Tornado PGM 500/2000 - Germany getting screwed over yet again

[FurinaBestArchon 4,618]

1 hour ago, IngegnerMacchi said:

"germany get screwed over again". you are joking. you got an event tornado with kormoran missiles at lower br than the others with said weapon system the others didn't get.

Which are absolutely useless? I'm not sure what your problem is here (chances are, you never touched the Kormonans and never bothered to listen to people who did), that Tornado's only useful trait is that its lower in BRs because it lacks GBU's, Kormorans are beyond useless.

 

1 hour ago, IngegnerMacchi said:

stop complaining over nothing, you always get all but the end of the stick

Do we? We haven't received any new top tier vehicles for the TT since November 2020 (not counting the 2PL) and we're always late to the air party as well (MiG-29 added a patch later than the Russian one), we only got Tornado at the same time as others. Our best MBT was given to Sweden for free while they have a better version already, we still don't have any of our modern 8x8's or the working 6x6's (RadKampf wasn't even working IRL, the turret lacked pretty much all the systems and the hull was just for drive testing), our Puma is so bug riddled that even when Gaijin "fixes it", they still make sure it's worse than the other vehicles (MK 30/2 ABM overheats faster than the Bushmaster Mk.44 for one).

 

And we're not getting SPIKE missiles for the Puma either, even though Germany is the primary user of said missile on modern AFVs in Europe and in fact produces it at home. Y'all even got DM53 even though Italy doesn't use it and never used it, nor tested it etc etc. Going by your logic, Italy should lose DM53 now honestly. Italy is even getting a SPIKE variant that is too large to mount on the Freccia instead of the one they actually used (so LR instead of ER).

 

The idiom you used isn't correct either since it's "get the bad end of the stick" or "get the short end of the stick".

 

Listen, I'm not saying Italy doesn't have it bad, but to basically say Germany is getting hand-held couldn't be further from the truth, Germany, along with Japan and Italy is one of the most neglected trees at top tier, and along with them, has been getting the short end of the stick for nearly 3 years already. Germany is still stuck in 2020 basically, while everyone else progressed. Maybe you should move on as well, since it's not 2020 when Germany was one of the best nations, since your obvious hate is showing.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Holouu

[Godvana 533]

11 minutes ago, Il_Signor_Regio said:

And You are wrong, again and again. The Italian conpany Alenia was involved 

there are multiple sources who states this

 

Did you even bother to read what I said? This merger with Alenia happened after the PGM was completed, manufactured, and in service. Alenia was not involved in its development.

[Il_Signor_Regio 153]

11 minutes ago, Godvana said:

 

Did you even bother to read what I said? This merger with Alenia happened after the PGM was completed, manufactured, and in service. Alenia was not involved in its development.

Alenia Who made sistems helped with the sistems of the bombs, even If in a very limited time. Again You don't have an argoument for have PGM in the German Tornado. Is like if I Will ask for AS30 on the Italian F104G only because the German One had them.

11 minutes ago, Godvana said:

 

Did you even bother to read what I said? This merger with Alenia happened after the PGM was completed, manufactured, and in service. Alenia was not involved in its development.

And again, If Alenia didn't do anything in this weapons, why the biggest part of sources stats the opposite?

Edited May 25, 2023 by Il_Signor_Regio

[Godvana 533]

9 minutes ago, Il_Signor_Regio said:

Alenia Who made sistems helped with the sistems of the bombs, even If in a very limited time.

 

A source for this? Because the source I'm using (Jane's) has no mention of any Alenia involvement.

[Hawaiian pizza 92]

7 hours ago, Smin1080p said:

 

As Gunjob has already explained, there's currently no evidence connecting the German IDS to the weapon. Hence why we have not confirmed it for that aircraft.

 

The British GR.1 is photographed to have tested the bombs.Whereas the Italian community submited evidence for the Italian IDS showing a reasonable connection:

 

 

If you would like a developer response on this, please feel free to submit a report with your evidence.

 

 

This matter has already been reported and is under review. The developers have not had time to review and conclude the investigation, so we don't have an outcome to report currently.

When to add Janus to Freccia?
Will there be a new vehicle or an upgrade?

[Smin1080p 60,444]

After further investigation. These are not PGMs. PGMs will now not be added to the Italian IDS. Just the GR.1:

 

[_Iluminas_ 3,769]

if PGM is not possible how about MW1 ?

 

 

[Conte_Baracca 4,547]

10 hours ago, Smin1080p said:

 

As Gunjob has already explained, there's currently no evidence connecting the German IDS to the weapon. Hence why we have not confirmed it for that aircraft.

 

The British GR.1 is photographed to have tested the bombs.Whereas the Italian community submited evidence for the Italian IDS showing a reasonable connection:

 

 

If you would like a developer response on this, please feel free to submit a report with your evidence.

 

 

This matter has already been reported and is under review. The developers have not had time to review and conclude the investigation, so we don't have an outcome to report currently.

There is as much evidence connecting it to the German IDS as there is the AIM-9J to the Italian F-104S or flares for the Turkish/Italian F-104S.  Exactly the same kind of evidence in fact.  This is not an excuse.  If it is balance decision @Smin1080p  fine.  But just because there isn't a picture of it lying next to the German plane doesn't mean anything.  In fact if you are taking pictures of stuff on display next to aircraft it isn't unheard of for that ordnance to require upgrades to the airframe and it being a marketing ploy to get that investment as well.   In fact the upgrades of the ASSTA modifications make the German IDS BETTER quipped to use the PGM than the Italian Tornado.

 

I'm really tired of the arbitrary application of standards in this game.  Just make the decisions based on balance and good gameplay.  Besides, all of this top tier stuff is fake anyway.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Conte_Baracca

[Smin1080p 60,444]

2 minutes ago, Conte_Baracca said:

There is as much evidence connecting it to the German IDS as there is the AIM-9J to the Italian F-104S or flares for the Turkish/Italian F-104S.  Exactly the same kind of evidence in fact.  This is not an excuse.  If it is balance decision @Smin1080p  fine.  But just because there isn't a picture.  In fact the upgrades of the ASSTA modifications make the German IDS Better equipped to use the PGM than the Italian Tornado.

 

Neither the German IDS or Italian will get PGMs now. Just the GR.1 which it was tested on.

 

The image on further review was proven not to even be PGMs. 

[Thodin 6,783]

56 minutes ago, _Iluminas_ said:

if PGM is not possible how about MW1 ?

 

 

 

The question would be: How these could be used in an ingame enviroment. And if its actually meaningful or would it be just a pointless addition?

[Lord_Prism 1,826]

1 hour ago, Smin1080p said:

After further investigation. These are not PGMs. PGMs will now not be added to the Italian IDS. Just the GR.1:

 

I think that's a fair decision, but will Italy and Germany be receiving anything similar in terms of standoff range? 

[Smin1080p 60,444]

9 minutes ago, Lord_Prism said:

I think that's a fair decision, but will Italy and Germany be receiving anything similar in terms of standoff range? 

 

Not with the current patch, but we will continue to look for options and review suggestions like this. 

[Firestarter__ 106]

19 minutes ago, Thodin said:

 

The question would be: How these could be used in an ingame enviroment. And if its actually meaningful or would it be just a pointless addition?

Exactly. MW-1 (or JP233 for that matter) are a problematic addition in that theyre very specialised anti runway munitions. In theory they could be used against light vehicle formations (and if i recall the user manual or something along those lines suggests that if necessary you may use them in that manner) however for them to work effectively you need to fly straight and level. problematic at best.

[_Iluminas_ 3,769]

9 minutes ago, Firestarter__ said:

Exactly. MW-1 (or JP233 for that matter) are a problematic addition in that theyre very specialised anti runway munitions. In theory they could be used against light vehicle formations (and if i recall the user manual or something along those lines suggests that if necessary you may use them in that manner) however for them to work effectively you need to fly straight and level. problematic at best.

they are not only against runways they also have anti tank bomblets or mines

[Thodin 6,783]

1 hour ago, Firestarter__ said:

Exactly. MW-1 (or JP233 for that matter) are a problematic addition in that theyre very specialised anti runway munitions. In theory they could be used against light vehicle formations (and if i recall the user manual or something along those lines suggests that if necessary you may use them in that manner) however for them to work effectively you need to fly straight and level. problematic at best.

 

Nope, there are different ones, one MW version is with anti-tank heat bomblets to take out tank formations.

 

What I mean is, that currently its impossible to approach the ground forces battlefield with a Tornado with just bombs or guided bombs which require to hold a laser lock upon impact. As soon as you get closer you get locked up by Pantsirs and other SPAAs. They're absurdly powerful and the Tornado can't maneuver (danger of wing snaps and yee you need to hold a lock^^). The Tornado has no jammers modeled and flares/chaffs don't work either. All they need to do is poin'n'click and you can't do alot to prevent this. You have no defense.

 

All what is currently working is long range stand off F&F weaponry- Like TV bombs or Mavericks etc.... Laser guided bombs won't work anymore, you get shot down when you try to climb. Also....to lock targets and maintain the lock upon impact takes too long...you're too vulnerable. 

You also get 100% taken down when you try to go in low alt to drop some dumb ammunition. This MW-1 would be the latter category. DOA. Its currently either long range F&F or nothing. The Pantsir / Contrail patch effectivly removed GBU's and dumb ordnance out of top tier.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Thodin

[CodyBlues 323]

3 hours ago, Lord_Prism said:

I think that's a fair decision, but will Italy and Germany be receiving anything similar in terms of standoff range? 

Man, why shaft italy like that tho?

[Охраняет-Камни 6,650]

11 hours ago, Holouu said:

And we're not getting SPIKE missiles for the Puma either, even though Germany is the primary user of said missile on modern AFVs in Europe and in fact produces it at home. Y'all even got DM53 even though Italy doesn't use it and never used it, nor tested it etc etc. Going by your logic, Italy should lose DM53 now honestly. Italy is even getting a SPIKE variant that is too large to mount on the Freccia instead of the one they actually used (so LR instead of ER).

.

The variant Italy gets is LR, it's just a statcard mistake. Also Freccia is an earlier tech compared to Puma, so it's fair to see it earlier in the game. I can understand Israeli complaints, but Germans, not really. Germany is still in 3 big and gets more attention from devs compared to "minor" nations, except maybe Sweden. 

PS you can take your DM53 back as it doesn't make any difference  just an excuse to keep Arietes at high battle rating.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Охраняет-Камни

[Hawaiian pizza 92]

8 hours ago, Smin1080p said:

 

Not with the current patch, but we will continue to look for options and review suggestions like this. 

As a community moderator but you are afraid to reply any italian discrimination question?

[Smin1080p 60,444]

1 hour ago, 尊贵的原神玩家 said:

As a community moderator but you are afraid to reply any italian discrimination question?

 

Because your question has nothing to do with this topic and has already been answered in the appropriate topic.

[MBDA_Meteor 20]

Why are Italian players and British players fighting in the German thread? 
Please go to another thread. This thread is for German Tornado, not about who developed the PGM.

[AVROVULCANXH558 349]

On 25/05/2023 at 12:08, x_Shini_ said:

BUT it is the truth that germany gets shafted,

 lol

 

 

It's not like they get the best treatment each update.

Edited May 26, 2023 by AVROVULCANXH558

[AVROVULCANXH558 349]

15 hours ago, _Iluminas_ said:

if PGM is not possible how about MW1 ?

 

 

As long as other cluster munitions are added, like BL755 or CBU-20, I could agree with this. BL755 would be a good addition as it could be used by the UK, Germany and Italy on many of their aircraft

Edited May 26, 2023 by AVROVULCANXH558

[x_Shini_ 434]

13 minutes ago, AVROVULCANXH558 said:

 lol

 

 

It's not like they get the best treatment each update

If that is sacrasm you are completly wrong, in what way would they get the best treatment?

[Faster_Boiiiii 753]

9 hours ago, Охраняет-Камни said:

except maybe Sweden. 

lol no, definitely not the air tree lmao

 

15 hours ago, Firestarter__ said:

Exactly. MW-1 (or JP233 for that matter) are a problematic addition in that theyre very specialised anti runway munitions. In theory they could be used against light vehicle formations (and if i recall the user manual or something along those lines suggests that if necessary you may use them in that manner) however for them to work effectively you need to fly straight and level. problematic at best.

who cares about how and when and why to use them. thats up for the player to decide and figure out. its still explosives that can do some amount of damage to ground vehicles. 

[Охраняет-Камни 6,650]

12 minutes ago, Faster_Boiiiii said:

lol no, definitely not the air tree lmao

Yeah, true XD