Czechoslovak Ground Forces Tech Tree

[Asghaad 2,476]

6 minutes ago, TADAMAT said:

but Czechia is going to buy and upgrade Leopard 2A7 soon, which would solve the problem.

you are assuming WAY too much

 

firstly we didnt decide what replacement armor IF ANY we will be procuring

 

secondly you are somehow assuming the Germans will sell use the most modern Leopard instead of lets say shifting old about to be decommisioned types down the line as is usually the tradition to do in situation like this ...

 

 

5 minutes ago, TADAMAT said:

You cant make a subtree from a nation that has over 120 original vehicles

120 original vehicles ... WHERE ? ...

 

copy/paste license built russian garbage isnt "original", you would have to look long and hard to get even DOZEN actual original vehicles that arent paper prototypes ...

 

[TADAMAT 77]

19 minutes ago, Asghaad said:

you are assuming WAY too much

 

firstly we didnt decide what replacement armor IF ANY we will be procuring

 

secondly you are somehow assuming the Germans will sell use the most modern Leopard instead of lets say shifting old about to be decommisioned types down the line as is usually the tradition to do in situation like this ...

 

 

120 original vehicles ... WHERE ? ...

 

copy/paste license built russian garbage isnt "original", you would have to look long and hard to get even DOZEN actual original vehicles that arent paper prototypes ...

 

 

bro your either trolling or i just dont know anymore.

 

1. Czech army will receive 15 Leopard 2A4 tanks for free from Germany to train its soldiers on them. Czechia will also buy 50 Leopard 2A7s and upgrade those Leopard 2A4s later.

 

2. Have you actually seen the techtree? i guess not, because there are not tens, not dozens, but over 100 original vehicles of all types. Original vehicle is a vehice that is either: produced and designed by the nation or its companies, vehicles used only by one nation and local upgrades of foreign vehicles/licenses. There are exactly 10 purely copy-paste vehicles in the tree, and these are: T-34/76, T-34/85, M5A1 Stuart, Pz. IV, Sherman Firefly, Panther, IS-2, IS-3, T-72 and T-72M1. Rest of the vehicles are either purely indigenous (88 vehicles) or upgrades of foreign vehicles (38 vehicles) (im ofcourse not going to write them all). These have either new gun, engine, missiles, laser rangefinder, LWS, new armor, new transmission or all at the same time, making them unique and thus original. You can ofcourse argue that things like Hetzer or Marder III arent Czech vehicles, because they were produced under German rule, but IMO these vehicles can be considered Czechoslovak and thus indigenous/original, because: they were made on Czechoslovak LT.38 chassis, they were designed by Czech engineers and they were produced in Czech factories by Czech men and after the war they were used by Czechoslovak army.

 

3. My proposal doesnt have any paper designs.

[Asghaad 2,476]

44 minutes ago, TADAMAT said:

1. Czech army will receive 15 Leopard 2A4 tanks for free from Germany to train its soldiers on them. Czechia will also buy 50 Leopard 2A7s and upgrade those Leopard 2A4s later.

 

14 A4s , the 15th is not a combat vehicle but recovery one

 

then they will START TO NEGOTIATE the future ..

 

first delivery of even the gifted ones is expected around third quarter of the year ...

 

so just as i sayd, above, we are getting old hand-me-downs and then the negotiations for upgrades and delivery of actual new vehicles will begin... so refurb and delivery of anything newer will be matter of YEARS ...

 

you cant just "we EXPECT" the nation to get something and just throw it at "tech tree" ... once its in our inventory THEN you can claim that we are operators of a vehicle not at a time when such adoption is months and years in the future

 

2. no vehicles between 1938 and 1945 are NOT Czech, also a slight mod of LICENSE BUILT vehicle is not original ... no swapping engine on a tank doesnt make it original ...

 

your "tech tree" is as is usual here made out of 3 things -

 

pre WW2 and WW2 GERMAN production

paper prototypes, one offs and mockups

copy/paste Russian hardware

 

there are few interesting vehicles BUT there arent that many to make up a whole tree AND vast majority of important vehicles are nothing more than copy of what already in the game in other tech trees ... and as S-199 in the Israeli tech tree clearly shows these copies are often WORSE than the originals

 

 

3.  ...

 

Škoda Š-I-SPO - 1 prototype - failed

 

MGC-1 - technological demonstrator- copy of the BVP - 1 prototype, why dont you use its official name - BVP-M1 CZ ? ... also vehicle from 2012 as 3.0 ? ...

 

OT-93 - pure export version of OT-64, never adopted by the military.

 

OT-65 - is NOT a Czech vehicle at all but HUNGARIAN D-442 FUG ...

 

OA Š-971 JARMILA - 3 prototypes ...

 

Cobra-K - is just BTR-70 copy ...

 

Škoda T-12 - 1prototyp

 

Škoda T-13m - 1 prototyp

 

 

etc etc etc

 

its all the same song and dance

 

early on its just deluge of 1 off prototypes and absolute failures - newsflash we had TWO actual tanks the Lt. vz. 35 and Lt. vz. 38 ... thats IT ...

 

in WW2 its slew of German vehicles + some crazy early post war stuff (Tiger I with an autoloader ... as a MEDIUM tank ... REALLY ? ... )

 

sprinkle in some 20th century vehicles that would fight early WW2 vehicles ... because they are THAT bad ...

 

and of course finish it off with copy/paste BMP here and copy/paste T-34/54/72 all over the place ...

 

 

 

 

Czechoslovak tech tree is NOT even REMOTELY viable, and its even WORSE than the ground tree in the air ...

 

 

stop trying to make things like this happen just because of some delusions of Czech grandeur where in reality we were nothing but a slave labor force to the soviets

[Asghaad 2,476]

or lets put it this way, lets create some lineups to see how they look

 

 

8.0 :

 

light wheeled:doesnt exist

light tracked: BVP-1M - oh look a MBP-1 copy ...

medium : T-54M ...

heavy : doesnt exist

TD : ahem does self propelled ARTILLERY piece even count ? id say no ...

SPAAG: doesnt exist ...

 

 

great lineup there, one BMP-1 copy and one T-54 copy ... fully fleshed out tech tree indeed ...

 

 

lets try different one, maybe something lower lets say 6.0 :

 

light wheeled : doesnt exist, so lets take 5.7 OT-64

light tracked: OT-62

medium : ahem ... Tiger 1 with autoloading gun ... as a medium ... a one off prototype that went nowhere ...

heavy : doesnt exist

TD : uhm, is that modified German Halftrack  ? ... yes yes it is a modified German halftrack ... at 5.7 ...

SPAAG : T-34/85 R10  ... 1 off prototype made by bolting AA gun to T-34 chassis ...

 

yet another very "viable" lineup ...

 

ok lets go higher, what do we have at  10.7 :

 

oh ... a T-72 copy ... and oh goody foreign production wheeled light  and ... thats it ... no SPAA, no tracked light, no SPG ... NOTHING ...

 

its NOT a VIABLE tech tree

Edited May 25, 2022 by Asghaad

[Mahiwew 529]

When a vehicle has changes made that make it differ in performance in game, as well as it is locally produced and not procured by others, I don't see why it wouldn't be considered unique. Sure it's not fully domestic, but honestly most equipment doesn't use components purely from one nation.

Regarding prototypes and technology demonstrators, this isn't an issue either.
Gaijin implements prototypes even to both major and minor trees on a regular basis, mostly as researchable vehicles even, and not only as events or premiums. Saying a tree isn't viable because it contains lots of prototypes, is an invalid argument.

Saying that pre-war the Czechs used German vehicles would be an incredibly false statement as well, as Czechoslovakia developed, procured and even exported it's own designs, not just in Europe, but even in Asia and Latin America. The Czechs even made vehicles specifically designed with export to certain countries in mind, like the Škoda Š-I-D, which was purpose made for export to Yugoslavia. 
Germany even opted to continue production of Czech hulls rather than their own for Pz.I and II, so it is a seriously wrong statement that the Czechs used German equipment pre-war.
It is true that perhaps in ranks III and IV they may potentially lack more unique vehicles in comparison to other tiers, but it is still among the top contenders for a new tree.

The statement that the local "copies" tend to be worse than the original products is also often not true, as they are usually upgrades of the received vehicles. But even then, the statement still admits that they perform differently from the vehicles they are based on, which is contradictory to your idea of them being "copies" in the first place

And regarding the final statement that people shouldn't try to make things happen due to "delusions of Czech grandeur" is a poor sport as well.
You can disagree with adding such tech tree, which is fine, but such pessimism is highly unnecessary when entering a topic that clearly shows good potential, especially in comparison to other ones. 
Nevermind the insult to people who are optimistic about the idea.

[DMYEugen 688]

If I had a nickel for every time the definition of "unique" was argued over in a suggestion for a new tech tree this month, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.

 

Either way, +1.

[Asghaad 2,476]

10 hours ago, Mahiwew said:

When a vehicle has changes made that make it differ in performance in game, as well as it is locally produced and not procured by others, I don't see why it wouldn't be considered unique. Sure it's not fully domestic, but honestly most equipment doesn't use components purely from one nation.

 

when you put a different engine in otherwise identical T-54 does it make it not T-54 ?

 

most of those "unique" vehicles had such breakthrough innovative changes made as ... new radio set, improven NCB protection and such ...

 

T-54 is T-54 ... and BMP-1 is still just a BMP-1 ...

 

10 hours ago, Mahiwew said:

Regarding prototypes and technology demonstrators, this isn't an issue either.

it IS a problem when its overused... one or two prototypes in a tree isnt an issue, dozens of one off prototypes and/or one off experimental modifications IS. WT is supposed to be somewhat grounded in reality not cartoonish caricature of alternate reality where every failed pipe dream is represented

 

10 hours ago, Mahiwew said:

Saying a tree isn't viable because it contains lots of prototypes, is an invalid argument.

no its not, its very VERY valid argument. one that is very unpopular in the echochamber topic like this but its valid nonetheless. Just trying to dismiss it like this proves its important and obviously hard to argue against with actual facts ...

 

10 hours ago, Mahiwew said:

Saying that pre-war the Czechs used German vehicles would be an incredibly false statement as well, as Czechoslovakia developed, procured and even exported it's own designs, not just in Europe, but even in Asia and Latin America. The Czechs even made vehicles specifically designed with export to certain countries in mind, like the Škoda Š-I-D, which was purpose made for export to Yugoslavia. 

no ffs, pre-war Czechs used theyr own designs, then when they were sold out by France and Britain to Germans everything became "German" up untill the end of the war...

 

and by the way some pre-war "projects" like the Škoda Š-I-D you just mentioned, were so BAD that even equipment starved Germans didnt use them ...

 

 

10 hours ago, Mahiwew said:

Germany even opted to continue production of Czech hulls rather than their own for Pz.I and II

uhh yes because PZ.I was basically a tractor with plates welded to it and Pz. II was horrible pile of garbage, the LT.35 was better in every possible way so why would they continue to produce theyr stopgap measure vehicles when they had already PZ III in production and were gearing to start serial production of PZ IV. And one reason they opted to continue producing Pz. 38 hulls throughout the whole war is because they proved to be extremely reliable, which is even when the armor on the tank become obsolete the hulls were still used for other purposes.

 

10 hours ago, Mahiwew said:

It is true that perhaps in ranks III and IV they may potentially lack more unique vehicles in comparison to other tiers, but it is still among the top contenders for a new tree.

anything between 1938 and 1985 you mean ... its not just intermediate tiers, the whole idea that a state that was under occupation and/or direct control of foreign forces for more than fifty years could be base for whole new tech tree is laughable.

 

MAYBE combined with Poland and Hungary to form the V4 tree you might have enough vehicles to fill the lineups... and it still will be nothing but copy/paste Russian tech tree after 1945 ...

 

10 hours ago, Mahiwew said:

The statement that the local "copies" tend to be worse than the original products is also often not true, as they are usually upgrades of the received vehicles. But even then, the statement still admits that they perform differently from the vehicles they are based on, which is contradictory to your idea of them being "copies" in the first place

 

an "upgrade" to DOWNGRADED license built copy ... again just look at the "Czech 109" which is post war production that is called to be worse than pre-war earliest ones and "the worst 109 in the game" ...

 

yeah its different allright, even E-1 is a good plane in comparison, thats the difference ...

 

you are also missing the point ... or intentionally trying to red herring the s**t out of this because it doesnt matter if the copy of T-54 has some cosmetic changes done to it, its still a T-54.

 

this being a case few times is not a problem, a lot of trees have US and Russian vehicles in them, the PROBLEM is when the WHOLE DAMN TREE is not hing but copy/paste

 

10 hours ago, Mahiwew said:

And regarding the final statement that people shouldn't try to make things happen due to "delusions of Czech grandeur" is a poor sport as well.

why ? Tech trees shouldnt be added to make some folks to feel patriotic ... this is OBJECTIVE matter not SUBJECTIVE ...

 

only question that should be asked is "will it be good addition to the game" which in this case is deffinitive and resounding NO ...

 

10 hours ago, Mahiwew said:

You can disagree with adding such tech tree

yes, for one simple reason, it would make the game WORSE

 

10 hours ago, Mahiwew said:

but such pessimism is highly unnecessary when entering a topic that clearly shows good potential, especially in comparison to other ones. 

no its entirely necessary to break up this circlej**k echochamber that is like perpetum mobile, going purely on enthusiasm of few individuals that agree with each other and cant stand anyone actually disagreeing with them ...

 

10 hours ago, Mahiwew said:

especially in comparison to other ones. 

the existence of even worse ideas does NOT make this one right, just less wrong ...

 

 

 

let me put it as simple as i can, for the tree to be viable it has to

 

1. be able to create actually viable lineups at every populated BR to not to downgrade the game for the rest of the people

2. such lineups have to be different to other nations, if all you do is to make Russia 3.0 copy of the same lineup you could get in the Russian tech tree, then its a pointlesss tech tree ...

3. has to have bulk of the tree in mass produced and FIELDED vehicles, prototypes and one offs are an EXCEPTION not the base of the tech tree.

 

 

and this "tree" fails on ALL THREE ...

[Mahiwew 529]

1 hour ago, Asghaad said:

when you put a different engine in otherwise identical T-54 does it make it not T-54 ?

 

most of those "unique" vehicles had such breakthrough innovative changes made as ... new radio set, improven NCB protection and such ...

 

T-54 is T-54 ... and BMP-1 is still just a BMP-1 ...

So the M4A1 75 and the M-51 Igman are the same?
I guess T-72M and T-72B3M are identical too then 
 

 

1 hour ago, Asghaad said:

it IS a problem when its overused... one or two prototypes in a tree isnt an issue, dozens of one off prototypes and/or one off experimental modifications IS. WT is supposed to be somewhat grounded in reality not cartoonish caricature of alternate reality where every failed pipe dream is represented

War Thunder strives mostly to get it's vehicles modelled historically accurately, but that's about it. Regarding balance and years in which vehicles were designed, there is little that is grounded in reality. Nevermind some of the maps that get played on, like Cargo Port, which would never see a full scale tank battle occur. Nevermind SPH's constantly engaging in direct fire and IFV's seeking out MBT's to blow up by shooting them in the side from only several meters away.
War Thunder is an arcade game, it is not a simulator. It does not require to be grounded fully in reality with the direction it headed in.

 

 

1 hour ago, Asghaad said:

no its not, its very VERY valid argument. one that is very unpopular in the echochamber topic like this but its valid nonetheless. Just trying to dismiss it like this proves its important and obviously hard to argue against with actual facts ...

Read above answer for the first part of this question.
Regarding the second part, there are no "actual facts" presented, only opinions. Perhaps you could present said "actual facts" before saying we don't have any 

 

1 hour ago, Asghaad said:

no ffs, pre-war Czechs used theyr own designs, then when they were sold out by France and Britain to Germans everything became "German" up untill the end of the war...

You yourself stated that they used German equipment pre-war in one of your previous answers, which was clearly incorrect 

 

 

1 hour ago, Asghaad said:

and by the way some pre-war "projects" like the Škoda Š-I-D you just mentioned, were so BAD that even equipment starved Germans didnt use them ...

The Germans didn't use many foreign equipment they captured for various reasons, but this does not mean that they would be "too bad to fit the game". Clearly there are some vehicles presented in this tree that definitely would.

 

 

1 hour ago, Asghaad said:

uhh yes because PZ.I was basically a tractor with plates welded to it and Pz. II was horrible pile of garbage, the LT.35 was better in every possible way so why would they continue to produce theyr stopgap measure vehicles when they had already PZ III in production and were gearing to start serial production of PZ IV. And one reason they opted to continue producing Pz. 38 hulls throughout the whole war is because they proved to be extremely reliable, which is even when the armor on the tank become obsolete the hulls were still used for other purposes.

Quite contradictory to your statement about Czech tanks being bad isn't it 

 

1 hour ago, Asghaad said:

anything between 1938 and 1985 you mean ... its not just intermediate tiers, the whole idea that a state that was under occupation and/or direct control of foreign forces for more than fifty years could be base for whole new tech tree is laughable.

Again, I advise you to look at the tree in question and work out the modfiications to the vehicles in question that would grant them different performance from the vehicles they're based on. NATO countries have also been more restricted in how to produce their armaments, yet they also get a ton of unique vehicles produced.

 

1 hour ago, Asghaad said:

MAYBE combined with Poland and Hungary to form the V4 tree you might have enough vehicles to fill the lineups... and it still will be nothing but copy/paste Russian tech tree after 1945 ...

A Polish and Czechoslovak tree could both work independently (Hungary wouldn't be able to), but together they would indeed be a wonderful addition. Still, saying all their vehicles are "copy/paste" would be highly mistaken, as I have stated what I perceive as the definition of unique before.

 

1 hour ago, Asghaad said:

an "upgrade" to DOWNGRADED license built copy ... again just look at the "Czech 109" which is post war production that is called to be worse than pre-war earliest ones and "the worst 109 in the game" ...

Be it good or not, it is definitely a differently performing aircraft from the other 109's. There is no reason why it shouldn't be in game.
As well as this is a specific case where a vehicle got made worse.
Sure, generally the Czech tanks were upgrades of worse models of tanks than the Soviets made for themselves, but they are still substantial improvements over the designs they are based on. I don't understand how this is so difficult to see.

 

1 hour ago, Asghaad said:

why ? Tech trees shouldnt be added to make some folks to feel patriotic ... this is OBJECTIVE matter not SUBJECTIVE ...

 

only question that should be asked is "will it be good addition to the game" which in this case is deffinitive and resounding NO ...

I don't understand how this isn't a subjective matter, as clearly there is a difference in opinions on whether it could work or not 
People's opinions may differ from yours, so saying there is a definitive answer on whether it would be a good addition to the game is not quite possible.
It is especially the case when a tree such as the Czechoslovak one has so many more additions in comparison to many other nations, that you can't just say the "definitive answer is NO"

I also don't see where patriotism comes into play here, as most people who come into this forum aren't from Czechia or Slovakia, they simply like the potential such tree would hold and would like to see it in game 

 

1 hour ago, Asghaad said:

yes, for one simple reason, it would make the game WORSE

How?

 

1 hour ago, Asghaad said:

no its entirely necessary to break up this circlej**k echochamber that is like perpetum mobile, going purely on enthusiasm of few individuals that agree with each other and cant stand anyone actually disagreeing with them ...

I am 100% certain that your angry typing will make everyone hate the idea of the tree 
Quite the hopeless endeavour, I don't see how being so toxic would make people want to get rid of such idea.

 

1 hour ago, Asghaad said:

the existence of even worse ideas does NOT make this one right, just less wrong ...

 

 

 

let me put it as simple as i can, for the tree to be viable it has to

 

1. be able to create actually viable lineups at every populated BR to not to downgrade the game for the rest of the people

2. such lineups have to be different to other nations, if all you do is to make Russia 3.0 copy of the same lineup you could get in the Russian tech tree, then its a pointlesss tech tree ...

3. has to have bulk of the tree in mass produced and FIELDED vehicles, prototypes and one offs are an EXCEPTION not the base of the tech tree.

1. Actually look at the trees in question and look at the trees in game. None of the trees in game have 100% flawless lineups at all BR's, not even the USA, German and USSR trees and this is clearly no issue to Gaijin or the majority of players of the game.

2. I don't see how different vehicles in this tree compared to the Russian one would lead to identical lineups, but I guess you see something that I don't

3. Where does Gaijin state this? Gaijin's additions should follow Gaijin logic, and given the trees that are present in game, there is no reason why a tree that consists of many prototypes would be an issue to them. Just look at France, Italy, Sweden. Sure, you can disagree with that, but you can't act like these are the rules that Gaijin follows, because clearly they are not 



Anyways, I will end my part in this conversation here, as clearly nobody will change their opinions on the matter.
Respond if you wish, but expect no response 

[Asghaad 2,476]

8 minutes ago, Mahiwew said:

So the M4A1 75 and the M-51 Igman are the same?

uhh so you are comparing the T-54A and T-54M of Czechoslovak origin that are basically identical to T-54 Russians use

 

with SHerman 75 to M51 where they cahnged few bits ... LIKE THE GUN ...

 

dude what ... of course a Sherman someone slapped 105mm gun on twenty years later ...

 

apples - oranges ... one is carbon copy of the original, the other is VASTLY different ...

 

14 minutes ago, Mahiwew said:

I guess T-72M and T-72B3M are identical too then

closer than you might think ... although 72M is just hodgepodge slapped on update on the T-72 in attempt to "modernize it and the Russian B3 was a bit more serious upgrade the main differences are in electronics, sights and external stuff like ERA ...

 

the gun is still the same 125mm

the hull is IDENTICAL on both

the difference in engine output is about 9% in favor of the Russian variant ... and thats about the biggest difference between them ...

 

20 minutes ago, Mahiwew said:

War Thunder strives mostly to get it's vehicles modelled historically accurately, but that's about it. Regarding balance and years in which vehicles were designed, there is little that is grounded in reality. Nevermind some of the maps that get played on, like Cargo Port, which would never see a full scale tank battle occur. Nevermind SPH's constantly engaging in direct fire and IFV's seeking out MBT's to blow up by shooting them in the side from only several meters away.
War Thunder is an arcade game, it is not a simulator. It does not require to be grounded fully in reality with the direction it headed in.

nice strawman pal, what do maps being "unrealistic" and players using vehicles outside theyr intended roles have to do with a national tech tree being slapped together from 1 off failed prototypes and copy/paste of other nations stuff ...

 

there were basically no domestically designed and produced vehicles, all that was being built was license soviet stuff with MINOR alterations ...

 

if we put lets say a 125mm gun in a T62 or something crazy like that i would gladly take it as "original" vehicle, not ehne the most we did to a T-54 was to increase the NBC protection and replace a radio ...

 

 

24 minutes ago, Mahiwew said:

Perhaps you could present said "actual facts" before saying we don't have any

 

actual fact : there isnt a single national tech tree in the game that is based on one off prototypes

actual fact : vast majority of vehicles in the game were actually fielded by the military of the nation in question

actual fact : one off prototypes are only used in desperate need and sporadically (Japanese air at the end of the WW2 would be the biggest example) not as BASIS of the tree from start to finish

actual fact : one off prototypes are usually relegated to premium status not make up core of the tech tree

 

 

28 minutes ago, Mahiwew said:

You yourself stated that they used German equipment pre-war in one of your previous answers, which was clearly incorrect 

 

no i did not ...

29 minutes ago, Mahiwew said:

The Germans didn't use many foreign equipment they captured for various reasons, but this does not mean that they would be "too bad to fit the game". Clearly there are some vehicles presented in this tree that definitely would.

except they did use basically anything they could get theyr hands on ... including lets say French tanks that were pretty garbage ... and yet you can see B1s with German markings on them ...

 

something even they wont touch especially at the start of the war that means it was borderline useless... and you want to base the early tree on stuff like that ...

 

32 minutes ago, Mahiwew said:

as I have stated what I perceive as the definition of unique before.

 

ah yes because few HP of engine performance and different radio is "unique" who cares the gun is the same, armor is the same, chassis is the same, crew compartment is the same, ammunition is the same ... clearly "unique" ...

 

34 minutes ago, Mahiwew said:

Quite contradictory to your statement about Czech tanks being bad isn't it 

again i NEVER sayd that ... LT 38 was maybe the best light tank of its time

 

what i did say is that LATER ON these tanks became quickly obsolete because they couldnt be upgraded in firepower nor armor so the Germans utilized theyr excellent hull, transmission and engine as basis to other vehicles, mostly SPPGs ...

 

i dont know if you have trouble understanding what im actually writing or what but please stop making up nonsense i never ever sayd in the first place

 

 

39 minutes ago, Mahiwew said:

Again, I advise you to look at the tree in question and work out the modfiications to the vehicles in question that would grant them different performance from the vehicles they're based on. NATO countries have also been more restricted in how to produce their armaments, yet they also get a ton of unique vehicles produced.

 

i did look at it and all i can see is T-54, T-72 and BMP copy/paste extravaganza ... same hulls, same guns, same ammo, same armor ... the differences to the originals are MINISCULE and would often come down to the stuff soviets denied theyr intended cannon fodder sacrificial wave  - Soviet vehicles will have better ERA, better ammo, capability to use guided gun launched missiles etc ...

 

oh right so in your opinion the difference between Abrams, LeClerc, Challenger,Leopard and Ariete are the same as difference between T-72M vs T-72B3 ... 5 VASTLY different tank types vs T-72 with dfferent paintjob, engine and few bolted on addons ...

 

 

45 minutes ago, Mahiwew said:

Be it good or not, it is definitely a differently performing aircraft from the other 109's. There is no reason why it shouldn't be in game

ask anyone who had to suffer grinding through that xxxx ... id bet most of them will disagree ...

 

46 minutes ago, Mahiwew said:

Sure, generally the Czech tanks were upgrades of worse models of tanks than the Soviets made for themselves,

so you DO get it ...

 

46 minutes ago, Mahiwew said:

but they are still substantial improvements over the designs they are based on. I don't understand how this is so difficult to see.

so how about giving few examples of how the Czech variants are SUBSTANTIALLY improved over the original design ?

 

lets see what you consider to be "substantial" ...

 

to me - the example above Sherman going from 75mm to 105mm gun was a great example of SUBSTANTIAL design difference...

 

49 minutes ago, Mahiwew said:

I don't understand how this isn't a subjective matter,

 

...

 

49 minutes ago, Mahiwew said:

People's opinions may differ from yours

 

thats literally definition of SUBJECTIVE ... as in based on OPINION and not a factual data

 

also an actual problem because addition of a tech tree to a game should be OBJECTIVELY good first, subjectively second

 

whats actually good for a game vs what you want ...

 

51 minutes ago, Mahiwew said:

I also don't see where patriotism comes into play here, as most people who come into this forum aren't from Czechia or Slovakia, they simply like the potential such tree would hold and would like to see it in game

nonsense, i cant see German, Italian or American coming here and go "gee that tech tree full of the stuff thats already in the game looks neat, i really want to grind through T-54 for the FOURTH TIME ..."

 

its safe to assume the vast majority of people interested in this "tech tree" are Czechs with nothing than "i want to drive under my nation in this game damnit" reason to support this abomination

 

 

54 minutes ago, Mahiwew said:

How?

1. worse matchmaker with even more difficult to put together teams - more unnecessary load on the server

2. mirror matchmaking where either Czechs will be matched with Russians making net zero difference because T-54 is just T-54 OR worse an opposing where T-54 will be matched AGAINST T-54 ... both types of matchmaking are worse for the game because of reduced variability in vehicles being matched

3. ANOTHER tree to grind from the scratch with untrained crews, increasing number of stock and underperforming vehicles in the matchmaker

4. even more confusion in the battles ... is that T-54 i see Russian and against me or Czech and with me .. whatever ill shoot it ... oh it was a friendly ... great improvement to the gameplay ... now imagine that nightmare in a sim with absolutely no markers ...

5. an incomplete tech tree like this with no workable lineups means increase in one death leavers and badly slapped together lineups where players try to fill holes with lower BR vehicles ...

 

1 hour ago, Mahiwew said:

I am 100% certain that your angry typing will make everyone hate the idea of the tree 

pal im absolutely calm, its just stupidity of pushing yet another copy/paste tree at all costs kinda baffles me. You wont see me getting "upset" over this because im pretty sure (or at lest i hope so) that devs arent crazy enough to entertain this idea ...

 

1 hour ago, Mahiwew said:

Quite the hopeless endeavour,

in an echochamber where everyone has to agree and if they dare not to they are called "toxic" for it ... yeah, doesnt mean i wont try to at least point out how bad this idea is...

 

1 hour ago, Mahiwew said:

Actually look at the trees in question and look at the trees in game. None of the trees in game have 100% flawless lineups at all BR's, not even the USA, German and USSR trees and this is clearly no issue to Gaijin or the majority of players of the game.

noone is asking for perfect lineups ... but getting at least VIABLE ones isnt that much to ask or is it ...

 

or is in your opinion one MBT and one light 0..3 BR lower with no SPG and no SPAAG a "viable" lineup in your opinion ? ...

 

1 hour ago, Mahiwew said:

I don't see how different vehicles in this tree compared to the Russian one would lead to identical lineups, but I guess you see something that I don't

thats the problem, you actually dont see how T-54 vs T-54copy at the same br is a problem ... and it IS A PROBLEM ...

 

1 hour ago, Mahiwew said:

Where does Gaijin state this?

have you ever even tried to look at actual tech trees in the game ?

 

1 hour ago, Mahiwew said:

Just look at France, Italy, Sweden.

why you dont take an easier example in Japan kinda baffles me ...

 

oh i know why because despite it being the only prototype heavy tech tree it also kinda had to be in due to it being major participant in WW2 and the fact this game originally was only aviation and that tech tree predates ground forces by just a few years ...

 

1 hour ago, Mahiwew said:

Anyways, I will end my part in this conversation here, as clearly nobody will change their opinions on the matter.

ah typical, like a kind in the sandbox shouting at the other then running away ... what you scared to actually have a discussion or something ?

 

1 hour ago, Mahiwew said:

Respond if you wish, but expect no response 

sure, and if you dont im taking it as a concession that you have no actual arguments about the matter and thus proved me right to argue the matter in the first place

[Thatz 637]

This isn't the place to be arguing about, whether or not you like that a lot of nations licensed built another nation's vehicles for themselves or purchased or were straight up lent the vehicles for testing or for use in actual combat. (since license built/lend-lease etc. are part of that nations military history and you cant just remove history)
Understandably everybody has their own opinion on that this point but we don't need to have almost a full page of comments arguing back and forth about it.

The truth of the matter is people still have the right to suggest license built etc. vehicles as long as they provide enough information which is the same as any vehicle suggestion. On top of that you need to remember to look at the previously suggested since there are only 6 Czechoslovakian ground vehicles actually suggested and there are 83 vehicles shown in this suggested tech tree. Hint: vehicles in tech tree suggestions aren't automatically added to the previously suggestion people need to make individual suggestions for each vehicle for them to be listed.

Instead of arguing over if this "Suggested" tech tree should have license built vehicles etc. or not, why not just start creating individual suggestions for the the vehicles you want to see in game that could possibly end up in it's own tree?

This is basically a verbal warning to just try to stay on topic on the suggestion itself. You can have conversations about the tech tree but there's no point in complaining about a nation getting a vehicle they used/tested etc. even if it is the 3rd/4th/5th or even 6th one in game. This again is a suggestion and may or may not reflect in game if the Czechoslovakia gets added to the game.

If you have any questions about suggestions or anything involving suggestions feel free to message either myself or another suggestion moderator.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Thatz

[TADAMAT 77]

Hello there. I´ve made another slight rework to my techtree: https://warthunderczechoslovakia.neocities.org/czechoslovak_ground_tree.html

 

Following vehicles have been added to the tree

 

PANDUR II with PAO APS (rank VII, BR 11.0)

Spoiler

Armament:
30mm Bushmaster II
2x Spike-LR
Max speed: 105km/h
Armor: can withstand fire from 14.5mm
PAO APS:
Can protect from HEAT projectiles
Can to some extent protect from kinetic projectiles, but fragmenst of destroyed shell still have enough penetration to destroy the vehicle most of the time

 

OT-64A Maljutka (rank V, BR 7.0)

Spoiler

Armament: Malutka ATGM´s (unknown number, but probably more than 4)
Max speed: 94km/h
Armor: max 10mm

 

MORANA (rank VI, BR 7.3)

Spoiler

Armament: 155mm cannon
Max speed: 105km/h
Armor: can withstand small arms fire

 

RM-51 (rank III, BR 5.7)

Spoiler

Armament: 130mm rocket launcher
Max speed: 60km/h
Armor: none

 

BVP-1MT (rank V, BR 7.3)

Spoiler

Armament: 30mm 2A42
Max speed: 65km/h
Armor: max 19mm

 

BVP-1 KD-V30 (rank V, BR 7.3)

Spoiler

Armament: 30mm 2A42
Max speed: 65km/h
Armor: max 19mm

 

Other changes

 

STROP moved from 7.0 to 7.7

 

KBV-PZLOK PANDUR II moved from researchable to event/squadron vehicle (replaced by PANDUR II PAO in researchable line)

 

 

 

Number of vehicles after the update:

Rank I: 17 researchable vehicles + 6 premium vehicles

Rank II: 14 researchable vehicles   + 2 premium vehicles

Rank III: 14 researchable vehicles + 2 premium vehicles

Rank IV: 16 researchable vehicles + 5 premium vehicles

Rank V: 18 researchable vehicles + 6 premium/event vehicles

Rank VI: 21 researchable vehicles + 3 premium/event vehicles

Rank VII: 17 researchable vehicles + 1 event vehicle

Total vehicle count: 142 vehicles     (which would make it 2nd largest tt in game, having 8 vehicles more then the German and just 1 vehicle less then Russian techtree)

92 indigenous     (65%)

40 upgrades     (28%)

10 copy-paste (5 of which were produced under license)     (7%)

[TADAMAT 77]

I´ve just removed some of the most controversional vehicles from my techtree and changed BR´s of some others: 

https://warthunderczechoslovakia.neocities.org/czechoslovak_ground_tree.html

 

Changes

MGC-1: removed completely from the tree

MGC-14.5: removed completely from the tree

BVP-1M: removed completely from the tree

OT-90: moved into premium line, changed designation to SPAA, BR lowered from 2.7 to 2.3

LV-157: BR lowered from 3.7 to 3.3

BVP-M1 CZ: BR rised from 8.7 to 9.3, rank changed from VI to VII

 

 

Number of vehicles after the update:

Rank I: 17 researchable vehicles + 6 premium vehicles

Rank II: 13 researchable vehicles   + 1 premium vehicles

Rank III: 13 researchable vehicles + 2 premium vehicles

Rank IV: 16 researchable vehicles + 5 premium vehicles

Rank V: 18 researchable vehicles + 6 premium/event vehicles

Rank VI: 20 researchable vehicles + 3 premium/event vehicles

Rank VII: 18 researchable vehicles + 1 event vehicle

Total vehicle count: 139 vehicles     (which would make it 2nd largest tt in game, having 5 vehicles more then the German and just 4 vehicle less then Russian techtree)

92 indigenous     (66%)

37 upgrades     (27%)

10 copy-paste (5 of which were produced under license)     (7%)

 

 

[TADAMAT 77]

Another update to my ground tree :))

https://warthunderczechoslovakia.neocities.org/czechoslovak_ground_tree.html

 

 

Following vehicles have been added to the tree

 

škoda 6mtp6 z1 (Rank I, BR 1.0)

Spoiler

Škoda 6MTP6 Z1
Armament: 40mm Z1
Max speed: 45km/h
Armor: none

 

OT-64 VYDRA-I (Rank II, BR 2.7)

Spoiler

Armament: 23mm NS-23
Max speed: 94km/h
Armor: max 10mm

 

T-72MP (Rank VII, BR 10.0, Squadron)

Spoiler

Armament: 125mm 2A46
Max speed: 65km/h
Armor:
comparable to Moderna
Kontakt-5 can´t defeat tandem charges

 

Aligator 4x4 Konkurs (Rank VI, BR 8.7)

Spoiler

Armament: Konkurs ATGM´s (unknown ammount)
Max speed: 135km/h
Armor: can protect from 50.cal

 

vz.18/47 N panther (Rank III, BR 4.3, Premium)

Spoiler

Armament: 150mm vz.18/47 N
Max speed: 30km/h
Armor: max 100mm

(1 prototype was made, but i couldn´t find any pictures of it on the internet)

 

 

 

Other changes

OT-64A Skot - rank changed from III to II, BR from 3.0 to 2.7

Škoda Š-I-J - foldered with Škoda Š-I-D

T-72M1-A - BR changed from 10.3 to 10.0

T-72 Scarab - changed from researchable to event vehicle, BR changed from 10.3 to 10.0

T-72M2 Moderna early/late - changed places with T-72M3 and T-72M4, early - BR changed from 10.7 to 10.0, late - BR changed from 11.0 to 10.3

T-72M4 - no longer in folder with T-72M3

OT-62B - BR changed from 5.3 to 5.0

 

Number of vehicles after the update:

Rank I: 18 researchable vehicles + 6 premium vehicles

Rank II: 15 researchable vehicles   + 1 premium vehicles

Rank III: 12 researchable vehicles + 3 premium vehicles

Rank IV: 16 researchable vehicles + 5 premium vehicles

Rank V: 18 researchable vehicles + 6 premium/event vehicles

Rank VI: 21 researchable vehicles + 3 premium/event vehicles

Rank VII: 17 researchable vehicles + 3 event vehicle

Total vehicle count: 144 vehicles     (making it the largest tt in game, having 1 vehicle more then the USSR tree)

95 indigenous     (66%)

39 upgrades     (27%)

10 copy-paste (5 of which were produced under license)     (7%)

[Colerend 225]

On 26/05/2022 at 15:25, Asghaad said:

closer than you might think ... although 72M is just hodgepodge slapped on update on the T-72 in attempt to "modernize it and the Russian B3 was a bit more serious upgrade the main differences are in electronics, sights and external stuff like ERA ...

 

the gun is still the same 125mm

the hull is IDENTICAL on both

the difference in engine output is about 9% in favor of the Russian variant ... and thats about the biggest difference between them

Never have I seen someone being soo wrong. 

On 10/09/2022 at 20:28, TADAMAT said:

Another update to my ground tree :))

https://warthunderczechoslovakia.neocities.org/czechoslovak_ground_tree.html

 

 

Following vehicles have been added to the tree

 

škoda 6mtp6 z1 (Rank I, BR 1.0)

Reveal hidden contents

Škoda 6MTP6 Z1
Armament: 40mm Z1
Max speed: 45km/h
Armor: none

 

OT-64 VYDRA-I (Rank II, BR 2.7)

Reveal hidden contents

Armament: 23mm NS-23
Max speed: 94km/h
Armor: max 10mm

 

T-72MP (Rank VII, BR 10.0, Squadron)

Reveal hidden contents

Armament: 125mm 2A46
Max speed: 65km/h
Armor:
comparable to Moderna
Kontakt-5 can´t defeat tandem charges

 

Aligator 4x4 Konkurs (Rank VI, BR 8.7)

Reveal hidden contents

Armament: Konkurs ATGM´s (unknown ammount)
Max speed: 135km/h
Armor: can protect from 50.cal

 

vz.18/47 N panther (Rank III, BR 4.3, Premium)

Reveal hidden contents

Armament: 150mm vz.18/47 N
Max speed: 30km/h
Armor: max 100mm

(1 prototype was made, but i couldn´t find any pictures of it on the internet)

 

 

 

Other changes

OT-64A Skot - rank changed from III to II, BR from 3.0 to 2.7

Škoda Š-I-J - foldered with Škoda Š-I-D

T-72M1-A - BR changed from 10.3 to 10.0

T-72 Scarab - changed from researchable to event vehicle, BR changed from 10.3 to 10.0

T-72M2 Moderna early/late - changed places with T-72M3 and T-72M4, early - BR changed from 10.7 to 10.0, late - BR changed from 11.0 to 10.3

T-72M4 - no longer in folder with T-72M3

OT-62B - BR changed from 5.3 to 5.0

 

Number of vehicles after the update:

Rank I: 18 researchable vehicles + 6 premium vehicles

Rank II: 15 researchable vehicles   + 1 premium vehicles

Rank III: 12 researchable vehicles + 3 premium vehicles

Rank IV: 16 researchable vehicles + 5 premium vehicles

Rank V: 18 researchable vehicles + 6 premium/event vehicles

Rank VI: 21 researchable vehicles + 3 premium/event vehicles

Rank VII: 17 researchable vehicles + 3 event vehicle

Total vehicle count: 144 vehicles     (making it the largest tt in game, having 1 vehicle more then the USSR tree)

95 indigenous     (66%)

39 upgrades     (27%)

10 copy-paste (5 of which were produced under license)     (7%)

I think you did a great job creating this tree. You should create a separate suggestion for your tech tree proposition. 

[Kminek246 123]

As a Czech man i would love to see this in WT +1

[G1label 143]

On 10/09/2022 at 14:28, TADAMAT said:

Another update to my ground tree :))

https://warthunderczechoslovakia.neocities.org/czechoslovak_ground_tree.html

 

 

Following vehicles have been added to the tree

 

škoda 6mtp6 z1 (Rank I, BR 1.0)

Reveal hidden contents

Škoda 6MTP6 Z1
Armament: 40mm Z1
Max speed: 45km/h
Armor: none

 

OT-64 VYDRA-I (Rank II, BR 2.7)

Reveal hidden contents

Armament: 23mm NS-23
Max speed: 94km/h
Armor: max 10mm

 

T-72MP (Rank VII, BR 10.0, Squadron)

Reveal hidden contents

Armament: 125mm 2A46
Max speed: 65km/h
Armor:
comparable to Moderna
Kontakt-5 can´t defeat tandem charges

 

Aligator 4x4 Konkurs (Rank VI, BR 8.7)

Reveal hidden contents

Armament: Konkurs ATGM´s (unknown ammount)
Max speed: 135km/h
Armor: can protect from 50.cal

 

vz.18/47 N panther (Rank III, BR 4.3, Premium)

Reveal hidden contents

Armament: 150mm vz.18/47 N
Max speed: 30km/h
Armor: max 100mm

(1 prototype was made, but i couldn´t find any pictures of it on the internet)

 

 

 

Other changes

OT-64A Skot - rank changed from III to II, BR from 3.0 to 2.7

Škoda Š-I-J - foldered with Škoda Š-I-D

T-72M1-A - BR changed from 10.3 to 10.0

T-72 Scarab - changed from researchable to event vehicle, BR changed from 10.3 to 10.0

T-72M2 Moderna early/late - changed places with T-72M3 and T-72M4, early - BR changed from 10.7 to 10.0, late - BR changed from 11.0 to 10.3

T-72M4 - no longer in folder with T-72M3

OT-62B - BR changed from 5.3 to 5.0

 

Number of vehicles after the update:

Rank I: 18 researchable vehicles + 6 premium vehicles

Rank II: 15 researchable vehicles   + 1 premium vehicles

Rank III: 12 researchable vehicles + 3 premium vehicles

Rank IV: 16 researchable vehicles + 5 premium vehicles

Rank V: 18 researchable vehicles + 6 premium/event vehicles

Rank VI: 21 researchable vehicles + 3 premium/event vehicles

Rank VII: 17 researchable vehicles + 3 event vehicle

Total vehicle count: 144 vehicles     (making it the largest tt in game, having 1 vehicle more then the USSR tree)

95 indigenous     (66%)

39 upgrades     (27%)

10 copy-paste (5 of which were produced under license)     (7%)

That panther spg looks like one of those late war german waffentrager designs.

[TADAMAT 77]

21 hours ago, Colerend said:

I think you did a great job creating this tree. You should create a separate suggestion for your tech tree proposition. 

Thanks. I´ve actually tried to make my ground tree separated from this suggestion, but it was against the rules, so i had to add it into a comment under this proposal. My air, heli and naval proposals are separated though, because they have not been done before.

[Colerend 225]

On 13/09/2022 at 19:26, TADAMAT said:

Thanks. I´ve actually tried to make my ground tree separated from this suggestion, but it was against the rules, so i had to add it into a comment under this proposal. My air, heli and naval proposals are separated though, because they have not been done before.

Good to know!

[TADAMAT 77]

Added some new vehicles to my proposal and changed BR and position of one tank

https://warthunderczechoslovakia.neocities.org/czechoslovak_ground_tree.html

 

Following vehicles have been added to the techtree

 

Škoda Š-I-D (Rank I, BR 1.3, premium)

Spoiler

Výzbroj: 37mm Škoda A3
Maximální rychlost: 41 km/h
Pancéřování: max. 22mm

 

 

Viktor SPAA (Rank III, BR 4.0)

Spoiler

Armament: 2x 14.5mm KPVT
Max speed: around 150km/h
Armor: none

 

 

T-72 Avenger (Rank VII, BR 10.0, event)

Spoiler

Armament: 125mm 2A46
Max speed: 60km/h
Armor: similiar to the Moderna
DYNA ERA can defeat tandem charges

3rd gen thermals for gunner

 

 

Other changes

T-72 Scarab - moved from premium line to researchable, Rank changed from VII to VI, BR lowered from 10.0 to 9.7, foldered with T-72 and T-72M1

Škoda Š-I-D - renamed to Škoda Š-I-d

Škoda Š-I-J - renamed to Škoda Š-I-j

 

 

Number of vehicles after the update:

Rank I: 18 researchable vehicles + 7 premium vehicles

Rank II: 15 researchable vehicles   + 1 premium vehicles

Rank III: 13 researchable vehicles + 3 premium vehicles

Rank IV: 16 researchable vehicles + 5 premium vehicles

Rank V: 18 researchable vehicles + 6 premium/event vehicles

Rank VI: 22 researchable vehicles + 3 premium/event vehicles

Rank VII: 17 researchable vehicles + 3 event vehicle

Total vehicle count: 147 vehicles     (making it the largest tt in game, having 2 vehicles more then the USSR tree)

97 indigenous     (66%)

40 upgrades     (27%)

10 copy-paste (5 of which were produced under license)     (7%)

Edited November 16, 2022 by TADAMAT

[Mahiwew 529]

1 hour ago, TADAMAT said:

Added some new vehicles to my proposal and changed BR and position of one tank

https://warthunderczechoslovakia.neocities.org/czechoslovak_ground_tree.html

 

Following vehicles have been added to the techtree

 

Škoda Š-I-D (Rank I, BR 1.3, premium)

Reveal hidden contents

Výzbroj: 37mm Škoda A3
Maximální rychlost: 41 km/h
Pancéřování: max. 22mm

 

 

Viktor SPAA (Rank III, BR 4.0)

Reveal hidden contents

Armament: 2x 14.5mm KPVT
Max speed: around 150km/h
Armor: none

 

 

T-72 Avenger (Rank VII, BR 10.0, event)

Reveal hidden contents

Armament: 125mm 2A46
Max speed: 60km/h
Armor: similiar to the Moderna
DYNA ERA can defeat tandem charges

3rd gen thermals for gunner

 

 

Other changes

T-72 Scarab - moved from premium line to researchable, Rank changed from VII to VI, BR lowered from 10.0 to 9.7, foldered with T-72 and T-72M1

Škoda Š-I-D - renamed to Škoda Š-I-d

Škoda Š-I-J - renamed to Škoda Š-I-j

 

 

Number of vehicles after the update:

Rank I: 18 researchable vehicles + 7 premium vehicles

Rank II: 15 researchable vehicles   + 1 premium vehicles

Rank III: 13 researchable vehicles + 3 premium vehicles

Rank IV: 16 researchable vehicles + 5 premium vehicles

Rank V: 18 researchable vehicles + 6 premium/event vehicles

Rank VI: 22 researchable vehicles + 3 premium/event vehicles

Rank VII: 17 researchable vehicles + 3 event vehicle

Total vehicle count: 147 vehicles     (making it the largest tt in game, having 2 vehicles more then the USSR tree)

97 indigenous     (66%)

40 upgrades     (27%)

10 copy-paste (5 of which were produced under license)     (7%)

Š I d hardly warrants 1.0, let alone anything higher

[TADAMAT 77]

17 hours ago, Mahiwew said:

Š I d hardly warrants 1.0, let alone anything higher

I have to disagree. 

 

Škoda Š-I-D is actually slightly superior to both L3/33 CC and M11/39 in the Italian tree, having much better gun than both of these, much better armor than the 1st one and better HP/ton ratio than the 2nd one.

 

I actually find the Škoda Š-I-D comparable to the Italian 47/32 L40, with Škoda having much superior HP/ton ratio, comparable gun and not being open-top, while its cons would be slightly worse armor and lower top speed.

[Mahiwew 529]

21 minutes ago, TADAMAT said:

I have to disagree. 

 

Škoda Š-I-D is actually slightly superior to both L3/33 CC and M11/39 in the Italian tree, having much better gun than both of these, much better armor than the 1st one and better HP/ton ratio than the 2nd one.

 

I actually find the Škoda Š-I-D comparable to the Italian 47/32 L40, with Škoda having much superior HP/ton ratio, comparable gun and not being open-top, while its cons would be slightly worse armor and lower top speed.

Would you mind sharing the gun statistics that you have for the Š-I-d?
The ones I had showed them to be quite terrible.

I think that comparing it to L3 is unfair as well, as the L3 is completely worthless in game. 
Compared to M11/39 it'd be practically identical performance wise.

[thethrill820@live 292]

+1, looks like a great tree to have.

[TADAMAT 77]

5 hours ago, Mahiwew said:

Would you mind sharing the gun statistics that you have for the Š-I-d?
The ones I had showed them to be quite terrible.

I think that comparing it to L3 is unfair as well, as the L3 is completely worthless in game. 
Compared to M11/39 it'd be practically identical performance wise.

Škoda Š-I-D has the exact same gun as the LT. 35 (called Pz.35(t) in the game) and its cannon has penetration of 55mm point blank, 40mm from 500 meters and 30mm from 1km if it uses regular APHE

(Czechoslovakia probably didnt use APCR, but if they did, then the APCR round would have around 81mm point blank, 45mm from 500 meters and 24mm from 1km)

 

You can find the penetration statistics on this page (scroll down to the ammunition): https://wiki.warthunder.com/Pz.35(t)

[TADAMAT 77]

Added some toptier tanks and moved/removed some tanks to ease the grind:

https://warthunderczechoslovakia.neocities.org/czechoslovak_ground_tree.html

 

Following vehicles have been added to the techtree

 

Leopard 2A4 (rank VI, BR 10.0)

Spoiler

Armament: 120mm Rh120 L/44
Max speed: 72km/h
Armor:
500mm against APFSDS
1100mm against HEAT

 

 

CV90 MkIV CZ (Rank VII, BR 10.7)

Spoiler

Armament:
30mm Bushmaster II
2x Spike-LR
Max speed: 70km/h
Armor: can protect from 30mm APFSDS
APS: Iron Fist

 

 

CV90 MkIV SK (Rank VII, BR 11.0)

Spoiler

Armament:
35mm Bushmaster III
2x Spike-LR
Max speed: 70km/h
Armor: can protect from 30mm APFSDS
APS: Iron Fist

 

 

CV90 CZr (Rank VII, BR 10.7, event)

Spoiler

Armament:
30mm Bushmaster II
2x Spike-LR
Max speed: 70km/h
Armor: can protect from 30mm APFSDS
APS: Iron Fist

 

 

Vehicles removed from the tree

T-72

T-72M3 - now, the T-72M3 will be the base version of T-72M4. Players will now need to research a modification to unlock new engine and transmission to upgrade from T-72M3 to T-72M4, similiarly to T-72B3 being upgraded with new engine in-game. The vehicle will either retain the T-72M4 name or the name will change after the instalation of upgrade

 

 

Other changes

T-55AM2 Kladivo - moved from researchable to premium

T-55AM2 DYNA - now foldered with T-55AM2B Kladivo

BVP-M1 CZ - moved from rank VII to VI

 

 

Number of vehicles after the update:

Rank I: 18 researchable vehicles + 7 premium vehicles

Rank II: 15 researchable vehicles   + 1 premium vehicles

Rank III: 13 researchable vehicles + 3 premium vehicles

Rank IV: 16 researchable vehicles + 5 premium vehicles

Rank V: 18 researchable vehicles + 6 premium/event vehicles

Rank VI: 22 researchable vehicles + 4 premium/event vehicles

Rank VII: 17 researchable vehicles + 4 event vehicle

Total vehicle count: 149 vehicles     (making it the largest tt in game, having 3 vehicles more then the USSR tree)

97 indigenous     (65%)

42 upgrades     (28%)

10 copy-paste (4 of which were produced under license)     (7%)