tanks/vehicles T-72M1 (GDR) - German tree, Tier 6 MBT.

[I_hate_usernames 7]

2 hours ago, Private_Wolk said:

I'm aware of that fact. All variants (up to date) including the original M1 and M1IP saw combat in 91, few if none were lost to Iraqi T-72s. Interestingly enough the T-72A was found after the fall of the Iron Curtain to have been able to frontally bounce the TOW missile I can't say the same for the export versions unfortunately.

 

I don't remember reading anything about older variant M1's entering the Gulf war, I know they fought along M60's from the marines. 

[stefffff1871 2,448]

+1 yes a small GDR line would be interesting

[Stuhlfleisch 3,762]

On ‎10‎.‎05‎.‎2018 at 2:37 PM, stefffff1871 said:

+1 yes a small GDR line would be interesting

That tech tree... It´s... I have never seen so much beauty being portrait by a mere sheet... I am in awe. 

[stefffff1871 2,448]

15 hours ago, Stuhlfleisch said:

That tech tree... It´s... I have never seen so much beauty being portrait by a mere sheet... I am in awe. 

thanks a lot, but, thanks to gaijin, it isn´t possible anymore to realize this tree

[Stuhlfleisch 3,762]

On ‎14‎.‎05‎.‎2018 at 2:37 PM, stefffff1871 said:

thanks a lot, but, thanks to gaijin, it isn´t possible anymore to realize this tree

Partially at least, but many of those vehicles could still be implemented. Of course the two E-100 versions and the Ru 251 won´t be a thing in the regular tech tree, but for example all the wheeled tanks in rank one and the DDR tanks like the T-55AM-2 and the T-72M1 as well as the Wiesel TOW, Waffenträger Ardelt, all the Leo 1 variants etc could all still be a thing and I hope they also will be a thing.

[Royale_Griffon 14]

nope

[Nell_Lucifer 927]

On 15.05.2018 at 7:52 PM, Stuhlfleisch said:

Partially at least, but many of those vehicles could still be implemented. Of course the two E-100 versions and the Ru 251 won´t be a thing in the regular tech tree, but for example all the wheeled tanks in rank one and the DDR tanks like the T-55AM-2 and the T-72M1 as well as the Wiesel TOW, Waffenträger Ardelt, all the Leo 1 variants etc could all still be a thing and I hope they also will be a thing.

Well there is the E-100 with the E-100 turm that still can be implemented.

[Stuhlfleisch 3,762]

11 hours ago, Nell_Lucifer said:

Well there is the E-100 with the E-100 turm that still can be implemented.

That´s not really the E-100 turret... It´s fictional and since we alreay got the E-100 with the Maus turret, we will not see another E-100, since the players who worked for it will feel cheated.

[Nell_Lucifer 927]

2 hours ago, Stuhlfleisch said:

That´s not really the E-100 turret... It´s fictional and since we alreay got the E-100 with the Maus turret, we will not see another E-100, since the players who worked for it will feel cheated.

It's not fictional, that's the turret the E-100 was suppose to receive, the Alkket workers also stated they were waiting for the E-100 turm. As the Maus I turret was going to be replaced by the Maus II turm then its not likely the E-100 would use the Maus turret.

Why feel cheated if you got a better armored tank then the regular one? They could just make it premium (premium boost I mean) and no one should complain.

[Borotovas 4,500]

+1

[Stuhlfleisch 3,762]

Well, with shooting range episode 96 it seems like there is a very high possibility to see the T-72M1 in the German tech tree. Nice.

[Casper_duh 234]

I love the idea but if germany gets a T-72 - premium or not - sooner than the soviets I will cry... 

BTW the reason it would be awesome is that in several conflicts both sides operated T-72s so T-72 on T-72 action would be one of the few instances where meeting the enemy in the same tank as yours would be realistic(this is for RB and SB modes).

The situation would be similar with a DDR T-55 too.   

[Stuhlfleisch 3,762]

On ‎27‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 22:12, Casper_duh said:

I love the idea but if germany gets a T-72 - premium or not - sooner than the soviets I will cry... 

BTW the reason it would be awesome is that in several conflicts both sides operated T-72s so T-72 on T-72 action would be one of the few instances where meeting the enemy in the same tank as yours would be realistic(this is for RB and SB modes).

The situation would be similar with a DDR T-55 too.   

Yep, that would be great. I hope we will see the GDR stuff being added as soon as possible. maybe already in 1.81? :))

[*SGTBushong 104]

On 27/05/2018 at 16:12, Casper_duh said:

I love the idea but if germany gets a T-72 - premium or not - sooner than the soviets I will cry... 

BTW the reason it would be awesome is that in several conflicts both sides operated T-72s so T-72 on T-72 action would be one of the few instances where meeting the enemy in the same tank as yours would be realistic(this is for RB and SB modes).

The situation would be similar with a DDR T-55 too.   

 

Well they could do something similar to how they released the Kpz70 and Mbt70 and release it for both trees at the same time but with the slight modifications that make it unique.

 

They could also make a much worse descision and release it like the XM-1 c and gm where the German t-72 is premium and the Soviet one is regular. The t-72 should be in the regular tree however since it was historically used in good numbers and represents the nato/ussr division in the country.

Edited June 13, 2018 by *SGTBushong

[kev2go 5,112]

On 09/05/2018 at 20:07, I_hate_usernames said:

 

Just a quick note, the M1 Abrams we have in game is not the M1A1 that saw combat in the Gulf war. 

 

The T-72 was meant to be able to bounce 105's at the same ranges were they could penetrate them, which one of the reasons why the M1IP and the M1A1 were so fast to be developed. 

But it wouldn't have made a difference. really. The later ammo for the 105's like the M833 would already have penetrated any Soviet MBT at the time its introduction at long ranges . Even had US not deployed M1A1's  along with  M1A1 HA and only M1Ip's armed with m833  ( Vanilla M1's were no longer in activde duty service) the T72''s would still  fared just  as badly in those exact situations like the battle of 73 Easting.

 

In comparison its just that the M829 and M829A1 were simply even more overkill levels of good against what they were being shot at. Remember its not just the armor but like Warpact nations the asboulte best ammo supplied in iraq  was the 3bm15, with many of ammo being fired still being the 3bm9. 

 

Now  to look at it from gameplay perspective. anyone whos played the T64A knows the 3bm9 nor even 3bm12 could penetrate the m1 abrams except the turret ring and gun mantlet. 3bm15 that was added recently can pen the M1 via LFP but not the turret.

 

T72M1 would be better armored than a T64A, but still not invincible to M774 given that still has better performance than Dm23 ( Liscence built M111).  Even based on soviet testing 16mm addon plate onto the Hull only was supposed to stop M111 down to a certain distance. because Soviets requirement and advertisement was protection from 105mm down to 500m. But unlike a T64B in russian tree not having access to 3bm22 means not being able to lolpen opponents via point and click. 

 

other nations like the challenger 1 with l23A1 ( despiteUp stats) willgo through it with greater ease.

 

 

On 09/05/2018 at 00:41, Private_Wolk said:

+1

I said this before on the German ground forces thread and I'll say it here again the T-72M1 IS NOT THE SAME as the T-72A we're commonly used to seeing. The T-72A was rarely exported to any of the Warsaw Pact nations purely because the Soviets didn't want them reverse engineering its superior technologies.

 

It is like 98-99% the same as the T-72A that that was modded with 16mm HSS plate ( model 1983). Its just that the T72M1 went into production for warpact/export a few years later or so.

 

Even this is something admitted and something players can determine on thier own see the Topic OP.

 

Quote

 

The M1 variant is a downgraded version, the same variant that saw combat in the Gulf War with atrocious results. It could not hold its own against the M1 Abrams we currently have in-game at least at medium to long ranges. If Germany (FRG) does receive GDR tech I'm not too concerned it will alter the game balance significantly. 

 

 

This is a myth. Its not really downgraded.  Its just that the Quality controls of production standard were lower in Czechoslovakia and Poland where these tanks built, than vehicles like the T72A manufactured within the USSR ( OFC Russia was never known to have high QC control  within industrial  mass productions to begin with)

 

 

The Primary factor from having the T72M1 ever be a significant threat to the Abrams in gulf was was having inferior ammo supplied due to export restrictions. The T72M1 could still fire more modern ammo rounds had they beein allowed to be supplied. Besides that The tank itself ( T72M1 just like domesticT72A)  were  merely obsolete  technology by the time of the Gulf war compared to the M1 series of tanks ( M1A1 and especially  M1A1 HA in particular)  even had they got issued the latest most potent APFSDS available at the time.  They still No digital fire control system, and No Thermal imaging sights. which would have made target aquistion take longer and less accruate, but most importantly  blind as a bit in austere Weather conditions  such as Sand storms, and still very lacking in night fighting ability.

 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by kev2go

[WayOfTheWolk 1,573]

9 hours ago, kev2go said:

This is a myth. Its not really downgraded.  Its just that the Quality controls of production standard were lower in Czechoslovakia and Poland where these tanks built, than vehicles like the T72A manufactured within the USSR ( OFC Russia was never known to have high QC control  within industrial  mass productions to begin with)

 

 

The Primary factor from having the T72M1 ever be a significant threat to the Abrams in gulf was was having inferior ammo supplied due to export restrictions. The T72M1 could still fire more modern ammo rounds had they beein allowed to be supplied. Besides that The tank itself ( T72M1 just like domesticT72A)  were  merely obsolete  technology by the time of the Gulf war compared to the M1 series of tanks ( M1A1 and especially  M1A1 HA in particular)  even had they got issued the latest most potent APFSDS available at the time.  They still No digital fire control system, and No Thermal imaging sights. which would have made target aquistion take longer and less accruate, but most importantly  blind as a bit in austere Weather conditions  such as Sand storms, and still very lacking in night fighting ability.

 

 

 

I must disagree with your assertion. The T-72M1 was a poorly constructed vehicle even by Soviet standards. Prior users here have shown pictures depicting sand filler instead of granite between the composite slabs, this is not to mention substandard quality of steel used. Factories producing these export models would often rush through their production (weak welds, unreliable components)  resulting in disappointing combat capability. The T-72A was a much superior foe compared to the M1 variant in this regard as it did not suffer these specific setbacks. The only export model that could stand up to the Abrams (under realistic circumstances) is the T-72S which East German forces developed a few prototypes prior to the fall of the Iron Curtain.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Private_Wolk

[kev2go 5,112]

On 16/06/2018 at 21:50, Private_Wolk said:

I must disagree with your assertion. The T-72M1 was a poorly constructed vehicle even by Soviet standards. Prior users here have shown pictures depicting sand filler instead of granite between the composite slabs,

 

this isn't true all for all  t72m1 models there are cutaways of t7m1  tanks  evaluated in Sweden and they have quartz filler not sand.

 

 

Quote

 

 

this is not to mention substandard quality of steel used. Factories producing these export models would often rush through their production (weak welds, unreliable components)  resulting in disappointing combat capability. The T-72A was a much superior foe compared to the M1 variant in this regard as it did not suffer these specific setbacks. The only export model that could stand up to the Abrams (under realistic circumstances) is the T-72S which East German forces developed a few prototypes prior to the fall of the Iron Curtain.

 

exactly .. ... that's as I've said the only difference is quality control..... irrelevant for a video game.

 

gajin doesn't simulate reliability or power quality builds of a product

 

 

these tanks are otherwise so similar for a gaming perspective that even steel beast as a  simulation merged the t72a and t72m1 as a single tank. calling it the t72m1/a.

 

a t72m1 when its  assigned warpact allies and t72a when its ussr/Russia faction

 

your argument is further moot because as I've already explained even IRl a Soviet built t72a standards would have fared just as poorly in those same situations. t72a would still have zero chance of stopping the m829 and m29a1. nor would they be able to stop an m833 fired from 105mm. t72a still lacked thermal imaging sighte and did not have a fire control system.  1a40 is more of a sighting complex than being an actual fire control system.

 

no t72a model would stand up to the m1a1 abrams. it is inferior in every regard. the only thing that would give it a chance would be better ammo. but still then the abrams still has all the advantages in the book.

 

 

in game perspective the t72a/m1 will be better armored t64a but not by a whole lot and still inferior  protection to the t64b model 84 / t64bv. 

 

especially since t64b has 3bm22 and as a warpact ally the best apfsds ammo they would be limited to would be the 3bm15.

 

so the t72m1 would still top tier material but it's not as competitive as a t64b and will be an underdog compared to 97 a rams and to a larger extent against the type 90  or leopard 2a4 ( for those who play arcade)

 

 

as for the t72s that is an export t72b.

 

not as helpless as a t72a/m1 but would still be very  very vulnerable against m1a1 because only its turret could withstand m829. but not the hull ( and you know how Soviet tanks pop like firecrackers when penetrated in that region)  which could be penetrated pat 2km. with m829a1 silver bullet  t72b/t72s are able to be completely lolpenned.

 

sighting complex is updated by having a display of how much lead is needed compensate against a moving target. but still has to be done manually. again inferior to an actual proper fire control system that the abrams had. night vision capability is improved but still no thermal images.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by kev2go

[WayOfTheWolk 1,573]

12 hours ago, kev2go said:

 

this isn't true all for all  t72m1 models there are cutaways of t7m1  tanks  evaluated in Sweden and they have quartz filler not sand.

 

 

 

exactly .. ... that's as I've said the only difference is quality control..... irrelevant for a video game.

 

gajin doesn't simulate reliability or power quality builds of a product

 

 

these tanks are otherwise so similar for a gaming perspective that even steel beast as a  simulation merged the t72a and t72m1 as a single tank. calling it the t72m1/a.

 

a t72m1 when its  assigned warpact allies and t72a when its ussr/Russia faction

 

your argument is further moot because as I've already explained even IRl a Soviet built t72a standards would have fared just as poorly in those same situations. t72a would still have zero chance of stopping the m829 and m29a1. nor would they be able to stop an m833 fired from 105mm. t72a still lacked thermal imaging sighte and did not have a fire control system.  1a40 is more of a sighting complex than being an actual fire control system.

 

no t72a model would stand up to the m1a1 abrams. it is inferior in every regard. the only thing that would give it a chance would be better ammo. but still then the abrams still has all the advantages in the book.

 

 

in game perspective the t72a/m1 will be better armored t64a but not by a whole lot and still inferior  protection to the t64b model 84 / t64bv. 

 

especially since t64b has 3bm22 and as a warpact ally the best apfsds ammo they would be limited to would be the 3bm15.

 

so the t72m1 would still top tier material but it's not as competitive as a t64b and will be an underdog compared to 97 a rams and to a larger extent against the type 90  or leopard 2a4 ( for those who play arcade)

 

 

as for the t72s that is an export t72b.

 

not as helpless as a t72a/m1 but would still be very  very vulnerable against m1a1 because only its turret could withstand m829. but not the hull ( and you know how Soviet tanks pop like firecrackers when penetrated in that region)  which could be penetrated pat 2km. with m829a1 silver bullet  t72b/t72s are able to be completely lolpenned.

 

sighting complex is updated by having a display of how much lead is needed compensate against a moving target. but still has to be done manually. again inferior to an actual proper fire control system that the abrams had. night vision capability is improved but still no thermal images.

 

 

 

 

 

I never said it could stand up to the M1A1 Abrams I just said the M1 which is what we have in-game. The M1P would fare very similarly against the later versions of the T-72. By the way did you forget how the Tiger 2 used to have its armor simulated to depict the poor steel quality used in Germany during the later years of the war, it's very possible for Gaijin to model something like that. Sand was indeed used as a filler while in production; it was cheap, easily accessible and once again it was not intended to be as good as the actual Soviet tanks. Overall the T-72M1 would be a harmless addition to the German ground forces that would pose no major threat to the present meta. 

[kev2go 5,112]

 

 

quartz was used in the t72m1 productions. there are images of them out. t72m1 with quartz filler like the  Soviet produced t72a were produced. there is actual proof of this.

 

 

 

that is not sand.

 

ussr had no reason to intentionally provided "downgraded tanks"  when the liscense built version of the t72a the t72m1 was already obselesent with its protection against the latest NATO ammo of the time period.

 

poorer quality resulted merely from poorer quality control being enforced in those countries.

 

as for supposed poorer steel quality. one cannot use tiger 2h as a comparison because the quality of steel Germany was using may not be comparable to the quality of steel for the t72m1. without a documentation you don't know how much poorer it is from Russian steel or how it would compare to ww2 german steel.

 

therefore one cannot apply the tiger tiger 2H poor steel modifiers to the t72m1

 

t72m1 shouldnt be implemented with  modifiers  unless gajin has such information on hand or the playerbase digs up  necessary information for bug reports.

 

remember that the t72m1 that was being built  a few years after t72a productions had ceased. t72a ceased being produced in 1983. by 1984 onwards the t72b replaced t72a on the factory lines. whilst t72a 16mm addons plate bolstered protection against m111 or dm23. it was already extremely vulnerable to  the m833 as well as l23a1 and dm23.

 

nearing the end of the 80s the protection of t72m1 was even more obsolete than it was by the of 1983. and the t72m1 went into production circa 1986.

 

that alone made it a downgrade without ussr needing downgrade the features of the tank because it was not high tech in any way. the only  restrictions that got it in place limiting what ammo got exported. which in this case was not allowing any better apfsds than 3bm15 until the end of the cold war period.

 

but remember 3bm15 is not a lolpen round like 3bm22 in game. it can't penetrate the turret of an m1 abrams. it can only penetrate the hull , mantlet and turret ring. hull is not an ideal spot to shoot because it normally only results in driver killed and fuel tanks ignite but don't explode.

 

on the other hand unlike the t64b t72m1 will be vulnerable to dm23 (M111) at least between 500-600m distance

 

against m1 abrams at bit longer ranges given that m774 is better than dm23 (M111).

 

 

t64b > t72m1/t72a> t64a

 

  in gameplay it will behave modestly better protected t64a. 

 

Quote

Overall the T-72M1 would be a harmless addition to the German ground forces that would pose no major threat to the present meta. 

 

that not something in arguing against. 

 

in fact that's why I had this created this suggestion thread.

 

I'm not the one who needs convincing here  las some of these purists here who only want to keep German tree stricktly west german

Edited June 19, 2018 by kev2go

[Jocky_Strappers 1,230]

Germany already has enough captured tanks and planes (plus imported models) that have the benefit of not fighting Germany, therefore, giving them ridiculous matchmaking advantages that further hinders balance as of now and is a terrible idea.

[Admiral_Aruon 2,264]

3 hours ago, CaptainBallistic said:

Germany already has enough captured tanks and planes (plus imported models) that have the benefit of not fighting Germany, therefore, giving them ridiculous matchmaking advantages that further hinders balance as of now and is a terrible idea.

 

the irony here is that you said "matchmaking advantages" when referring to an export model T-72. its the poor man's T-64A.

 

if anything, the GDR T-72M1 and/or the GDR-unique modification T-72M1 Übergangsversion would HELP relive the MM at the former top tier and debuff the germans with a presumed BR of 9.0. assuming the criminally undertiered Leo 2K is bumped up to 9.3 or 9.7 at some point.

[Jocky_Strappers 1,230]

18 hours ago, Admiral_Aruon said:

 

the irony here is that you said "matchmaking advantages" when referring to an export model T-72. its the poor man's T-64A.

 

if anything, the GDR T-72M1 and/or the GDR-unique modification T-72M1 Übergangsversion would HELP relive the MM at the former top tier and debuff the germans with a presumed BR of 9.0. assuming the criminally undertiered Leo 2K is bumped up to 9.3 or 9.7 at some point.

you are missing the point here.

 

The weak armor is something Germany is already used to at that point but only then Germany has access to the most accurate gun in the game That has one less tech tree to worry about facing. When the 9.0 meta first came out the t64a was most feared, equal to or more than the kpz 70. With the t72m1 Germany can have that similar fear factor sporting a German cross and coupled with a Leo a1a1(under tiered as hell)/kpz70 lineup on top of that for the 9.0 meta. Adding this tank would do the opposite for the German tech tree than "debuff" it. What do other nations have to respond with at 9.0? france still gets a non stabilized gun and lacking armor, America is stuck with console spammed xm1 gm/c's with their mbt 70's or m60a1 varients, and Russia only just now has the t62m1 to compliment the t64a at the same 9.0 br, and Britain still has to deal with their MBT's having lackluster firepower that gaijin seem to excessively hate on for some reason. Don't even get me started on how German lineups for top tier are going to be further impacting others in uptier/downtier scenarios.

 

how in the world does adding increased sniping/camping capability to the German top tier supposed to "debuff" it?

[Deadmmann 386]

On 05/07/2018 at 05:33, CaptainBallistic said:

Leo a1a1(under tiered as hell)

It helps if you atleast have the Tank to Support that Sentence...

 

And just to Add toptier is just a Stupid Campfest on all sides... so... you know Germany is not allways the bad guy if something on the Allied way isnt running Round...

[Anju_Yuuki 983]

+1

 

[Jocky_Strappers 1,230]

12 hours ago, Deadmmann said:

It helps if you atleast have the Tank to Support that Sentence...

 

1

literally what.....

 

12 hours ago, Deadmmann said:

And just to Add toptier is just a Stupid Campfest on all sides

1

That is an extremely situational statement friendo not every map in a rotation is a variant of Kursk.