Tornado PGM 500/2000 - Germany getting screwed over yet again

[Lord_Prism 1,827]

2 hours ago, AVROVULCANXH558 said:

 lol

 

 

It's not like they get the best treatment each update.

No, that badge goes to a different nation, one a bit further to the east 

13 hours ago, CodyBlues said:

Man, why shaft italy like that tho?

If they decided to let italy keep the PGMs, then I and others would've likely started a campaign to get the PGMs on the ASSTA1 as well 

[CodyBlues 323]

1 hour ago, Lord_Prism said:

No, that badge goes to a different nation, one a bit further to the east 

If they decided to let italy keep the PGMs, then I and others would've likely started a campaign to get the PGMs on the ASSTA1 as well 

And I’d have been ok with that.

 

it’s not like Italy is drowning in CAS right now.

[Thodin 6,784]

41 minutes ago, CodyBlues said:

it’s not like Italy is drowning in CAS right now.

 

Germany either, Tornado shined exactly for one update period. After the contrail / Pantsir Sky Guardian patch its like this: Germany has no GF RB CAS jet, same as before the Tornado happened.

 

Just wounder why. Other nations had their fun with GBU jets for over a year and almost immeadetly after Germany gets FINALLY its own GBU jet after a year of hoping/waiting, the whole mechanic gets indirectly nerfed out of GFRB.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Thodin

[EmZe 0]

Why not give the AGM-65s to the German and Italian tornado's and PGM to the British? the German and Italian ones carried the 65s

[TerikG2014 1,389]

4 hours ago, Master_Zimpulo said:

Why not give the AGM-65s to the German and Italian tornado's and PGM to the British? the German and Italian ones carried the 65s

Unfortunately  there's no solid evidence  for that, there's a lot of claims but very little hard fact

[Firestarter__ 106]

19 hours ago, Faster_Boiiiii said:

who cares about how and when and why to use them. thats up for the player to decide and figure out. its still explosives that can do some amount of damage to ground vehicles. 

personally like that logic, however ive never heard of lofting dispensers like MW-1 being a tactic. Guess if we got it we could give it a go

[EmZe 0]

3 hours ago, TerikG2014 said:

Unfortunately  there's no solid evidence  for that, there's a lot of claims but very little hard fact

Im not too sure on the rules abour source reliablity but 

 

https://cmano-db.com/aircraft/396/

https://cmano-db.com/aircraft/402/

 

italian and german ids being listed as carrying mavericks in their loadout

Edited May 27, 2023 by Master_Zimpulo
typo in link

[Flame2512 3,386]

5 minutes ago, Master_Zimpulo said:

Im not too sure on the rules abour source reliablity but 

 

https://cmano-db.com/aircraft/396/

https://cmano-db.com/aircraft/402/

 

italian and german ids being listed as carrying mavericks in their loadout

 

That website is listing the Tornado's stats in the game CMANO (Command: Modern Air / Naval Operations). It is not a reliable site at all for real world performance. 

[WNxDavid990 166]

There are reports that state mavericks were fitted but not carried. There is even a UK Parliamentary report about them being fitted, but no physical images exist that show them being fitted/carried.

[EmZe 0]

My bad then sorry

[不是很能抗压 1,265]

How many PGMs can GR1 carrys? 2 or 4?

[BagelIsMyWaifu 838]

On 25/05/2023 at 22:21, Firestarter__ said:

Exactly. MW-1 (or JP233 for that matter) are a problematic addition in that theyre very specialised anti runway munitions. In theory they could be used against light vehicle formations (and if i recall the user manual or something along those lines suggests that if necessary you may use them in that manner) however for them to work effectively you need to fly straight and level. problematic at best.

JP233 is specialized anti runway. MW-1 is multi-purpose and also includes a "normal" cluster HEAT loadout

[Flame2512 3,386]

6 hours ago, 不是很能抗压 said:

How many PGMs can GR1 carrys? 2 or 4?

 

We'll have to see what Gaijin give it, but it should be able to carry 4 x PGM 500 or 4 x PGM 2000, or a mix of the two.

[TerikG2014 1,389]

6 hours ago, 不是很能抗压 said:

How many PGMs can GR1 carrys? 2 or 4?

Hard to tell looks like a max of 3 tot 4 there's pictures  of 2000 on both belly and wing pylons 

Edited May 27, 2023 by TerikG2014

[Flame2512 3,386]

10 minutes ago, Flame2512 said:

 

We'll have to see what Gaijin give it, but it should be able to carry 4 x PGM 500 or 4 x PGM 2000, or a mix of the two.

 

Actually it looks like the fins on the PGM 2000 might be too long for two of them to fit on the shoulder pylons

[Il_Signor_Regio 153]

On 27/05/2023 at 06:08, TerikG2014 said:

Unfortunately  there's no solid evidence  for that, there's a lot of claims but very little hard fact

If for the PGM devs took as connection the weapons displayed on the ground, we are completly fine, the Italian one was the only showed with Maveriks

[TerikG2014 1,389]

45 minutes ago, Il_Signor_Regio said:

If for the PGM devs took as connection the weapons displayed on the ground, we are completly fine, the Italian one was the only showed with Maveriks

unfortunately it wasn't it was the pictures and reports of it on the GR.1

[Il_Signor_Regio 153]

6 minutes ago, TerikG2014 said:

unfortunately it wasn't it was the pictures and reports of it on the GR.1

For the Italian Tornado initially they took as connection the weapons on the ground, soo. Even if the photo didn't include the PGM they took the weapons on ground as a reference. In this one You can clearly see Mavericks

Edited May 30, 2023 by Il_Signor_Regio

[CodyBlues 323]

3 hours ago, Il_Signor_Regio said:

For the Italian Tornado initially they took as connection the weapons on the ground, soo. Even if the photo didn't include the PGM they took the weapons on ground as a reference. In this one You can clearly see Mavericks

Kinda weird that they aren’t putting the PGM on because they aren’t in the photos(like they originally thought) but they won’t add the mavericks even though they are in the photo.

[TerikG2014 1,389]

12 hours ago, Il_Signor_Regio said:

For the Italian Tornado initially they took as connection the weapons on the ground, soo. Even if the photo didn't include the PGM they took the weapons on ground as a reference. In this one You can clearly see Mavericks

Unfortunately  just being there doesn't help we don't know what hard points it was comparable with or how many it could carry.

[da12thmonkey 43]

So the difference is we have seen PGM fitted to Tornado (in this case a UK one) so we know it was carried by the aircraft, while we've not seen any Mavericks actually fitted to pylons on Tornado? Italian Tornado thought to be seen with PGM only made Italy a candidate by extension of its use being proven by other air forces.

If there was a British, Saudi, German or whatever Tornado spotted with Mavericks on the pylons, it would also be added to Italy because we have seen an Italian Tornado displayed alongside Mavs?

 

I suppose that's consistent given the French themselves don't use PGM but it's on UAE Mirage 2000-5 (2000-9 actually, but Dassault say 2000-9 "belongs to the new Mirage 2000-5 class"), and was displayed next to a French M2k in 1994

[MythicPi 593]

Not sure if this has already been raised, but wouldn't a good solution just be to make the AS.34 Kormoran capable of locking onto and hitting ground vehicles? We already know it has a secondary land attack capability, but gaijin has that land attack capability set to an (afaik) arbitrary 15m target size, making it impossible to actually use against ground targets in-game.

 

The obvious issue is not that Britain has a missile that exceeds the range of the German IDS' PGM's, but that Britain is receiving a missile that can deal with the nightmare that the Pantsir is. Seems the easiest solution would just be to remove that arbitrary 15m size line from the Kormoran. Itd have less HE filler than the PGM, but similar range, and it comes with the advantage of already being modelled in-game, all that's needed is for gaijin to remove 1 line of code.

 

Would that be a possibility @Smin1080p seeing as afaik the target size limitation of the Kormoran in-game was likely just a balancing decision in the first place anyways?

 

As it stands, the only other option for Germany I can think of is either modelling the Taurus KEPD with reduced range as @Holouupreviously mentioned, or adding the AGM-88 which gaijin recently said they didn't want to add. The Pantsir is very clearly downright oppressive and very few if any nations have anything that even comes close to checking it, never mind an actual counter, which has led to a massive spike in the Russian top tier winrate (again)

[Thodin 6,784]

22 hours ago, Il_Signor_Regio said:

If for the PGM devs took as connection the weapons displayed on the ground, we are completly fine, the Italian one was the only showed with Maveriks

 

It won't be accepted. I tried it with a photo showing GBU-24's in front of both Tornado IDS inner wing pylons on an exhibit... Was quite obvious they wanted to show that they could be mounted there. Unlike the ingame version, which strangely won't allow it. Despite the all heavy weight pylons are technically identical.

 

Now it doesn't matter anyways, cause GBUs are dead, you can't bring them on target anymore, Contrails and Pantsir can't be evaded. Tornado needs some kind of standoff weapon, otherwise its doa. Tbh, for an 11.7 rank VII Strike Jet its loadout is super anemic, just MK1000 dumb bombs and GBU-16 (or a single GBU-24). 2x 30mm cannons where the ground belt requires you to spend 130 spawn points....ammo belt filled up with alot junk like practice round (???) ...thats really bad. There are 9.0 A-4 Skyhawks with more CAS options to mount and for my 10.7 BR F-4F I need to use the mousewheel extensivly to scroll through a plethora of CAS loadout options. 

 

If it helps, Ive read some posts from Luftwaffe veterans (mainly ground crew guys) in an old forum archive , which talked about Mavericks and Tornados. So Luftwaffe apparently used up all remaining Mavericks in Storage for training shots from Tornados until everything was emptied. End of 90ties or early 2000's, as F-4F was slowly phased out, thus remaing weapon stocks had to be used up. So it somehow seems to be possible to use Mavericks from Tornados, but there's just brochure material stating this, no photos or vids aviable.

 

Tornado as it is, is pretty disappointing. Its only good to drop MK1000's on Air RB bases. Thats all.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Thodin

[ueberman 79]

1 hour ago, Thodin said:

If it helps, Ive read some posts from Luftwaffe veterans (mainly ground crew guys) in an old forum archive , which talked about Mavericks and Tornados. So Luftwaffe apparently used up all remaining Mavericks in Storage for training shots from Tornados until everything was emptied. End of 90ties or early 2000's, as F-4F was slowly phased out, thus remaing weapon stocks had to be used up. So it somehow seems to be possible to use Mavericks from Tornados, but there's just brochure material stating this, no photos or vids aviable.

I forgot which version of the Mavericks did the Luftwaffe have again?

Thanks in advance for the Answer.

[Smin1080p_WT 60,444]

2 hours ago, MythicPi said:

Not sure if this has already been raised, but wouldn't a good solution just be to make the AS.34 Kormoran capable of locking onto and hitting ground vehicles? We already know it has a secondary land attack capability, but gaijin has that land attack capability set to an (afaik) arbitrary 15m target size, making it impossible to actually use against ground targets in-game.

 

The obvious issue is not that Britain has a missile that exceeds the range of the German IDS' PGM's, but that Britain is receiving a missile that can deal with the nightmare that the Pantsir is. Seems the easiest solution would just be to remove that arbitrary 15m size line from the Kormoran. Itd have less HE filler than the PGM, but similar range, and it comes with the advantage of already being modelled in-game, all that's needed is for gaijin to remove 1 line of code.

 

Would that be a possibility @Smin1080p seeing as afaik the target size limitation of the Kormoran in-game was likely just a balancing decision in the first place anyways?

 

As it stands, the only other option for Germany I can think of is either modelling the Taurus KEPD with reduced range as @Holouupreviously mentioned, or adding the AGM-88 which gaijin recently said they didn't want to add. The Pantsir is very clearly downright oppressive and very few if any nations have anything that even comes close to checking it, never mind an actual counter, which has led to a massive spike in the Russian top tier winrate (again)

 

Currently there is insufficient information to give the AS.34 Kormoran ground attack capabilities implemented in the exact way described here. 

 

There is some limited information about a ground attack role, but some sources also point towards the improved Kormoran 2.

 

As we have already mentioned AGM-88 / ALARM and other such munitions are a future consideration with much more work and study to be done before implementation can be considered.