ukraine Ukraine Ground Forces Tree

[leroyonly 4,310]

Guys, keep it on topic. I know that this will stay as a rather volitile topic for the foreseeable future however do keep politics out of it. So far most of you guys have been keeping this suggestion on-topic, please keep it that way. I also cleaned up some of the off-topic stuff.

[Kingtiez@live 606]

13 minutes ago, Yontzee said:

I wouldn't bring up nationalist tendencies/bias because that can be stretched to any nation. 

 

I think this issue would be resolved a lot easier if Gaijin had planned on integrating post-Soviet states such as Belarus, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, etc. into the USSR initially (initially as in when they started adding modern vehicles) rather than just solely Russian vehicles. 

I agree with the nationalist bit.

 

I’m not sure why they didn’t, especially the other post-Soviet states, not just Ukraine, we can’t say it was because of the you know what because those nations didn’t involve themselves, its a question to be asked for sure.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Kingtiez@live

[stuka2689 314]

Seems like lots of peoples are saying 'нет'.

But +1 from me

[HIMARS_Enjoyer 182]

On 14/12/2022 at 18:03, Raiden_Black said:

If Ukraine got Leo 1s in mid-2022 




 

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There will be Nizh ERA, cuz K-1 can`t withstand APFSDS, Nizh can. But i very like your drawing.

[DerLachendeMann 506]

I voted no, not enough vehicles for a proper tree. Vehicles could be added to the Russian tree though, just like Germany having vehicles from East and West Germany, and China vehicles from China and Taiwan.

[HIMARS_Enjoyer 182]

Just now, DerLachendeMann said:

I voted no, not enough vehicles for a proper tree. Vehicles could be added to the Russian tree though, just like Germany having vehicles from East and West Germany, and China vehicles from China and Taiwan.

Too much overpower for russian tech tree. And it will cause political problems definitely.

[Yontzee 1,673]

8 hours ago, DerLachendeMann said:

I voted no, not enough vehicles for a proper tree. Vehicles could be added to the Russian tree though, just like Germany having vehicles from East and West Germany, and China vehicles from China and Taiwan.

It’s got more ground vehicles than the Israeli tree that’s in-game and plenty more that could be added to include prototypes, some production vehicles, and donated vehicles. I was just limited because I didn’t want to overwhelm the tree.

 

Appreciate the feedback though. 
 

Edit: Everyone marking me confused, do you have a reason or are you just doing it because you don’t like the tree/me? I’m being respectful.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Yontzee

[Raiden_Black 1,875]

2 hours ago, HIMARS_Enjoyer said:

There will be Nizh ERA, cuz K-1 can`t withstand APFSDS, Nizh can. But i very like your drawing.

Yea well ... there isn't much spare NozhNizh ERA left now ... it was exclusively made by Ukraine and during this war time, most of their complex manufacturing took a hit.
Hence all the donated T-72Ms are being modified with K-1s, which are found abundant in eastern European countries ... 
Same would've happened to the Leopard 1s as well (if Germany decided to donate them) ...
Also, Nozh is pretty heavy, much heavier than K-1 ... just look at the added weight puts strain on the T-64 Bulat.
Leopard 1's USP (main advantage) i.e its mobility, would've taken a bigger impact, if it was modified with Nozh.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Raiden_Black

[ZVO_12_INCH 492]

17 hours ago, Yontzee said:

I wouldn't bring up nationalist tendencies/bias because that can be stretched to any nation. 

 

I think this issue would be resolved a lot easier if Gaijin had planned on integrating post-Soviet states such as Belarus, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, etc. into the USSR initially (initially as in when they started adding modern vehicles) rather than just solely Russian vehicles. 

I agree, they have vehicles like the BMT-72 as well that was a IFV/Tank hybrid which I always thought as unique. 

I propose to create a combined TREE-Czech Republic/Slovakia/Bulgaria/Romania/Ukraine-RU server for the most part will not play it...China?...but there will be an opportunity for these countries....The MiG-29 can be added not only to the USSR and Germany...I would add Poland here....but the Poles themselves will probably object...

Edited December 16, 2022 by ZVO_12_INCH

[HIMARS_Enjoyer 182]

37 minutes ago, Raiden_Black said:

Yea well ... there isn't much spare NozhNizh ERA left now ... it was exclusively made by Ukraine and during this war time, most of their complex manufacturing took a hit.
Hence all the donated T-72Ms are being modified with K-1s, which are found abundant in eastern European countries ... 
Same would've happened to the Leopard 1s as well (if Germany decided to donate them) ...
Also, Nozh is pretty heavy, much heavier than K-1 ... just look at the added weight puts strain on the T-64 Bulat.
Leopard 1's USP (main advantage) i.e its mobility, would've taken a bigger impact, if it was modified with Nozh.

NIZH ERA weights not more than Kontakt-1. Container(same as Kontakt-1 container) with Nizh ERA weights around 4.4 kg, if i remember correctly, and container with Kontakt-1 ERA weights 5.2 kg....

It`s weight of Nizh modules. For example, on T-64 BM-2 used ХСЧКВ-19А modules. 1.4 kg per each block 

Weight of Kontakt-1 container is around 3kg+1.4 kg ХСЧКВ-19А module weights.

Compare it to 5.2 kg of Kontakt-1 ERA with container.

 

Addition: 3kg weights container without mounting.

Edited December 16, 2022 by HIMARS_Enjoyer
Addition

[Raiden_Black 1,875]

2 hours ago, DerLachendeMann said:

I voted no, not enough vehicles for a proper tree. Vehicles could be added to the Russian tree though, just like Germany having vehicles from East and West Germany, and China vehicles from China and Taiwan.

 

2 hours ago, HIMARS_Enjoyer said:

Too much overpower for russian tech tree. And it will cause political problems definitely.

Just want to add to this.
Russian TT is already oversaturated. And there are many other variants, new vehicles and prototypes still left to be added to the Ru tree.
Adding a whole Ukrainian sub tree will make the Ru tree even more bloated.
Its a better idea to add a separate Ukrainian tree with a Polish sub-tree or vice versa, Polish tree with Ukrainian sub-tree.     

[HIMARS_Enjoyer 182]

21 minutes ago, Raiden_Black said:

 

Russian TT is already oversaturated. And there are many other variants, new vehicles and prototypes still left to be added to the Ru tree.
Adding a whole Ukrainian sub tree will make the Ru tree even more bloated.
Its a better idea to add a separate Ukrainian tree with a Polish sub-tree or vice versa, Polish tree with Ukrainian sub-tree.     

Russiat TT have many tanks to add. Black Hawk, T-72BM-2(it`s interesting mod), wheeled tanks and BTR`s

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by HIMARS_Enjoyer

[Raiden_Black 1,875]

5 minutes ago, HIMARS_Enjoyer said:

NIZH ERA weights not more than Kontakt-1. Container(same as Kontakt-1 container) with Nizh ERA weights around 4.4 kg, if i remember correctly, and container with Kontakt-1 ERA weights 5.2 kg....

It`s weight of Nizh modules. For example, on T-64 BM-2 used ХСЧКВ-19А modules. 1.4 kg per each block 

Weight of Kontakt-1 container is around 3kg+1.4 kg ХСЧКВ-19А module weights.

Compare it to 5.2 kg of Kontakt-1 ERA with container.

Thanks for the info,
But are the weight calculation correct? As in ERA charges + container for each block?
The original nozh ERA blocks on T-64 Bulats were big containers with additional steel on top of them (to increase its effectiveness). But the excess weight of Nozh application at the front, caused disblance in the whole platform and resultant excess wear on the automotive components (the reason for which, BM1 Bulats were put on temporary storage and work on BM2 Bulats started to address the issues)
The soviet T-64 BVs were made with K-1s weight in mind, the excess weight of early Nozh ERA on BVs modified to Bulats caused the issues.
In the meantime, whilst work on BM2 Bulat was ongoing, T-64BVs were upgraded to BV zr. 2017 standards with nozh but the approach taken was different. The Nozh ERA were put in K-1 blocks instead to decrease the weight of the tank's front. (Hence T-64 Zr. 2017 looks much like the earlier K-1 equipped T-64BV). And I think, this is the application/modification you are referring to?
But this nozh inside the K-1 blocks approach decreased Nozh's original effective intentions (as was applied on the Bulats, large containers with steel plate on top).
~ This is what I've learned going through the internet (as we all do) ... might be wrong in some places but not all. Happy to discuss more.
.
But anyways, coming to original discussion point, nozh was made in very few numbers .... and any tank donated by NATO like the T-72s are upgraded with standard K-1 blocks due to scarcity and rarity of nozh blocks.
Same would've definitely applied to the Leopard 1s as well if hypothetically Germany decided/decides to donate Leopard 1.

[HIMARS_Enjoyer 182]

25 minutes ago, HIMARS_Enjoyer said:

NIZH ERA weights not more than Kontakt-1. Container(same as Kontakt-1 container) with Nizh ERA weights around 4.4 kg, if i remember correctly, and container with Kontakt-1 ERA weights 5.2 kg....

It`s weight of Nizh modules. For example, on T-64 BM-2 used ХСЧКВ-19А modules. 1.4 kg per each block 

Weight of Kontakt-1 container is around 3kg+1.4 kg ХСЧКВ-19А module weights.

Compare it to 5.2 kg of Kontakt-1 ERA with container.

 

Addition: 3kg weights container without mounting.

Even if put 2 modules in 1 container, it will be still only 600g more weight than Kontakt-1

[HIMARS_Enjoyer 182]

2 minutes ago, Raiden_Black said:

Thanks for the info,
But are the weight calculation correct? As in ERA charges + container for each block?
The original nozh ERA blocks on T-64 Bulats were big containers with additional steel on top of them (to increase its effectiveness). But the excess weight of Nozh application at the front, caused disblance in the whole platform and resultant excess wear on the automotive components (the reason for which, BM1 Bulats were put on temporary storage and work on BM2 Bulats started to address the issues)
The soviet T-64 BVs were made with K-1s weight in mind, the excess weight of early Nozh ERA on BVs modified to Bulats caused the issues.
In the meantime, whilst work on BM2 Bulat was ongoing, T-64BVs were upgraded to BV zr. 2017 standards with nozh but the approach taken was different. The Nozh ERA were put in K-1 blocks instead to decrease the weight of the tank's front. (Hence T-64 Zr. 2017 looks much like the earlier K-1 equipped T-64BV). And I think, this is the application/modification you are referring to?
But this nozh inside the K-1 blocks approach decreased Nozh's original effective intentions (as was applied on the Bulats, large containers with steel plate on top).
~ This is what I've learned going through the internet (as we all do) ... might be wrong in some places but not all. Happy to discuss more.
.
But anyways, coming to original discussion point, nozh was made in very few numbers .... and any tank donated by NATO like the T-72s are upgraded with standard K-1 blocks due to scarcity and rarity of nozh blocks.
Same would've definitely applied to the Leopard 1s as well if hypothetically Germany decided/decides to donate Leopard 1.

".... and any tank donated by NATO like the T-72s are upgraded with standard K-1 blocks"

Nizh is used in Ukrainian tanks and not in tanks that we got from our partners, cuz Ukr tanks modified to not have problems with balance, due to different weight of ERA modules. 

Calculations are correct for T-64 BV zr.2017/2022 which are using Nizh ERA inside of Kontakt-1 containers. About Bulat`s side armour i dont know, and about frontal armor and turret armor, they are much bigger. "The original nozh ERA blocks on T-64 Bulats were big containers with additional steel on top of them"

Original T-64 B have 3 or 4 frontal body plate, and bulat have 5 layers+ 30mm steel on top of them+ ERA+ 15mm steel plate over ERA, to not have problems with shrapnel and 7.62/12.7 mm bullets, which will not detonate ERA, but still will damage it.

"But anyways, coming to original discussion point, nozh was made in very few numbers"

We have enough Nizh ERA to cover our tanks in it.

"But this nozh inside the K-1 blocks approach decreased Nozh's original effective intentions"

Side armour Nizh ERA not so effective as usual only if angle of attack = 75-90 degrees. Its working as usual Kontakt-1 ERA when that happens. It`s still have explosive material inside.

"Same would've definitely applied to the Leopard 1s as well if hypothetically Germany decided/decides to donate Leopard 1."

I dont think Leo1A5 will be covered in ERA without any serious modification, cuz it`s still gives around 3 tons to tank, which can unbalance the tank and possibly fasten the detail break.

 

 

[Raiden_Black 1,875]

39 minutes ago, HIMARS_Enjoyer said:

Black Hawk

 

* Black Eagle i.e Obj 640

[HIMARS_Enjoyer 182]

Ah yes. I translated it wrong, thanks for correction

1 minute ago, Raiden_Black said:

* Black Eagle i.e Obj 640

 

[Bigboi_SaiGon 20]

@YontzeeFrom my respect for this post, I have chosen "Yes" and "No"

• Yes because Ukraine Armored Vehicle are having some gems in it and I want UKR vehicles participated in this game.
• No because I found out that Ukraine have some major problems like no air tree, helicopter tree ( If they had, it's just a knockoff of the USSR tree. No offensive.) I felt like the Ukraine should started at rank 6 not the 4 like Israel because their base tank are T-64,T-84 and derivatives, BTRs, SPG and some modify SPAAG and SAM. And those are highly effective though.( T34 and T54/55 were invented in Kharkov/Kharkiv. I knew it but it is belong to the Ukraine SSR not the modern Ukraine.). The last one is the tree is big but not big enough to form a independent tree and not small enough to form a sub-tree like the Finnish/S-African tree.

So my suggestion is kept the Ukraine tech tree in the USSR tree but have Second Ground Tab which could be a precedent for all other trees. Players need grind to 9.0 ( T64A-1979) either they can choose to continue to grind the main tech tree or the can choose to grind the second ground tree. So they can use the same Air and Heli tree. But's when come to Mixed battle they will be separated from the main tree( Quite difficult for the Devs and matchmakers). They used to stand in the same side but now they stand head to head.

I made this because I don't want to grind another Soviet-ish tree and I have works and class to do. And I don't want people to harass each other for what problems which I don't care but I feel bad when War Thunder's  players are being teared apart for World major problems.

[_AlexV 223]

I don't support this, some gaijin developers are russian and remember they never added ukrainian decal for national day since the game release? Also remember the drama 8 years ago with Russian players and Ukrainian players when the UA flag was added & removed? I dont want to see a big drama again.

 

 

This tech tree won't come forever.

[Yontzee 1,673]

3 hours ago, Bigboi_SaiGon said:

@YontzeeFrom my respect for this post, I have chosen "Yes" and "No"

• Yes because Ukraine Armored Vehicle are having some gems in it and I want UKR vehicles participated in this game.
• No because I found out that Ukraine have some major problems like no air tree, helicopter tree ( If they had, it's just a knockoff of the USSR tree. No offensive.) I felt like the Ukraine should started at rank 6 not the 4 like Israel because their base tank are T-64,T-84 and derivatives, BTRs, SPG and some modify SPAAG and SAM. And those are highly effective though.( T34 and T54/55 were invented in Kharkov/Kharkiv. I knew it but it is belong to the Ukraine SSR not the modern Ukraine.). The last one is the tree is big but not big enough to form a independent tree and not small enough to form a sub-tree like the Finnish/S-African tree.

So my suggestion is kept the Ukraine tech tree in the USSR tree but have Second Ground Tab which could be a precedent for all other trees. Players need grind to 9.0 ( T64A-1979) either they can choose to continue to grind the main tech tree or the can choose to grind the second ground tree. So they can use the same Air and Heli tree. But's when come to Mixed battle they will be separated from the main tree( Quite difficult for the Devs and matchmakers). They used to stand in the same side but now they stand head to head.

I made this because I don't want to grind another Soviet-ish tree and I have works and class to do. And I don't want people to harass each other for what problems which I don't care but I feel bad when War Thunder's  players are being teared apart for World major problems.

I thought about this same idea. I think it’s not a bad idea to be able to tab between the two nations within the USSR tree. That way both nations have full access to USSR vehicles since it’s USSR tree and don’t conflict each other which increases its chances of being added to the game. However, I just think as of right now it’s a Russia tree since there’s no other representation amongst post-Soviet states so I wanted to come up with something solid.
 

I will say with Ukraine does have some fun developments of Soviet aircraft and helicopters  like the MiG-29MU1 or MU2 which fires locally developed ‘Gran’ air-to-air’ missiles or enhanced R-27ER1 and R-27ET1 missiles, the Su-27UBM1, Su-25UBM1, Mi-24PU1, Mi-2MSB-2, etc. The idea is the same as when other nations locally upgrade US F-16’s or other aircraft. 
If Ukraine receives or is donated aircraft like the F-16 in the future, it could change things a bit too similarly to how the German tree has both Soviet, American, and other aircraft.

 

Anyways, again I really appreciate it and understand. Especially the vehicle grinding. Thanks for solid respectful feedback 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Yontzee

[Yontzee 1,673]

SBA Novator, or 'Innovator'. The Novator is a based on a Ford F-550 chassis that can be equipped with different modules such as light or heavy machine gun mounts. This one features an "Amulet' Combat module with the Barrier-212 ATGM system capable of firing the RK-2S which has around 800mm of penetration behind ERA thanks to its Tandem-HEAT warhead. It also can fire the RK-2OF missile which is equipped with an HE-FRAG warhead. It's a lightly armored vehicle capable of high speeds that can only protect against up to 7.62mm and would make an excellent mobile tank destroyer. Possibly replace the BTR-RD for more diversity.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Yontzee

[HIMARS_Enjoyer 182]

6 minutes ago, Yontzee said:

SBA Novator, or 'Innovator'. The Novator is a highly modified Ford F-550 that can be equipped with different modules such as light or heavy machine gun mounts. This one features a Barrier-212 ATGM system capable of firing the RK-2S which has around 800mm of penetration behind ERA thanks to its Tandem-HEAT warhead. It also can fire the RK-2OF missile which is equipped with an HE-FRAG warhead. It's a lightly armored vehicle capable of high speeds that can only protect against up to 7.62mm and would make an excellent mobile tank destroyer. Possibly replace the BTR-RD for more diversity.

From Ford F-550 there is only chassis and engine as i know. So i think better to say it`s based on Ford F-550 chassis.

[HIMARS_Enjoyer 182]

By the way, i saw few of this SBA`s. They looking better in UAF pixel camo.

[Yontzee 1,673]

5 minutes ago, HIMARS_Enjoyer said:

From Ford F-550 there is only chassis and engine as i know. So i think better to say it`s based on Ford F-550 chassis.

Bad wording, its been corrected. 

[DMYEugen 688]

Any of the BTRs equipped with the GROM turret would be nice to see as well.

 

GROM:

Spoiler

 

BTR-4:

Spoiler

 

BTR-70:

Spoiler

 

BTR-80 (Turkmenistani):

Spoiler

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by DMYEugen

[HIMARS_Enjoyer 182]

16 minutes ago, DMYEugen said:

Any of the BTRs equipped with the GROM turret would be nice to see as well.

 

GROM:

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BTR-4:

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BTR-70:

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BTR-80 (Turkmenistani):

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Only BTR-4, cuz BTR-70 and 80 probably reserved by snail for USSR tech tree

But there is already proposition of adding BTR-4, and different weapon module don`t give this BTR any advantage over proposed BTR-4. Only bigger height of BTR, which is already massive