet tree’s BTR-152A, having the same AA turret with two 14.5mm KPVT autocannons. It’s here simply to provide a guaranteed AA backup to the lower-BR vehicles in this range; the next AA in the sub-tree would probably be able to run alongside the T-34-85 and IS-II, but I wanted a backup just in case.

 

Spoiler

gxB1yEi.png

 

Tier IV’s tanks line also has three separate research options, for the same reasons. T-34-85M (1960) is a much-improved T-34 that might get better ammo; it would run nicely alongside the IS-II and the other T-34-85. A good Soviet counterpart would be the ultimate variant, the T-34-85M (1969). The BMP-1A1 Ost is technically a reunified German vehicle, so shouldn’t be limited to a particular side even if the West and East Germanies are otherwise split in the MM. It’s a BMP-1 without the missile and autoloader, which is why it’s a full BR lower than the normal one. The IS-IIM is the East German counterpart to the Tiger II (H), bearing a few minor upgrades over the IS-2 (1944) along with a likely improvement in ammunition, similar to how the T-10M’s ammo compares to T-10A.

 

The AA/TD line is more full than last tier and starts with the entirely unique IFA W50 (2M-3), an East German truck equipped with a Soviet twin-25mm naval AA turret. This is here not only because it’s likely to be the lowest in BR but also to make it easy to get, being a much more suitable AA for 5.7 and up than the SPW-40A. It’s followed by the SFL SU-100 (an SU-100 without APCR, which makes no real difference), plus a pair of lightly armoured, turreted SPHs in a tab. The 2S3M is a 152mm SPH with 250mm max AP with HEAT and a long reload, making it a slightly better counterpart to Japan’s Type 75 SPH; the 2S1 has a smaller 122mm gun with a much better max penetration of 450mm, higher velocity, and faster reload, so it has the higher BR of the two. Between these three, the East German Tier IV lineup has plenty of options for TDs to suit most playstyles.

 

Spoiler

Zv43CAH.png

 

Tier V mostly caters to the relatively strong BR 7.3 lineup. The sKPz T-10 (like T-10A but without the stabiliser) is the centrepiece, being supported by the already implemented SPz BMP-1, plus an East German ZSU-57-2 for dual AA/AT purposes and a unique DDR missile vehicle based on the SPW-40. To round out the lineup, these could of course be backed up by players’ favourite vehicles from the tier below. The only outlier is the T-54AMZ, which is roughly on par with China’s Type 59 and is likely to be a BR 8.0 as a result. It’s placed here because there’s no room in Tier VI, where the rest of its lineup is.

 

Spoiler

MbEAy1b.png

 

Tier VI has the most vehicles of any tier, providing enough MBTs and supporting vehicles to form several strong lineups. T-55A(P) is a Polish-supplied T-55A and is equivalent for gameplay purposes; the T-54AMZ from the previous tier would be best used as a backup for this tank. The T-55AM-2B is essentially an export T-55AM-1; it’s at 8.7 because that’s where the Soviet one should be. Being faster, tougher and better armed than the T-55A, plus having a laser rangefinder, there is no sane reason for it to be the same BR even if that’s where the AM-1 currently sits. The USSR tree could get either the T-55AMV-1 (an AM-1 with ERA instead of applique) or T-55AD-1 (with a hard-kill APS instead of applique) as their tech tree equivalent. I’d have preferred not to have an existing premium as a tech tree tank, since that makes the original premium less worth having, but there is no other option in this case. Applying one of the thermal packages offered for export T-55AM-1s would be an easy way to make the Soviet premium better than the East German version.

 

Following these, there are three T-72s. The first is the export version of the T-72 Ural, which lacks any turret composite amongst other downgrades. The second, T-72ÜV-1, has composite in an inferior layout to the T-72A which provides less coverage and also lacks the top rounds, which is why it’s 9.0 and not 9.3. The final one, T-72M-1, is a T-72A limited to 3BM15 as its top shell, which isn’t much of a downgrade. This one is pretty much equivalent, so I’ve estimated it as 9.3. The mKPz T-72 would be the second BR 8.7 MBT alongside the T-55AM-2B, as well as a backup for the T-72ÜV-1, which itself would be a backup for the T-72M-1.

The T-55s and first two T-72s are tabbed for ease of grinding, since there are so many vehicles, although for the sake of lineups it’s advisable to research most of them anyway.

 

The TD/AA line gives us the 9P148, a BRDM-2 based ATGM vehicle firing the same missiles as BMP-2. As a fast, lightweight vehicle based on a scout car, it would probably get scouting. SPz BMP-2 is exactly what it sounds like and is a less exciting vehicle, but definitely necessary. Lastly, the Shilka variant here is better in a few ways than the Soviet one, having better tracking accuracy in general and especially while moving. There are several further improved models that could be added to the Soviets to address any fears that Germany would get the best version in the game, including one with SAMs.

 

Spoiler

1wUr8Rj.png

 

Lastly, in Tier VII, we have the top MBT, the T-72S. As a rough equivalent to the T-72B, although with a less extensive ERA coverage, it would be a solid tank but will unfortunately struggle a bit from not having any supporting vehicles of the same BR, which is sadly an unavoidable situation. The only other vehicle here, the Osa-AKM, is a long-range SAM vehicle which would fill the same niche for the East Germans as the FlaRakRad does for the other German tree.

 

 

 

Layout 2: One Line

Spoiler

 

The idea behind this setup is to add one new line to contain the majority of the new vehicles and fit the rest (especially the SPAAs) into existing lines.

 

Spoiler

9rVGwDQ.png

 

Just like the two-line version, the 15cm sIG 33B Sfl. (aka Sturmpanzer II) is moved to the StuG line. The Pz.35(t) and Pz.38(t) A, which used to be there, now start off the tank line of the East German / Beutepanzer subtree. They not only fit better with other turreted tanks but also, as captured Czech tanks, they are in fact Beutepanzers and would have belonged here anyway. These two are tabbed together for faster research, being very similar tanks, and the Pz.35-S(f) (lightly modified SOMUA S.35) slots in after their tab to round out the tier.

 

Replacing the Sturmpanzer II in the open-topped TD line is the Austrian ADGZ armoured car. This slots in after the Sd.Kfz.221; since both are armoured cars, this makes for a neat progression from one to the next. The other new vehicle in this tier is the 10,5cm Sfl. B-2(f), which is the famous open-topped 105mm howitzer vehicle based on the hulls of captured Char B1 heavy tanks. This slots in between the Sturmpanzer II and the StuG III A since the three vehicles are all slow-moving and armed with howitzers.

 

Spoiler

oAptHxC.png

 

There are few changes in Tier II outside of the new line. The Pz.38(t) F we already have is now a Tier II vehicle, giving it scouting like its Swedish cousin the Strv m/41. It’s tabbed with the Pz.38(t) nA, a further improved prototype variant with far better mobility, although armament and armour remain average at best. Following this is the East German SPW-PSH amphibious armoured car. This is here as Germany’s counterpart to the USSR’s iconic BRDM-2 and BTR-70 armoured cars, whose armament and armour are comparable. In the event these vehicles are added to the USSR, this would give Germany an equivalent that isn’t just a copy-paste (the SPW-PSH, a Hungarian design, is the only non-Soviet vehicle of this class East Germany used). Functionally, this would be an additional scout option for low-BR East German lineups; it’s here rather than in Tier III to avoid it being cap-rushed in events like the R3.

 

Originally I was going to have the one-off 50mm-armed Matilda “Oswald” SPG conversion in this slot, but I felt that the Oswald was too unique to be a tree vehicle. It remains in the two-line version, but even that is with some misgivings.

 

Spoiler

waqN5b4.png

 

In Tier III, we run in some of the issues with this one-line setup. The Fla-SFL SPW-40A (a 4-wheeled equivalent to the Soviet BTR-152A) is a 1950s vehicle, but its BR is likely to be 3.0 just like the BTR-152A. It needs to be here to provide AA cover for the early DDR tanks, but no matter where it goes, its place in the progression is awkward. Either it sits after significantly higher-BR vehicles than itself or it anachronistically comes before three WWII vehicles despite being from the 1950s. I don’t think it’s a huge issue, but it’s a problem that the two-line version avoids by having a totally separate progression for East German vehicles.

We have a similar but less extreme case of the same thing in the casemate TD line, where the SFL SU-85 is slotted in between the Jagdpanzer IV and Jagdpanzer IV/70. The Jagdpanzer 38(t) and Jagdpanzer IV are also tabbed together to make room, since their BRs are relatively close. The new line, meanwhile, contains three vehicles: a light tank (SPz PT-76(K1)), a medium tank (mKPz T-34-85 (1945)), and a heavy tank (sKPz IS-II). These three provide the backbone of a well-rounded lineup, backed up by the SU-85 as TD support and the SPW-40A as AA.

 

Spoiler

Vq1fvr0.png

 

In Tier IV, we have additions to four lines. The light tank / open-topped TD line gains the SFL-H 2S3M and SFL-H 2S1 turreted self-propelled howitzers, which are highly similar and are tabbed for this reason. The 2S1 is higher, since though its 122mm gun is smaller than the 2S3M’s 152mm, it has much higher penetration, velocity, and rate of fire. Since their playstyle and survivability is probably similar to Waffentrager while their armour is in a similar ballpark to the M41, this line feels the best place for them. The casemate line, meanwhile, gains the SFL SU-100. Though of course the Jagdtiger follows in Tier V, the SU-100 at least comes after the chronologically earlier vehicles in its own Tier.

 

Mirroring the previous tier, the new line gives another light, medium, and heavy tank. These fill the same roles and playstyles as tier Tier III counterparts, just at higher BRs and in a different order since this T-34-85 is the weakest of the trio. Between the turreted SPHs and the SFL SU-100, they will have plenty of options for TD support, and the new W50 (2M-3) AA provides the proper protection against planes. Based on an East German truck, the W50 AA is one of the few totally unique East German vehicles and carries a formidable twin-25mm AA armament in a Soviet naval turret.

 

Spoiler

S6F9uZu.png

 

Tier V builds upon the existing positions of our only East German tank so far to avoid adding to the already overstuffed casemate TD line. The SPW-40 (9M14), a version of the same 4-wheeled armoured car they have as an AA earlier in the tree, carries the BMP-1’s default missile in a pop-up twin launcher. Though small and fast, it has no real defence other than the missiles and would be generally on par with Japan’s Type 60 ATM. The shared missile, plus their high mobility, makes it a sensible vehicle to lead into the SPz BMP-1.

 

The AA line gains the East German ZSU-57-2, which although not great in an AA role is still workable and well worth having as an option for Tier V lineups. Meanwhile in the new line, we have two vehicles with different applications. The sKPz T-10 is the T-10 heavy tank the East Germans ordered to replace their IS-2s, though they would later cancel that order before any could be delivered. The T-10 is identical to the battle pass reward T-10A (an excellent tank) without the one-plane stabiliser that tank has. This would suit it to a slightly lower BR, allowing it to run alongside the BMP-1, Fla-SFL 5/2, and SPW-40 (9M14) in a limited, but workable lineup. The mKPz T-54AMZ is a unique East German modification of the T-54 adding many upgrades, most notably a one-plane stabiliser. The Chinese Type 59 is a copy of the T-54A, and while T-54AMZ has several other changes, it’s about as good on a gameplay level, which gives us an idea of where it would go. Although it sits in Tier V for space reasons, it’s really the first member of the low Tier VI lineup I’ll describe next.

 

Spoiler

MiJBEV9.png

 

Slotting in after the Begleitpanzer 57 in Tier VI is the SPz BMP-2, which is simply an East German BMP-2 to act as the IFV/scout for this lineup. The AA line sees the Fla-SFL 23/4W1, a moderately improved Shilka variant, follow the Gepard as the DDR lineup’s equivalent radar AA. Because it is better than the Soviet Shilka, which is just the base version, I’ve given it a higher BR which it might not wind up needing in game. In the casemate TD line, the 9P148 wheeled ATGM carrier is the East German lineup’s answer to the Raketenjagdpanzer 2 HOT, being a fast missile carrier based on the amphibious BRDM-2 and armed with the same base missile as the BMP-2.

 

The new line gets pretty crowded here, since we have no choice but to fit every Tier VI East German MBT into a single line. Heavy use of tabbing helps the progression here, but it’s still a lot for one line. This is the other major issue with the one line layout, though the tabbing has mitigated it somewhat and mandatory research for this tier is only three vehicles. The mKPz T-55A(P) and T-55AM-2B build on the mKPz T-54AMZ’s foundation and together will form a decent lineup even if none of them are the same BR. These vehicles are, besides some minor details, identical to the Soviet T-55A and T-55AM-1, so both are guaranteed to be great tanks. To those unhappy with Germany having a tech tree equivalent of a Soviet premium, I can’t say much other than that there’s no other option for Germany and frankly the devs should never have made the AM-1 a premium in the first place. The T-55AMV-1 or T-55AD-1 could give the Soviets a tech tree equivalent to the German T-55AM-2B, in any case, so it’s not like there’s not another option for the USSR.

 

The subsequent tab contains two early T-72s, both of which are worse than the Soviet T-72A. The mKPz T-72 is an export version of the steel-turreted T-72 Ural, whereas the T-72ÜV-1 is a markedly inferior export version of the T-72A. The mKPz T-72 could fit BR 8.7 fairly well due to the total lack of turret composite, so it would likely be the second component of the East German 8.7 lineup alongside T-55AM-2B. The ÜV-1 would be able to form a lineup backed up by both 8.7s, as well as backing up the next vehicle in the line: the T-72M1. The M1 is an export version of the T-72A which is more or less on par with it, in contrast to the ÜV-1’s notably inferior composite layout, so I’ve placed it at the same BR.

 

Spoiler

bM3167H.png

 

Lastly, in Tier VII, we have one change and two additions. The T-72S, an export version of the T-72B with less extensive ERA coverage that was ordered by East Germany but never received due to the dissolution of the Soviet Union, is the only Tier VII DDR MBT and is the crowning jewel in the tree. It’s alone at its BR, but since it’s not much higher than the T-72M1 it could still be supported solidly by that tank; its main issue is the lack of equivalent light tanks and tank destroyers to round out the lineup. It does, at least, have a top-tier AA: the Osa-AKM, an amphibious SAM vehicle whose missiles have a long enough range to handle pretty much any helicopter in-game. This capability puts it on par with the FlaRakRad available to West German lineups, and it follows that vehicle in the tree. For ease of progression, FlaRakRad is tabbed with the FlaRakPz Roland.

 

 

Lineups:

 

Here are some possible lineups that could be formed with the vehicles in this sub-tree. The Beutepanzers are not included in this section because they would just slot into regular WWII lineups. 

 

Spoiler

vIJiNCK.png

Oqy9hMD.png

jkhQFeD.png

BesKloy.png

HMURUk8.png

 

Individual Suggestions For The Vehicles In This Subtree:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Other East German Vehicles Not Included In This Sub-Tree:

Spoiler

 

A non-exhaustive list of combat vehicles which the DDR used but I chose not to include:

 

SPW-40P (BRDM-1) family – armament and armour too poor for anything but BR 1.0

SPW-40P2 aka SPW BRDM-2 (BRDM-2) family – SPW-PSH fills the same role but is more unique, since it's not a Soviet design

SPW-60 (BTR-60) family – ditto

SPW-70 (BTR-70) family – ditto

SPz BMP-2(K) (BMP-2 command variant, usually didn’t use missiles) – although I suggested this one myself, I couldn’t find a good place for it in the sub-tree

mKPz T-54 (T-54 1951) – as the only possible 7.7 tank and a direct copy-paste, adding it seemed pointless though it could perhaps work as a backup to the mKPz T-54AMZ at 8.0, or supported by the 7.3 lineup at 7.7

mKPz T-54A -- I preferred the T-54AMZ over this one, although looking at the ammo choices it might have been able to squeeze in at 7.7 if the HEAT was left out (since it doesn't get APDS) 

9P111 (DDR variant of 9P110) – although technically unique, the changes are cosmetic and its armour and armament are functionally equal to the SPW-40 (9M14), which is truly unique

9K31 Strela-1 -- Another wheeled, amphibious SAM vehicle; this one lacks the range of the Osa-AKM's missiles, so I left it out, though it could slot in at a lower BR just like Germany has the FlaRakPz before the FlaRakRad.

Führungspanzer T-72K – A command variant of the T-72, on par with T-72M1 / T-72A IIRC; redundant for the tree, it would be a passable Squadron Vehicle

 

 

Sources:

 

Because of the quantity of vehicles suggested here, I'm limiting this section to just the vehicles that don't have their own suggestions and for the East German military itself. All the rest have several sources backing them up in their original posts, which I have already linked to above, so I see no need to duplicate those sources here. 


 

Spoiler

 

Nationale Volksarmee ("National People's Army" aka East German Army), Kasernierte Volkspolizei ("Barracked People's Police"; the NVA's paramilitary predecessor, which also operated tanks), & Volkspolize-Bereitschaft ("People's Police Alert Units"; a successor to the KVP: a paramilitary police unit which used APCs)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_People's_Army

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Forces_of_the_National_People's_Army#Equipment

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasernierte_Volkspolizei

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkspolizei-Bereitschaft

https://www.alternatewars.com/WW3/DDR_AFV/DDR_AFV_1950-1990.htm

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-5163.html

 

PT-76(K1)

http://www.militaertechnik-der-nva.de/Bestimmungsbuch/5gepKetFhrmitTurm/55/55.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT-76#East_Germany

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/ussr/soviet_pt-76.php

Tankograd 2006 PT-76 Soviet and Warsaw Pact Amphibious Light Tank

 

SFL-H 2S3M

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2S3_Akatsiya

http://www.militaertechnik-der-nva.de/Bestimmungsbuch/5gepKetFhrmitTurm/51/2S3M/2S3M.html

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/2s3.htm

https://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.php?armor_id=42

 

SFL-H 2S1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2S1_Gvozdika

https://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/ussr/2S1-Gvozdika.php

https://www.armyrecognition.com/russia_russian_army_vehicles_system_artillery_uk/2s1_gvozdika_122mm_self-propelled_howitzer_technical_data_sheet_specifications_pictures_video.html

https://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.php?armor_id=88

 

mKPz T-72 ("T-72" Object 172M-E)

http://www.militaertechnik-der-nva.de/Bestimmungsbuch/5gepKetFhrmitTurm/51/T-72/T-72.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-72_operators_and_variants#Former_East_Germany

https://arsenalen.se/en/katalog/stridsvagn-t-72m1-ural/

https://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.php?armor_id=22

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t72.htm

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/t72tank.htm

 

Fla-SFL 57/2 (ZSU-57-2)

http://www.militaertechnik-der-nva.de/Bestimmungsbuch/5gepKetFhrmitTurm/54/54.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZSU-57-2#East_Germany

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/zsu-57-2.htm

http://www.military-today.com/artillery/zsu_57_2.htm

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_ZSU-57-2.pdf (Surviving ex-East German ZSU-57-2s are evidence of their use)

 

Fla-SFL 23/4V1 (ZSU-23-4W1)

http://www.militaertechnik-der-nva.de/Bestimmungsbuch/5gepKetFhrmitTurm/54/54.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZSU-23-4_Shilka#Soviet_Union

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/zsu-23-4.htm

https://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.php?armor_id=14

https://www.armyrecognition.com/russia_russian_army_vehicles_system_artillery_uk/zsu-23-4_shilka_tracked_self-propelled_anti-aircraft_gun_technical_data_sheet_description_uk.html

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Zombificus
  • Like 2
  • Confused 2
  • Upvote 7
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so it's pretty much taking all what make the Russian tree good and put it in the German tree?

no way i could support that,

it's nether immersive, unique or needed.

  • Thanks 1
  • Confused 8
  • Upvote 9
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, CaID said:

so it's pretty much taking all what make the Russian tree good and put it in the German tree?

no way i could support that,

it's nether immersive, unique or needed.

? there are some unique vehicle and it doesnt matter as west germany and east germany cannot match other so it does not made german T.T stronger.

 

1+, i would suggest putting capture ww2 soviet tank for lower tier instead like t-34,t-60,t-35,kv-1,kv-2 / finnish BT-7,BT-42,T-26,T-28

Edited by Mako_Reizei1
  • Haha 2
medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Mako_Reizei1 said:

? there are some unique vehicle and it doesnt matter as west germany and east germany cannot match other so it does not made german T.T stronger.

few unic vehicles, little that deserve to be in the German tree and almost all for the Russian tree.

it would just make the German more of a ackward Russian tree to my eyes. i do not think Germany need it.

  • Confused 3
  • Upvote 3
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, CaID said:

few unic vehicles, little that deserve to be in the German tree and almost all for the Russian tree.

it would just make the German more of a ackward Russian tree to my eyes. i do not think Germany need it.

 

east germany is big thing back in 1950-90s and i would like it to be represent in someway,it would be fine to put it as subtree for russia if germany didnt exist. American tank/plane is already all over the place m48,m60,m4.m10,m41,m47,m26,m18 // f6f,sabre,f-104,p-47,f-4,f-5. russian made tank/plane in east germany subtree that will match alongside russia anyway wouldnt hurt.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do agree East Germany needs some more representation but the subject is a massive can of worms.  I honestly don't have any good ideas there.  Nice suggestion though.

  • Like 1
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

+however many vehicles are in this tree, I love the idea of a East German tree, maybe implemented as a "REACH RANK III TO RESEARCH THIS SEPERATE TREE BUT YOU CANT PLAY THESE VEHICLES WITH THOSE WITHOUT A CUSTOM LINEUP" Sorta deal..

:salute:

  • Like 2
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Technical Moderator

Absolutely yes! I'd love this as a sub-tree, South Africa style! +1 from me! :good:

  • Haha 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1 for all those vehicles...

 

we have too much with the chaina tree about copy paste vehicles, even if less than 10 of them have a small modification...

 

so, if you dont want let germany recieve what should get from GDR, just dont play with chaina and ask to remove that tree from the game... or just move a side, and go play the game in 90% of mixed battles with the same nations in both sides in tank RB with chaina filling the axis or allied teams with a popurry of the best vehicles of all the nations...

 

always the same biased POV with the allied playerbase...

Edited by zSektor92
  • Upvote 1
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, zSektor92 said:

+1 for all those vehicles...

 

we have too much with the chaina tree about copy paste vehicles, even if less than 10 of them have a small modification...

 

so, if you dont want let germany recieve what should get from GDR, just dont play with chaina and ask to remove that tree from the game... or just move a side, and go play the game in 90% of mixed battles with the same nations in both sides in tank RB with chaina filling the axis or allied teams with a popurry of the best vehicles of all the nations...

 

always the same biased POV with the allied playerbase...

I am okay with captured and bought vehicles if that country made a variant of them. I wouldn't support most of the Soviet stuff in the GDR tree for this reason.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

with the exception of the PSH +1 for all Tier I & II vehicles

As for the East German vehicles I'll only really support them if a separate Match maker is implemented for them though a couple of vehicles can be easily added regardless of the MM, the BMP-1A1 Ost is a prime example of that since the BMP-1A1 Ost is a Post war modification used by Germany for a short period before being sold off to Finland, Greece and Sweden

Another thing you forgot to mention is that the ex East German/German BMP-1A1's Ost that were in Greek Service were equipped with a roof mounted M2 Browning HMG and some had their original turrets removed and replaced with a ZSU-23-2 platform, essentially Germany can have a Unique SPAA BMP variant and the BMP-1A1 Ost can also have a 50.cal either when you research it or as a armor pack

Spoiler

1565700026_qsz2_828301.jpg&f=1&nofb=1 BMP1_SU23_6.jpg

 

medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, DMYEugen said:

Big +1 from me as long as there is a requirement for unlock. I think having to reach Rank III/IV in the Russian tech tree would be adequate, as most of these vehicles are Russian. This requirement would also incentivize the play of a different tree.  

so, to research the chaina tree you should have unlocked at least 50% of all the tech trees... even if you want to use the chaina Reserve vehicles????

 



 

medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, zSektor92 said:

so, to research the chaina tree you should have unlocked at least 50% of all the tech trees... even if you want to use the chaina Reserve vehicles????

 



 

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. China is a main tree, not a subtree. Therefore, it is available for research by default. What is suggested here is a subtree largely filled with vehicles that many would consider to be copy-paste from Russia. What I'm saying is German mains should not get access to effective Russian vehicles without first having experienced some of them in the original tech tree. Germany doesn't need these vehicles in the first place, only making their line-ups more formidable. So, I feel that it would be fair to impose a restriction on them as this would also make Germany the only nation with 6 vehicle lines.

  • Confused 1
  • Upvote 1
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On 29/07/2021 at 03:42, Mako_Reizei1 said:

? there are some unique vehicle and it doesnt matter as west germany and east germany cannot match other so it does not made german T.T stronger.

 

1+, i would suggest putting capture ww2 soviet tank for lower tier instead like t-34,t-60,t-35,kv-1,kv-2 / finnish BT-7,BT-42,T-26,T-28

Can we get the finnisch vehicles in the swedisch TT then?? And not the german.

medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BadassOscar94 said:

Can we get the finnisch vehicles in the swedisch TT then?? And not the german.

There are some Finnish vehicles in the Swedish TT like the L-62 and Ito 90m

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On 05/08/2021 at 15:20, DMYEugen said:

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. China is a main tree, not a subtree. Therefore, it is available for research by default. What is suggested here is a subtree largely filled with vehicles that many would consider to be copy-paste from Russia. What I'm saying is German mains should not get access to effective Russian vehicles without first having experienced some of them in the original tech tree. Germany doesn't need these vehicles in the first place, only making their line-ups more formidable. So, I feel that it would be fair to impose a restriction on them as this would also make Germany the only nation with 6 vehicle lines.

so, the chaina tech tree should be treated aswell with the taiwan and prc vehicles...

  • Confused 1
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, zSektor92 said:

so, the chaina tech tree should be treated aswell with the taiwan and prc vehicles...

You're just ignoring what I'm saying. China is a main tree and thus is available by default. If it were a subtree of Russia it would be different. You're trying to say that X = Y here. X is main tree and Y is sub tree. Main tree does not = Sub tree.

medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, DMYEugen said:

You're just ignoring what I'm saying. China is a main tree and thus is available by default. If it were a subtree of Russia it would be different. You're trying to say that X = Y here. X is main tree and Y is sub tree. Main tree does not = Sub tree.

and who is the genius tagging the German Democratic Republik  vehicles to be subtree?? in the Federal Republic of Germany ??? after the fall of berlin wall... all the GDR stuff went RIGTH INTO THE FRG... it didnt vanished under the table, or magically got teleported into the mother russhiaa... its from Germany?? it must be in Germany...

Edited by zSektor92
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, zSektor92 said:

and who is the genius tagging the German Democratic Republik  vehicles to be subtree?? in the Federal Republic of Germany ??? after the fall of berlin wall... all the GDR stuff went RIGTH INTO THE FRG... it didnt vanished under the table, or magically got teleported into the mother russhiaa... its from Germany?? it must be in Germany...

What are you even talking about? This is a suggestion about making a subtree consisting mostly of Russian vehicles in the German tech tree. This isn't about historical significance. It's about game balance. This subtree suggests that some of the most iconic Russian vehicles should be put into the German tree. Do you not comprehend how that could be a problem for the Russian tech tree's player pull? By imposing a the restriction I'm suggesting has no historical ties. I'm suggesting this restriction because German mains should not get access to powerful Russian vehicles without having first experienced their original tree. This is the end of this conversation. I'm not going to continue this pointless discussion.

  • Upvote 1
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...