Posted October 28, 2021 Summary of arguments and rebuttals Picture of the JDAM on the F-4EJ Kai? it is just for display. Is the ADTW's F-4EJ's new antenna is GPS antenna? It's been installed since 1988, so that is not a GPS antenna. A picture of the F-4EJ Kai with the XGCS-2? Just performing aerodynamics and separation tests with dummy bomb, not real bomb. F-4EJ Kai's GCS-1? No ground attack ability due to seeker's performance F-4EJ Kai's AGM-62 or AGM-65? When producing the F-4EJ, all equipment was removed, and no functions were added even in EJ Kai. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... The_Baron3 494 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 10 hours ago, Noveos_Republic said: Dang bro I thought Gaijin said Japan was in top four for revenue? So why do they keep neglecting us Didn't Japan get one of the top 3 top tier aircraft in game (if not THE best 11.0 currently in game) just last update? 1 4 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... MD_mudhen 31 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 1 minute ago, The_Baron3 said: Didn't Japan get one of the top 3 top tier aircraft in game (if not THE best 11.0 currently in game) just last update? thats for air rb and yes its very strong. Its the FOTM vehicle but its not often japan gets to be the meta. Even then in regards to ground rb which is a entirely different matter, japan will never have guided air to ground munitons while every other nation will sooner or later get them 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Nacho5944 181 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 (edited) Hey, has anybody here found something called the XGCS-2? Apparently it could technically be used on the EJ Kai, even if it was just during testing. Maybe it might be something worth researching? https://geolog.mydns.jp/www.geocities.co.jp/Technopolis-Mars/9578/xgcs2.html Edited October 22, 2021 by Nacho5944 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Steppe Ghost 4 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 2 hours ago, Nacho5944 said: Hey, has anybody here found something called the XGCS-2? Apparently it could technically be used on the EJ Kai, even if it was just during testing. Maybe it might be something worth researching? https://geolog.mydns.jp/www.geocities.co.jp/Technopolis-Mars/9578/xgcs2.html Interesting, but maybe so sekrit that gaijin wont add it This website (in russian) has more pictures and sources https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/154844-japonskie-upravljaemye-aviacionnye-bomby/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... AngelPipes 31 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 11 hours ago, _FraiN said: thats for air rb and yes its very strong. Its the FOTM vehicle but its not often japan gets to be the meta. Even then in regards to ground rb which is a entirely different matter, japan will never have guided air to ground munitons while every other nation will sooner or later get them Every other nation alredy have them, only japan not Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Technical Moderator Optical_Ilyushin 5,554 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 6 hours ago, Ghost2552 said: Interesting, but maybe so sekrit that gaijin wont add it This website (in russian) has more pictures and sources https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/154844-japonskie-upravljaemye-aviacionnye-bomby/ I've noticed there's a book shown in this thread describing the XGCS-2 as a general purpose bomb. It might serve well to find this particular book, as it looks like a promising system worth considering. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Joseph_Gadzin 19 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 On 20/10/2021 at 15:53, LordMustang said: The JDAM will be removed from F-4EJ/Kai. More details should follow later. Regarding the GCS-1, there is no information that it can succesfully detect and track ground targets. Detecting a heat signature of a ground target can be significantly more difficult than detecting ships. If there is information regarding this, or more specifics regarding the seeker performance, it could be considered. So add it aim9j than. If German Phantom can have tnem I see no problem for Japanese Phantoms to have them too 1 1 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... DragoShenron@psn 48 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, minibebra said: Every other nation alredy have them, only japan not What Please name which Italian aircraft has guided air-to-ground bombs because it must be some mysterious hidden vehicle I’ve never seen, since the G.91YS and the F-104S can only carry regular bombs and rockets Edited October 22, 2021 by DragoShenron@psn 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... 伊地知虹夏正在点国策 1,288 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 3 minutes ago, DragoShenron@psn said: What Please name which Italian aircraft has guided air-to-ground bombs because it must be some mysterious hidden vehicle I’ve never seen, since the G.91YS and the F-104S can only carry regular bombs and rockets The Premium G91 R4 if we're just talking about guided AGM's 34 minutes ago, Joseph_Gadzin said: So add it aim9j than. If German Phantom can have tnem I see no problem for Japanese Phantoms to have them too The German Phantom could carry them, they just didn't buy them IIRC ? A better comparison would be the Radwagen 90, there is no evidence that the turret worked, there is even evidence that it couldn't (the museum director) yet it's here. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... DragoShenron@psn 48 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Ens_Reefen_Ronny said: The Premium G91 R4 if we're just talking about guided AGM's I mean in the regular tech tree, that I can research and unlock naturally Not a premium I’ve to spend money to get I’m aware of the R/4 with AS-20 NORD but that’s 9k GE, if I’ve 0 GE I’d have to buy the 10k pack at 50 quid Do you see where I’m coming from? Edited October 22, 2021 by DragoShenron@psn 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... xXGaijinedXx 499 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 (edited) Can we stop with the off-topic discussion @DragoShenron@psn, this is not the Italian sub-forum. Edited October 22, 2021 by xXGaijinedXx Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... DragoShenron@psn 48 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, xXGaijinedXx said: Can we stop with off-topic discussion @DragoShenron@psn, this is not the italian subforum. My bad, I lost track of the main discussion, you’re totally right Edited October 22, 2021 by DragoShenron@psn 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Nacho5944 181 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 Honestly the XGCS-2 could be a good weapons system, since it's effectively a Japanese AGM-154, which honestly would be a neat little thing to have, and it could probably track ground targets because rather than having just a purely IR seeker like the GCS-1, it has an Imaging IR seeker, which would give it a massive boost in capability of tracking a ground target, and then I believe the other variant of it has GPS and INS navigation like a JDAM, so that could be interesting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... DragoShenron@psn 48 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 10 minutes ago, Nacho5944 said: Honestly the XGCS-2 could be a good weapons system, since it's effectively a Japanese AGM-154, which honestly would be a neat little thing to have, and it could probably track ground targets because rather than having just a purely IR seeker like the GCS-1, it has an Imaging IR seeker, which would give it a massive boost in capability of tracking a ground target, and then I believe the other variant of it has GPS and INS navigation like a JDAM, so that could be interesting. If you can find a way to concretely link the two then definitely go for a suggestion in the forums if it hasn’t been done already I’m not an expert but I know the XGCS-2 was supposed to be a direct upgrade from the GCS-1 before Japan (ironically enough) settled for the JDAM instead. But it is still totally feasible Gaijin has been more than willing to make some exceptions in the past in terms of aircraft armament and as long as the F-4EJ Kai carried said bomb and fired it even during testing then I don’t see why not add it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... SturmWerwolf 793 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 (edited) "XGCS-2" That is interesting and might be just the solution. I found an old page on it. I kinda get the idea with Google Translate. Someone who speaks Japanese will probably need to read it over. https://geolog.mydns.jp/www.geocities.co.jp/Technopolis-Mars/9578/xgcs2.html Edited October 22, 2021 by SturmWerwolf Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... コタリ 2,732 Report post Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) 14 hours ago, Optical_Ilyushin said: I've noticed there's a book shown in this thread describing the XGCS-2 as a general purpose bomb. It might serve well to find this particular book, as it looks like a promising system worth considering. 23 hours ago, Nacho5944 said: https://geolog.mydns.jp/www.geocities.co.jp/Technopolis-Mars/9578/xgcs2.html The XGCS-2 really brings us back to the question of if the GBU-38 should've been removed in the first place. The website states that the ground attack version of the XGCS-2 was GPS/INS guided and that a drop in digital data bus allowing in flight changes to targeting as well as setting the proximity fuze were possible. So at the very least Phantom 301 which was one the test bed of the ADTW was modified with the necessary systems to use GPS guided bombs which would then requalify GBU-38s for the EJ Kai. It would simply just have 2 of them as they would be directly mounted on the pylons. Edited October 23, 2021 by AnimeThighs 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... SturmWerwolf 793 Report post Posted October 23, 2021 1 hour ago, AnimeThighs said: The XGCS-2 really brings us back to the question of if the GBU-38 should've been removed in the first place. The website states that the ground attack version of the XGCS-2 was GPS/INS guided and that a drop in digital data bus allowing in flight changes to targeting as well as setting the proximity fuze were possible. So at the very least Phantom 301 which was one the test bed of the ADTW was modified with the necessary systems to use GPS guided bombs which would then requalify GBU-38s for the EJ Kai. It would simply just have 2 of them as they would be directly mounted on the pylons. Oh wow ... Yep, so it could use them. I just realized that. Good work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Wiggly_Armed_Man 2,383 Report post Posted October 23, 2021 Why don't we just give it GBU-31 then. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... SturmWerwolf 793 Report post Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Wiggly_Armed_Man said: Why don't we just give it GBU-31 then. The GBU-31 isn't isn't even modeled, let alone operable. The model for GBU-38 does exist and it's fully operable (as we saw on the Dev Server). It's obvious now that at least one F-4EJ Kai could use JDAMs or the XGCS-2. So basically Gaijin was correct originally with the JDAMs, just not the number carried. That now raises the question why was that bug report accepted so fast, they must've known. Honestly, what a weird twist of events. Edited October 23, 2021 by SturmWerwolf 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... SturmWerwolf 793 Report post Posted October 23, 2021 3:30 AM here, I couldn't sleep anymore, so just woke up when I first replied. Think I'm gonna have a Redbull and step out for a smoke. Might as well just stay awake now. @AnimeThighs Anyways, you're epic for spotting this. Awesome work, you just saved the F-4EJ Kai's JDAMs at least. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Technical Moderator Optical_Ilyushin 5,554 Report post Posted October 23, 2021 2 hours ago, AnimeThighs said: The XGCS-2 really brings us back to the question of if the GBU-38 should've been removed in the first place. The website states that the ground attack version of the XGCS-2 was GPS/INS guided and that a drop in digital data bus allowing in flight changes to targeting as well as setting the proximity fuze were possible. So at the very least Phantom 301 which was one the test bed of the ADTW was modified with the necessary systems to use GPS guided bombs which would then requalify GBU-38s for the EJ Kai. It would simply just have 2 of them as they would be directly mounted on the pylons. Reading up I realize the IIR variant is the dedicated anti-shipping variant, I probably should've taken a closer look at the article, although it's still probably worth looking for more detailed literature on the matter, as third-party websites aren't exactly usable source material. I suspect that if any live drop tests are performed on the EJ Kai, they're doing so using the IIR variant, since IIR can be a self-contained system. The fundamental problem with GPS-INS functionality is required installation of new systems, which, short of new information being brought up regarding that particular Phantom's modifications, there's no indication that such modifications would have been made, as by the time that the XGCS-2 was being tested, the F-2 was already in production, and GCS-1s were tested off the XF-2 in drop tests just as well; an aircraft which was fully capable of supporting GPS-INS, with the ATDW absolutely having access to more than one aircraft as a testbed. These websites are definitely not sufficient on their own to act as evidence to send to developers, however, as I stated prior, a search into its systems might prove a useful pursuit short of just gathering more data for the P-1 and P-3, which are all but assured candidates for standoff guided weaponry regardless. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... コタリ 2,732 Report post Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Optical_Ilyushin said: I suspect that if any live drop tests are performed on the EJ Kai, they're doing so using the IIR variant, since IIR can be a self-contained system. The fundamental problem with GPS-INS functionality is required installation of new systems, The website specifies the addition of a MIL-STD-1553B compliant data bus. 11 minutes ago, Optical_Ilyushin said: by the time that the XGCS-2 was being tested, the F-2 was already in production, and GCS-1s were tested off the XF-2 in drop tests just as well; an aircraft which was fully capable of supporting GPS-INS, with the ATDW absolutely having access to more than one aircraft as a testbed. The F-2 never came out of the box with GPS bomb compatibility, that came after the XGCS-2 was canceled and the GBU-38 was brought into service. Either way, the F-2 was in production for almost a half a decade at this point. If they wanted the test vehicle to be an F-2, then I don't understand the swap between platforms between variants because any of the XF-2 models would've been available for the IIR drops as well. Either way they would have to fully outfit a plane with JDAM capability and I don't see why they would swap testing platforms in the middle of development. Spoiler Edited October 23, 2021 by AnimeThighs 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Technical Moderator Optical_Ilyushin 5,554 Report post Posted October 23, 2021 18 minutes ago, AnimeThighs said: The website specifies the addition of a MIL-STD-1553B compliant data bus. The F-2 never came out of the box with GPS bomb compatibility, that came after the XGCS-2 was canceled and the GBU-38 was brought into service. Either way, the F-2 was in production for almost a half a decade at this point. If they wanted the test vehicle to be an F-2, then I don't understand the swap between platforms between variants because any of the XF-2 models would've been available for the IIR drops as well. Either way they would have to fully outfit a plane with JDAM capability and I don't see why they would swap testing platforms in the middle of development. Hide contents That's well and fine and all, but the issue is fundamentally I can't really say this is evidence any of the F-4EJ Kai models ever received the upgrades the F-2 received, and as far as I can tell, the initial batch of upgraded F-2s to be compatible with JDAMs was in 2004, which, if the articles are to be believed, aligns it within the time to test the XGCS-2 without the F-4EJ Kai ever needing to receive modifications. It's not impossible that dedicated test variants received particular care and upgrade treatments for the testing of new systems, after all, having only a 1 year time frame to test out a GPS-INS system for a GP bomb is a tight time frame, however, this will be reliant upon published data to have any validity, especially the claim surrounding a MIL-STD-1553B compliant data bus. Third-party websites are not considered valid sources for a good reason. Do not treat this as evidence of JDAM compatibility with the F-4EJ Kai. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... MD_mudhen 31 Report post Posted October 23, 2021 So I tried a simple google search of 新型普通爆弾 XGCS-2 and some found interesting results: 新型普通爆弾とは何？ Weblio辞書 new ordinary bomb - dictionary of air military terms++ (sakura.ne.jp) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... コタリ 2,732 Report post Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Optical_Ilyushin said: It's not impossible that dedicated test variants received particular care and upgrade treatments for the testing of new systems Just going to point out as well that SN 17-8301 has a new antenna as well that magically just appeared around 2004 Spoiler Here without Spoiler The only other airframe with this modification I could find was 07-8431 which was another ADTW testbed Spoiler However I'm sure you will tell me about how 2 ADTW testbeds receiving new antenna right around when the ADTW were testing GPS bombs on said testbeds is entirely coincidental... 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The_Baron3 494 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 10 hours ago, Noveos_Republic said: Dang bro I thought Gaijin said Japan was in top four for revenue? So why do they keep neglecting us Didn't Japan get one of the top 3 top tier aircraft in game (if not THE best 11.0 currently in game) just last update? 1 4 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD_mudhen 31 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 1 minute ago, The_Baron3 said: Didn't Japan get one of the top 3 top tier aircraft in game (if not THE best 11.0 currently in game) just last update? thats for air rb and yes its very strong. Its the FOTM vehicle but its not often japan gets to be the meta. Even then in regards to ground rb which is a entirely different matter, japan will never have guided air to ground munitons while every other nation will sooner or later get them 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nacho5944 181 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 (edited) Hey, has anybody here found something called the XGCS-2? Apparently it could technically be used on the EJ Kai, even if it was just during testing. Maybe it might be something worth researching? https://geolog.mydns.jp/www.geocities.co.jp/Technopolis-Mars/9578/xgcs2.html Edited October 22, 2021 by Nacho5944 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppe Ghost 4 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 2 hours ago, Nacho5944 said: Hey, has anybody here found something called the XGCS-2? Apparently it could technically be used on the EJ Kai, even if it was just during testing. Maybe it might be something worth researching? https://geolog.mydns.jp/www.geocities.co.jp/Technopolis-Mars/9578/xgcs2.html Interesting, but maybe so sekrit that gaijin wont add it This website (in russian) has more pictures and sources https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/154844-japonskie-upravljaemye-aviacionnye-bomby/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelPipes 31 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 11 hours ago, _FraiN said: thats for air rb and yes its very strong. Its the FOTM vehicle but its not often japan gets to be the meta. Even then in regards to ground rb which is a entirely different matter, japan will never have guided air to ground munitons while every other nation will sooner or later get them Every other nation alredy have them, only japan not Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Moderator Optical_Ilyushin 5,554 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 6 hours ago, Ghost2552 said: Interesting, but maybe so sekrit that gaijin wont add it This website (in russian) has more pictures and sources https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/154844-japonskie-upravljaemye-aviacionnye-bomby/ I've noticed there's a book shown in this thread describing the XGCS-2 as a general purpose bomb. It might serve well to find this particular book, as it looks like a promising system worth considering. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph_Gadzin 19 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 On 20/10/2021 at 15:53, LordMustang said: The JDAM will be removed from F-4EJ/Kai. More details should follow later. Regarding the GCS-1, there is no information that it can succesfully detect and track ground targets. Detecting a heat signature of a ground target can be significantly more difficult than detecting ships. If there is information regarding this, or more specifics regarding the seeker performance, it could be considered. So add it aim9j than. If German Phantom can have tnem I see no problem for Japanese Phantoms to have them too 1 1 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragoShenron@psn 48 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, minibebra said: Every other nation alredy have them, only japan not What Please name which Italian aircraft has guided air-to-ground bombs because it must be some mysterious hidden vehicle I’ve never seen, since the G.91YS and the F-104S can only carry regular bombs and rockets Edited October 22, 2021 by DragoShenron@psn 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
伊地知虹夏正在点国策 1,288 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 3 minutes ago, DragoShenron@psn said: What Please name which Italian aircraft has guided air-to-ground bombs because it must be some mysterious hidden vehicle I’ve never seen, since the G.91YS and the F-104S can only carry regular bombs and rockets The Premium G91 R4 if we're just talking about guided AGM's 34 minutes ago, Joseph_Gadzin said: So add it aim9j than. If German Phantom can have tnem I see no problem for Japanese Phantoms to have them too The German Phantom could carry them, they just didn't buy them IIRC ? A better comparison would be the Radwagen 90, there is no evidence that the turret worked, there is even evidence that it couldn't (the museum director) yet it's here. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragoShenron@psn 48 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Ens_Reefen_Ronny said: The Premium G91 R4 if we're just talking about guided AGM's I mean in the regular tech tree, that I can research and unlock naturally Not a premium I’ve to spend money to get I’m aware of the R/4 with AS-20 NORD but that’s 9k GE, if I’ve 0 GE I’d have to buy the 10k pack at 50 quid Do you see where I’m coming from? Edited October 22, 2021 by DragoShenron@psn 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXGaijinedXx 499 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 (edited) Can we stop with the off-topic discussion @DragoShenron@psn, this is not the Italian sub-forum. Edited October 22, 2021 by xXGaijinedXx Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragoShenron@psn 48 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, xXGaijinedXx said: Can we stop with off-topic discussion @DragoShenron@psn, this is not the italian subforum. My bad, I lost track of the main discussion, you’re totally right Edited October 22, 2021 by DragoShenron@psn 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nacho5944 181 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 Honestly the XGCS-2 could be a good weapons system, since it's effectively a Japanese AGM-154, which honestly would be a neat little thing to have, and it could probably track ground targets because rather than having just a purely IR seeker like the GCS-1, it has an Imaging IR seeker, which would give it a massive boost in capability of tracking a ground target, and then I believe the other variant of it has GPS and INS navigation like a JDAM, so that could be interesting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragoShenron@psn 48 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 10 minutes ago, Nacho5944 said: Honestly the XGCS-2 could be a good weapons system, since it's effectively a Japanese AGM-154, which honestly would be a neat little thing to have, and it could probably track ground targets because rather than having just a purely IR seeker like the GCS-1, it has an Imaging IR seeker, which would give it a massive boost in capability of tracking a ground target, and then I believe the other variant of it has GPS and INS navigation like a JDAM, so that could be interesting. If you can find a way to concretely link the two then definitely go for a suggestion in the forums if it hasn’t been done already I’m not an expert but I know the XGCS-2 was supposed to be a direct upgrade from the GCS-1 before Japan (ironically enough) settled for the JDAM instead. But it is still totally feasible Gaijin has been more than willing to make some exceptions in the past in terms of aircraft armament and as long as the F-4EJ Kai carried said bomb and fired it even during testing then I don’t see why not add it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SturmWerwolf 793 Report post Posted October 22, 2021 (edited) "XGCS-2" That is interesting and might be just the solution. I found an old page on it. I kinda get the idea with Google Translate. Someone who speaks Japanese will probably need to read it over. https://geolog.mydns.jp/www.geocities.co.jp/Technopolis-Mars/9578/xgcs2.html Edited October 22, 2021 by SturmWerwolf Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
コタリ 2,732 Report post Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) 14 hours ago, Optical_Ilyushin said: I've noticed there's a book shown in this thread describing the XGCS-2 as a general purpose bomb. It might serve well to find this particular book, as it looks like a promising system worth considering. 23 hours ago, Nacho5944 said: https://geolog.mydns.jp/www.geocities.co.jp/Technopolis-Mars/9578/xgcs2.html The XGCS-2 really brings us back to the question of if the GBU-38 should've been removed in the first place. The website states that the ground attack version of the XGCS-2 was GPS/INS guided and that a drop in digital data bus allowing in flight changes to targeting as well as setting the proximity fuze were possible. So at the very least Phantom 301 which was one the test bed of the ADTW was modified with the necessary systems to use GPS guided bombs which would then requalify GBU-38s for the EJ Kai. It would simply just have 2 of them as they would be directly mounted on the pylons. Edited October 23, 2021 by AnimeThighs 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SturmWerwolf 793 Report post Posted October 23, 2021 1 hour ago, AnimeThighs said: The XGCS-2 really brings us back to the question of if the GBU-38 should've been removed in the first place. The website states that the ground attack version of the XGCS-2 was GPS/INS guided and that a drop in digital data bus allowing in flight changes to targeting as well as setting the proximity fuze were possible. So at the very least Phantom 301 which was one the test bed of the ADTW was modified with the necessary systems to use GPS guided bombs which would then requalify GBU-38s for the EJ Kai. It would simply just have 2 of them as they would be directly mounted on the pylons. Oh wow ... Yep, so it could use them. I just realized that. Good work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggly_Armed_Man 2,383 Report post Posted October 23, 2021 Why don't we just give it GBU-31 then. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SturmWerwolf 793 Report post Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Wiggly_Armed_Man said: Why don't we just give it GBU-31 then. The GBU-31 isn't isn't even modeled, let alone operable. The model for GBU-38 does exist and it's fully operable (as we saw on the Dev Server). It's obvious now that at least one F-4EJ Kai could use JDAMs or the XGCS-2. So basically Gaijin was correct originally with the JDAMs, just not the number carried. That now raises the question why was that bug report accepted so fast, they must've known. Honestly, what a weird twist of events. Edited October 23, 2021 by SturmWerwolf 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SturmWerwolf 793 Report post Posted October 23, 2021 3:30 AM here, I couldn't sleep anymore, so just woke up when I first replied. Think I'm gonna have a Redbull and step out for a smoke. Might as well just stay awake now. @AnimeThighs Anyways, you're epic for spotting this. Awesome work, you just saved the F-4EJ Kai's JDAMs at least. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Moderator Optical_Ilyushin 5,554 Report post Posted October 23, 2021 2 hours ago, AnimeThighs said: The XGCS-2 really brings us back to the question of if the GBU-38 should've been removed in the first place. The website states that the ground attack version of the XGCS-2 was GPS/INS guided and that a drop in digital data bus allowing in flight changes to targeting as well as setting the proximity fuze were possible. So at the very least Phantom 301 which was one the test bed of the ADTW was modified with the necessary systems to use GPS guided bombs which would then requalify GBU-38s for the EJ Kai. It would simply just have 2 of them as they would be directly mounted on the pylons. Reading up I realize the IIR variant is the dedicated anti-shipping variant, I probably should've taken a closer look at the article, although it's still probably worth looking for more detailed literature on the matter, as third-party websites aren't exactly usable source material. I suspect that if any live drop tests are performed on the EJ Kai, they're doing so using the IIR variant, since IIR can be a self-contained system. The fundamental problem with GPS-INS functionality is required installation of new systems, which, short of new information being brought up regarding that particular Phantom's modifications, there's no indication that such modifications would have been made, as by the time that the XGCS-2 was being tested, the F-2 was already in production, and GCS-1s were tested off the XF-2 in drop tests just as well; an aircraft which was fully capable of supporting GPS-INS, with the ATDW absolutely having access to more than one aircraft as a testbed. These websites are definitely not sufficient on their own to act as evidence to send to developers, however, as I stated prior, a search into its systems might prove a useful pursuit short of just gathering more data for the P-1 and P-3, which are all but assured candidates for standoff guided weaponry regardless. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
コタリ 2,732 Report post Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Optical_Ilyushin said: I suspect that if any live drop tests are performed on the EJ Kai, they're doing so using the IIR variant, since IIR can be a self-contained system. The fundamental problem with GPS-INS functionality is required installation of new systems, The website specifies the addition of a MIL-STD-1553B compliant data bus. 11 minutes ago, Optical_Ilyushin said: by the time that the XGCS-2 was being tested, the F-2 was already in production, and GCS-1s were tested off the XF-2 in drop tests just as well; an aircraft which was fully capable of supporting GPS-INS, with the ATDW absolutely having access to more than one aircraft as a testbed. The F-2 never came out of the box with GPS bomb compatibility, that came after the XGCS-2 was canceled and the GBU-38 was brought into service. Either way, the F-2 was in production for almost a half a decade at this point. If they wanted the test vehicle to be an F-2, then I don't understand the swap between platforms between variants because any of the XF-2 models would've been available for the IIR drops as well. Either way they would have to fully outfit a plane with JDAM capability and I don't see why they would swap testing platforms in the middle of development. Spoiler Edited October 23, 2021 by AnimeThighs 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Moderator Optical_Ilyushin 5,554 Report post Posted October 23, 2021 18 minutes ago, AnimeThighs said: The website specifies the addition of a MIL-STD-1553B compliant data bus. The F-2 never came out of the box with GPS bomb compatibility, that came after the XGCS-2 was canceled and the GBU-38 was brought into service. Either way, the F-2 was in production for almost a half a decade at this point. If they wanted the test vehicle to be an F-2, then I don't understand the swap between platforms between variants because any of the XF-2 models would've been available for the IIR drops as well. Either way they would have to fully outfit a plane with JDAM capability and I don't see why they would swap testing platforms in the middle of development. Hide contents That's well and fine and all, but the issue is fundamentally I can't really say this is evidence any of the F-4EJ Kai models ever received the upgrades the F-2 received, and as far as I can tell, the initial batch of upgraded F-2s to be compatible with JDAMs was in 2004, which, if the articles are to be believed, aligns it within the time to test the XGCS-2 without the F-4EJ Kai ever needing to receive modifications. It's not impossible that dedicated test variants received particular care and upgrade treatments for the testing of new systems, after all, having only a 1 year time frame to test out a GPS-INS system for a GP bomb is a tight time frame, however, this will be reliant upon published data to have any validity, especially the claim surrounding a MIL-STD-1553B compliant data bus. Third-party websites are not considered valid sources for a good reason. Do not treat this as evidence of JDAM compatibility with the F-4EJ Kai. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD_mudhen 31 Report post Posted October 23, 2021 So I tried a simple google search of 新型普通爆弾 XGCS-2 and some found interesting results: 新型普通爆弾とは何？ Weblio辞書 new ordinary bomb - dictionary of air military terms++ (sakura.ne.jp) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
コタリ 2,732 Report post Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Optical_Ilyushin said: It's not impossible that dedicated test variants received particular care and upgrade treatments for the testing of new systems Just going to point out as well that SN 17-8301 has a new antenna as well that magically just appeared around 2004 Spoiler Here without Spoiler The only other airframe with this modification I could find was 07-8431 which was another ADTW testbed Spoiler However I'm sure you will tell me about how 2 ADTW testbeds receiving new antenna right around when the ADTW were testing GPS bombs on said testbeds is entirely coincidental... Edited October 23, 2021 by AnimeThighs 1 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Summary of arguments and rebuttals
Picture of the JDAM on the F-4EJ Kai?
it is just for display.
Is the ADTW's F-4EJ's new antenna is GPS antenna?
It's been installed since 1988, so that is not a GPS antenna.
A picture of the F-4EJ Kai with the XGCS-2?
Just performing aerodynamics and separation tests with dummy bomb, not real bomb.
F-4EJ Kai's GCS-1?
No ground attack ability due to seeker's performance
F-4EJ Kai's AGM-62 or AGM-65?
When producing the F-4EJ, all equipment was removed, and no functions were added even in EJ Kai.
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