French Navy in War Thunder

[NAYEONnaise 1,936]

here's to hoping that one of the two premiums to be revealed for danger zone is a French ship...

 

i don't play naval, but giving the historical considerations, French navy is super-overdue. Much like the Chinese helicopters drama, but tbh the former is worse. No signs of being worked on through leaks, too. (are there any Q&A responses pertaining to such btw)?

[Arghail 1,220]

19 hours ago, NAYEONnaise said:

here's to hoping that one of the two premiums to be revealed for danger zone is a French ship...

 

i don't play naval, but giving the historical considerations, French navy is super-overdue. Much like the Chinese helicopters drama, but tbh the former is worse. No signs of being worked on through leaks, too. (are there any Q&A responses pertaining to such btw)?

There was back in late 2018, and the answer was basically "it's too soon to talk about it". Last time I heard about the French navy was from Smin last year who said it was still "too soon to talk about it".

In short : It's been too soon to talk about it for the past 4 years, and we don't have anymore infos right now.

[Ober_Gpf 13]

1 hour ago, Arghail said:

There was back in late 2018, and the answer was basically "it's too soon to talk about it". Last time I heard about the French navy was from Smin last year who said it was still "too soon to talk about it".

In short : It's been too soon to talk about it for the past 4 years, and we don't have anymore infos right now.

Man I would sell a kidney (granted, not mine) to get some info and a rough ballpark estimate of an ETA...

[LaTerreurDuCiel 54]

23 hours ago, NAYEONnaise said:

here's to hoping that one of the two premiums to be revealed for danger zone is a French ship...

 

i don't play naval, but giving the historical considerations, French navy is super-overdue. Much like the Chinese helicopters drama, but tbh the former is worse. No signs of being worked on through leaks, too. (are there any Q&A responses pertaining to such btw)?

From what I've heard, recently or several years ago, the French Navy doesn't even seem to be on the agenda ! No more today than four years ago !

So, we have the Italian, Soviet, but not French navy.. Nonsense..

Given how it is today, it is to be feared that this situation will continue for a few years...

[Ober_Gpf 13]

13 minutes ago, ZOZZ2022 said:

From what I've heard, recently or several years ago, the French Navy doesn't even seem to be on the agenda ! No more today than four years ago !

So, we have the Italian, Soviet, but not French navy.. Nonsense..

Given how it is today, it is to be feared that this situation will continue for a few years...

Yeah it's just much more important to add Russian concept/paper ships instead and new countries like uhhhh romania idk

[Ruthless95 1,177]

6 hours ago, ZOZZ2022 said:

So, we have the Italian, Soviet, but not French navy.. Nonsense..

are you really putting regia marina in the same realm as the soviet navy? we all know italian navy was a rival of the french navy in meditreanean even in the peace times and had their own little naval arms race. their size was comparable but italy fought the war (however poor of an effort it was but still) while france got it's navy capitulated for pretty much the entirety of the war.

so yea we have regia marina but not marine nationale and there is nothing wrong with that. soviet navy is a different story.

 

 

 

i was thinking since we knew french navy had not many partol boats or variants to fill a whole tech tree, maybe they will add the blue water fleet sooner than coastal fleet. infact to be honest french coastal fleet (and all coastal fleets for that matter) are a waste of development time but since gaijin had them developed they had to roll with it but they don't have that obligation with france. maybe they can focus 100% on a more complete blue water fleet.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Ruthless95

[LaTerreurDuCiel 54]

On 13/06/2022 at 05:20, Ruthless95 said:

mettez-vous vraiment la regia marina dans le même domaine que la marine soviétique ? nous savons tous que la marine italienne était une rivale de la marine française en méditerranée même en temps de paix et avait sa propre petite course aux armements navals. leur taille était comparable mais l'italie a combattu la guerre (même si c'était un effort médiocre mais quand même) tandis que la france a fait capituler sa marine pendant à peu près l'intégralité de la guerre.

donc oui, nous avons la marina regia mais pas la marine nationale et il n'y a rien de mal à cela. la marine soviétique est une autre histoire.

 

 

 

Je pensais puisque nous savions que la marine française n'avait pas beaucoup de bateaux partol ou de variantes pour remplir tout un arbre technologique, peut-être qu'ils ajouteraient la flotte hauturière plus tôt que la flotte côtière. En fait, pour être honnête, la flotte côtière française (et toutes les flottes côtières d'ailleurs) est une perte de temps de développement, mais depuis que Gaijin les a développées, ils ont dû faire avec mais ils n'ont pas cette obligation avec la France. peut-être peuvent-ils se concentrer à 100 % sur une flotte hauturière plus complète.

 

The French navy had to be there, since the Italian, certainly a competitor, but nevertheless factually less powerful, the French navy also had Béarn. The Béarn, was indeed a ship without equivalent in Italy. But the authorities of the Regia Marina did not believe it. It will only catch up after its defeat at Cape Matapan, where the Admiralty has understood the importance of air support. In addition to the transformation of a collier into an aircraft carrier in the 1920s, the Giuseppe Miraglia, it launched late into the transformation of two ocean liners, the Aquila and the Sparviero. They will never be finished, just like the two French Joffre planned in the boxes in 1940.

 

 

For the battleships, we can say: equality. To the two former French battleships of the Courbet class and to the three of the Lorraine class correspond the two Cesare and the two Duilio. France seems to have the advantage in numbers, but in reality the two units of the Courbet class are of questionable military value, one of them practically serving as a training ship. In terms of fast battleships, when France began work and launched the 2 units of the Dunkerque class, Italy replied with its two Littorio. Then with the two Richelieu, Italy responds with its two Roma. But in the same way, the second units of these classes will never be put into service during the war. Although the Jean Bart entered service after the war.

 

As for the cruisers, the parallelism is even more obvious: to the two heavy cruisers of the Duquesne class, Italy responds with the Trento. So in Bolzano we can oppose Algeria. To the four Zara correspond the four Suffren. To the three light cruisers Duguay-Trouin, the Emile Bertin and the Jeanne d'Arc answer the four Giussano, the first of the great class Condottieri, and the two Cadorna of the second group. Finally, the six buildings of the La Galissonnière class are reproduced by the three other Condottieri groups, the Montecuccoli, Aosta and Abruzzi classes, in all six units.

 

 

 

In terms of submarines, France had a homogeneous fleet with 81 units against 116 for the Italians. The latter dispersed into a number of single classes or two three or four units, divided into ocean-going, medium and coastal submarines. The French had some unprecedented buildings, including the submarine cruiser Surcouf, and had the three Rolland Morillots and the eight Aurore built in 1940, to a disastrous fate. The Italians will build another 14 Acciaio and 10 Flutto (out of 26 planned), trying their hand at miniature submarines with its CM (2 units), CC (none completed) preceded by the CA (2) and CB (22). The former were deployed in packs, operating mainly from Bordeaux and La Pallice, like U-boats.

 

 

In short, it is abnormal that the French fleet is missing, certainly the Treaty of Washigton was lamentable towards France, which previously, always had the first or the second world navy (but was too broke economically), the Italians, when with them, considers this treated as an honor. The fact that our navy is not yet on the program is humiliating, because I don't see why there would be the Italian one and not the French one (the French one was still more powerful, because having a little more tonnage, and having a aircraft carrier, nevertheless, the difference between the two is not huge). The French Navy also has a much larger naval history. Besides, I never put the Italian and Soviet navy on the same level, you would have known that by glancing at my first message.

 

For the coastal tree, there is a post here : 

 

I would add though that War Thunder is a game about WWII AND the Cold War.

The French Navy of the Cold War is obviously much more powerful there than the Italian!

 

(Clémenceau and Foch aircraft carriers)

[Arghail 1,220]

10 hours ago, Ruthless95 said:

are you really putting regia marina in the same realm as the soviet navy? we all know italian navy was a rival of the french navy in meditreanean even in the peace times and had their own little naval arms race. their size was comparable but italy fought the war (however poor of an effort it was but still) while france got it's navy capitulated for pretty much the entirety of the war.

so yea we have regia marina but not marine nationale and there is nothing wrong with that. soviet navy is a different story.

 

 

 

i was thinking since we knew french navy had not many partol boats or variants to fill a whole tech tree, maybe they will add the blue water fleet sooner than coastal fleet. infact to be honest french coastal fleet (and all coastal fleets for that matter) are a waste of development time but since gaijin had them developed they had to roll with it but they don't have that obligation with france. maybe they can focus 100% on a more complete blue water fleet.

 

1 hour ago, ZOZZ2022 said:

 

The French navy should be there, since the Italian, admittedly a competitor, but nevertheless factually less powerful, the French navy also had Béarn.

The Béarn, was indeed a ship without equivalent in Italy. But the authorities of the Regia Marina did not believe it. She will only catch up after her defeat at Cape Matapan, where the Admiralty understood the importance of air support. Apart from the conversion of a coal ship into an aircraft carrier in the 1920s, the Giuseppe Miraglia, it belatedly embarked on the conversion of two ocean liners, the Aquila and the Sparviero. They will never be finished, just like the two french Joffre planned in the boxes in 1940.

 

 

(Clémenceau and Foch aircraft carriers)

 

 

This is not the subject. Once again, whether or not the Italian or the Soviet navy are bigger or smaller than France or more "worthy" to be in the game is completely irrelevant. The fact is that they're in the game now, and the French navy isn't yet.

As with everything when it comes to adding vehicles in this game, it's about Gaijin's decision first and foremost. And I believe Gaijin's decision is influenced either by a matter of popularity among the players, or because they're Russian. The main reason why an anecdotal navy like the Russian one is in the game is because it's Russian, no more, no less. Perfectly normal for a Russian company to favor their own navy since it's much easier for them to get infos on the subject, and there's a matter of national preference, which is also understandable (even if I find much more questionable the addition of many cold war vehicle that completely break the balance just because they don't have enough WW2 ships to fill the gaps). Keep in mind it's THEIR game before everything else.

French tech trees aren't that popular in the game, and Naval game mode isn't as popular as the rest either. That should tell you everything you need to know about why there's still no French navy in War Thunder. As for Italy, some Italian ships were being worked on a long time ago, almost since naval was first announced. if I recall correctly, even before Italy had its own Air and Ground trees.

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Arghail

[LaTerreurDuCiel 54]

32 minutes ago, Arghail said:

 

 

This is not the subject. Once again, whether or not the Italian or the Soviet navy are bigger or smaller than France or more "worthy" to be in the game is completely irrelevant. The fact is that they're in the game now, and the French navy isn't yet.

As with everything when it comes to adding vehicles in this game, it's about Gaijin's decision first and foremost. And I believe Gaijin's decision is influenced either by a matter of popularity among the players, or because they're Russian. The main reason why an anecdotal navy like the Russian one is in the game is because it's Russian, no more, no less. Perfectly normal for a Russian company to favor their own navy since it's much easier for them to get infos on the subject, and there's a matter of national preference, which is also understandable (even if I find much more questionable the addition of many cold war vehicle that completely break the balance just because they don't have enough WW2 ships to fill the gaps). Keep in mind it's THEIR game before everything else.

French tech trees aren't that popular in the game, and Naval game mode isn't as popular as the rest either. That should tell you everything you need to know about why there's still no French navy in War Thunder. As for Italy, some Italian ships were being worked on a long time ago, almost since naval was first announced. if I recall correctly, even before Italy had its own Air and Ground trees.

 

 

I quite agree, however, if we start from this logic, Gaijin would be able to add the Chinese navy before the French, which would be worse than a humiliation. And as I said, if they do that, I delete my account !

I find it abnormal that the Italians might have a navy, and we don't. Beyond knowing which country had the best navy, it is mainly for the sake of fairness.

And if our tech trees are less popular, it's because Gaijin often underestimates the performance of our vheicles, and doesn't add some. For example, the Super-Mystère went to Mach 1 without afterburner in reality, in War Thunder, it passes it with difficulty, with afterburner on ! If the French tree is not very popular, it is their fault. We always come after others.

In addition, they make the Russian tree more popular with (for exemple) Mig21s with too low BRs Mig21F-13: 8.7, and the cursed cancerous Mig21S at 9.0 !

Edited June 13, 2022 by ZOZZ2022

[Arghail 1,220]

Breaking news : Latest official comment regarding the French navy :

 

Yeah... don't get your hopes up just yet.

[Ruthless95 1,177]

16 hours ago, ZOZZ2022 said:

I find it abnormal that the Italians might have a navy, and we don't. Beyond knowing which country had the best navy, it is mainly for the sake of fairness.

gaijin was planning to introduce naval warfare in war thunder in the meditreanean rivalry between british and italian navies that could have both partol boat senarios and larger coastal vessels, so they started modelling these 2 countries ships and boats. that's why italy with its mediocre naval size and effort during ww2 got a lot of its ships modeled. only after fanbase showed discontent towards boats and favored larger ships from destroyers and larger that gaijin put a hold on italian tree and worked on german, american and russian ships. they slowly introduced royal navy and japanese navy. if it wasn't for that short period they worked on italian navy and had few of the ships done already sitting in files italy wouldn't have had its navy either just like france. when italian navy was introduced it was sorely missing some important stuff and was far off the development schedule if you remember all nations had great heavy cruisers but italy had just trento which was probably decided to be worked on before there was plan for better cruisers to get to the game and by the time it was done all other nations had better cruisers. same story with the first italian battleship dante, some nations had 3 battleships before italy got 1. you can see how gaijin is forced to play along a game they don't want to play anymore and that's development of italian naval tree. italy is still missing its ideal ship classes in nearly every single ship roll, spica in coastal fleet tree, navigatori in destroyers, abruzzi in light cruisers, conte dicavour in ww1 battleships etc. and that's because it's development was 1- not priority 2- dis-jointed and in phases 3- poorly researched.

but i can't deny the fact that the only reason italian navy exists in game (and french navy doesn't so far) is because they fought the royal navy and created a naval theater in ww2

[Handorik 539]

7 hours ago, Ruthless95 said:

gaijin was planning to introduce naval warfare in war thunder in the meditreanean rivalry between british and italian navies that could have both partol boat senarios and larger coastal vessels, so they started modelling these 2 countries ships and boats. that's why italy with its mediocre naval size and effort during ww2 got a lot of its ships modeled. only after fanbase showed discontent towards boats and favored larger ships from destroyers and larger that gaijin put a hold on italian tree and worked on german, american and russian ships. they slowly introduced royal navy and japanese navy. if it wasn't for that short period they worked on italian navy and had few of the ships done already sitting in files italy wouldn't have had its navy either just like france. when italian navy was introduced it was sorely missing some important stuff and was far off the development schedule if you remember all nations had great heavy cruisers but italy had just trento which was probably decided to be worked on before there was plan for better cruisers to get to the game and by the time it was done all other nations had better cruisers. same story with the first italian battleship dante, some nations had 3 battleships before italy got 1. you can see how gaijin is forced to play along a game they don't want to play anymore and that's development of italian naval tree. italy is still missing its ideal ship classes in nearly every single ship roll, spica in coastal fleet tree, navigatori in destroyers, abruzzi in light cruisers, conte dicavour in ww1 battleships etc. and that's because it's development was 1- not priority 2- dis-jointed and in phases 3- poorly researched.

but i can't deny the fact that the only reason italian navy exists in game (and french navy doesn't so far) is because they fought the royal navy and created a naval theater in ww2

 

Are you a dev or an historical consultant? Please do not try to recreate captivating background story based on opinions or personal speculations; this is completely misleading.

The only fact that you can know it is that the ITT naval branch luckily receives an update (small or big) each patch (and I hope that this pace will be improved or at least mantained); that's all.

[Dalless 520]

On 13/06/2022 at 02:46, ZOZZ2022 said:

The Béarn, was indeed a ship without equivalent in Italy.

Aquila, Sparviero??? Ever heard of those?

 

On 13/06/2022 at 02:46, ZOZZ2022 said:

The French navy had to be there, since the Italian, certainly a competitor, but nevertheless factually less powerful

Really???? Is that so?

Source: https://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignsItalianNavy.htm

 

Looking at the chart above, I don't think so.

 

15 hours ago, Ruthless95 said:

italy with its mediocre naval size and effort during ww2

Again Ruthless check out above. It was the fourth largest navy at the time and held off a much bigger Royal Navy for three years without oil until the Americans completely tipped the balance.

 

I don't know how you guys got on Italy but your reasoning that if the WOPS got a navy, we should have one too is really annoying. Your reasoning is coloured by the fact the French navy is currently stronger than the Italian one. 

 

Now come the confused emojis and comebacks on how wrong my post is.

 

BTW, I am not against a French navy and wonder when they will add it.  

[LaTerreurDuCiel 54]

4 hours ago, Dalless said:

Aquila, Sparviero??? Ever heard of those?

 

Really???? Is that so?

Source: https://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignsItalianNavy.htm

 

Looking at the chart above, I don't think so.

 

Again Ruthless check out above. It was the fourth largest navy at the time and held off a much bigger Royal Navy for three years without oil until the Americans completely tipped the balance.

 

I don't know how you guys got on Italy but your reasoning that if the WOPS got a navy, we should have one too is really annoying. Your reasoning is coloured by the fact the French navy is currently stronger than the Italian one. 

 

Now come the confused emojis and comebacks on how wrong my post is.

 

BTW, I am not against a French navy and wonder when they will add it.  

 

I'm not going to repeat myself, I explained everything in my big comment.. The goal is not to know which navy is the best, but simply to say that there is a concern for fairness. But yes, french was the most powerful.

You also compare the Italian navy of the Mediterranean (entire what) to only a part of the French navy... 

And to finish, the Aquila and Sparviero were never completed. Like the two french Joffre.

But yes, the fact that the French Navy is not on WT is very annoying !

Again, the Italian and French Navy were similar in WWII and pre-war, but WT being a WWII AND Cold War game, the French Navy was incomparably more powerful during this period, but again, this is not the problem. It's not a rank problem !

For the Chinese navy, on the other hand, the concern for power (incomparable at the time) obviously had to be taken into account.

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by ZOZZ2022

[Dalless 520]

French Navy 1939

This fine fleet in 1939 was conventional, coherent, and well-trained with a quasi-symbolic presence on the Atlantic at Brest (only a couple of old dreadnoughts and a few destroyers) the rest being deployed in the Mediterranean, facing to the Regia Marina. By then the Royal Italian Navy was qualitatively superior to that of 1914, and aligned to the Axis in an alliance that mirrored the Franco-British tacit arrangement for the Mediterranean, as the Kriegsmarine was far from capable to muster sufficient naval forces locally, but to smuggle out a few submarines. As was often the case in art, thes Washington's treaty constraint had been salutary. Many recognized the value of this navy that events betrayed in the most tragic and ironic fashion.

• Battleships: 8 (+2 in completion)
• Aircraft carrier: 1 (2 under construction)
• Cruisers: 20
• Destroyers: 70 (32 heavy, 38 light)
• Torpedo boats: 12
• Submersibles: 78
• Others: 58

Source: https://naval-encyclopedia.com/ww2/french-navy.php

 

Italian Navy 1939

Tonnage in 1939:
-4 Battleships
-19 Cruisers
-56 Destroyers
-70 Torpedo Boats*
-122 Submarines
-73 MAS
-75 Miscellaneous
*Including 34 old reclassed destroyers in 1939.

Additional units (entered in service between June 1940 and September 1943):
-3 battleships
-4 cruisers
-7 Destroyers
-50 Submarines
-47 Corvettes
-420 MTBs and misc.

 

Source: https://naval-encyclopedia.com/ww2/regia-marina

 

Vittorio Veneto firing at the battle of cape Spartivento

 

Again, not against the French Navy being added just to be clear.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Dalless

[Ruthless95 1,177]

15 hours ago, Handorik said:

 

Are you a dev or an historical consultant? Please do not try to recreate captivating background story based on opinions or personal speculations; this is completely misleading.

The only fact that you can know it is that the ITT naval branch luckily receives an update (small or big) each patch (and I hope that this pace will be improved or at least mantained); that's all.

funny.

but yea if you play war thunder for 8 years and are involved in the gossips and facts shared around since 8 years ago and see how the development news is "developing" you too can put 2 and 2 together to get a 4. sometimes you don't need to be a scientist to guess water is wet. what i said above was a well educated guess based on what i have seen and heard for years from years ago and again looking at the timeline of things you too can guess the same. be 100% sure gaijin is not putting italy above france in terms of development time. italy got its navy because of what i said. done deal. 

[Ruthless95 1,177]

5 hours ago, ZOZZ2022 said:

but WT being a WWII AND Cold War game, the French Navy was incomparably more powerful during this period,

i forgot to address this, while true navy concept of war thunder eventually became about patrol boats of the ww2 era. in the past 2 years we are seeing cold war era ships being added. not only that but also ships are a different story from planes and tanks since you can get ships built from 1910 to modern day into game, and as we have seen gaijin has moved towards ww1 more than coldwar. we will eventually move towards cold war but there is no denying that cold war era ships are less fun to play than ww1 up to 1950s ships because of less big guns and more technology. france has bigger cold war era navy because they won the war you know, it's easy to say the winner got more toys than the loser, that's obvious. but truely the "COLDWAR ERA" in ships matter far far less in navy in terms of having a fun gameplay and that's why france with a giant cold war era navy is not existing yet. cold war navy simply doesn't matter (for now at least).

[qwert96 700]

9 hours ago, Ruthless95 said:

italy got its navy because of what i said.

Segùr belè. 

Smh.

[Ruthless95 1,177]

13 minutes ago, qwert96 said:

Segùr belè.

even google can't translate this..

[LaTerreurDuCiel 54]

9 hours ago, Ruthless95 said:

J'ai oublié d'aborder ce sujet, alors que le véritable concept naval du tonnerre de guerre est finalement devenu celui des patrouilleurs de l'ère ww2. au cours des 2 dernières années, nous avons vu l'ajout de navires de l'époque de la guerre froide. non seulement cela, mais aussi les navires sont une histoire différente des avions et des chars puisque vous pouvez obtenir des navires construits de 1910 à nos jours dans le jeu, et comme nous l'avons vu, gaijin s'est déplacé vers la ww1 plus que la guerre froide. nous finirons par nous diriger vers la guerre froide, mais il est indéniable que les navires de l'époque de la guerre froide sont moins amusants à jouer que les navires de la première guerre mondiale jusqu'aux années 1950 en raison de moins de gros canons et de plus de technologie. La France a une plus grande marine de l'époque de la guerre froide parce qu'elle a gagné la guerre, vous savez, c'est facile de dire que le gagnant a plus de jouets que le perdant, c'est évident. mais vraiment "l'ÈRE COLDWAR" dans les navires importe beaucoup moins dans la marine en termes de gameplay amusant et que ' C'est pourquoi la France avec une marine géante de l'époque de la guerre froide n'existe pas encore. la marine de la guerre froide n'a tout simplement pas d'importance (pour l'instant du moins).

There are already cold war ships in the game. Like planes and tanks. However, there aren't a lot of them, because the naval mod is recent compared to the others.

I hope they add the French navy before adding powerful ships with sea/air or sea/sea naval missiles !!

The pleasure of playing depends on everyone, I would like to play on a Colbert cruiser with its Masurca and Exocet missiles !

[Christian70 1,643]

I support, French Navy was one of the 6 largest to begin of WW II (US, GB, JP, F, I and D). After WW II, in cold war and now; French Navy is one of the best in World. Also some Ships are designed and build for other Navys. So French Navy have to be a part in War Thunder.

 

One of my wishes are the La combattante II class FPB, designed in Germany, Build in France (for Israel, partly for Germany). So they can used in GER and F Naval tree

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger-class_fast_attack_craft

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Combattante_class_fast_attack_craft

 

 

[Oshida_BCF 116]

I can't wait for our ship to get added, i want to play with "naval" friend, but they all play different nation, and i kinda want to play mine

[Ober_Gpf 13]

3 hours ago, Oshida_BCfreedom said:

I can't wait for our ship to get added, i want to play with "naval" friend, but they all play different nation, and i kinda want to play mine

Same... but apparently we won't get the French navy for at least a few more years (see earlier posts)

[Kawamura 72]

Ehhh. At least if you want to play french Navy you can see them in World of warship where they perform very well. 

 

At least others developers saw the potential of that military branch for a long time now.

 

People just want 1 or 2 premium, even if it's for one years. Like the Italian ground tech tree at the time. Just to grind some crew skill and participate in the challenges.

[Magiaconatus 1,679]

@Arghail, @sam_dom Sorry about the ping, but I just couldn't think of anybody else when it comes to having good knowledge about a somewhat "niche" French Navy related question(s).

 

Have you guys ever read about the fuze delay(s) that was employed in French naval ammunition? You might ask for what gun, or from what era, but I am curious about every and any that was documented somewhere, and you may know about.