Tornado PGM 500/2000 - Germany getting screwed over yet again

[Thodin 6,784]

10 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

 

Currently there is insufficient information to give the AS.34 Kormoran ground attack capabilities implemented in the exact way described here. 

 

There is some limited information about a ground attack role, but some sources also point towards the improved Kormoran 2.

 

As we have already mentioned AGM-88 / ALARM and other such munitions are a future consideration with much more work and study to be done before implementation can be considered. 

 

You know, this is a computer game and at one point you just have to make things possible. Cause Strike Craft without suitable weapons are super pointless. At these high BRs you just need to give it more than just MK1000 dumb bombs and Komorans which have just no purpose ingame (no ship targets in Ground Battles RB and Naval Battles are BR capped around 6-7 BR).

 

There are non existing F-16 flying around. And a Yak prototype with fantasy radar and fantasy weapons. Where  is your "Currently there is insufficient information" point there? Just do it, as you did with the Yak and the F-16AJ.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Thodin

[Smin1080p_WT 60,444]

6 minutes ago, Thodin said:

 

You know, this is a computer game and at one point you just have to make things possible. Cause Strike Craft without suitable weapons are super pointless. At these high BRs you just need to give it more than just MK1000 dumb bombs and Komorans which have just no purpose ingame (no ship targets in Ground Battles RB and Naval Battles are BR capped around 6-7 BR).

 

There are non existing F-16 flying around. And a Yak prototype with fantasy radar and fantasy weapons. Where  is your "Currently there is insufficient information" point there? Just do it, as you did with the Yak and the F-16AJ.

 

Sadly we cannot just make every missile be a combined air-to-sea / air-to-ground / air-to-air simply because this is a game. There is still and always will be a grounded realism of vehicles and mechanics. 

 

So we will not give missiles capabilities they did not have. Suggestions are more than welcome for aircraft or weaponry that can fill these roles (we have a few in mind of our own), but we have no plans to implement features of missiles that did not exist. If there is proper information to show it did, then we can review it. "Just do it", sadly is not something that will lead to changes.

 

The F-16AJ and Yak-141 have already been explained and answered and are not relevant to the request here. 

[Thodin 6,784]

18 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

The F-16AJ and Yak-141 have already been explained and answered and are not relevant to the request here. 

 

Yep, I've read this discussion as well. For the Yak, the possible loadout and radar components where guessed and imagined, like what could have been possible. The F-16AJ was more or less just a glossy brochure, a suggestion from General Dynamics to Japan... What could be possible and Gajin imagined a jet into War Thunder. Now all what has to be done is to imagine something in favor of Germany

 

I know it will never happen, but alot peaple consider this double standard. When one nation might easily get through with guesswork, why can't we?

 

[Alexanderussss 11]

On 26/05/2023 at 13:44, Faster_Boiiiii said:

lol no, definitely not the air tree lmao

cap, sweden getting a lot of love. Same with the air tech tree, but just bcs it's not getting the Gripen with Meteors, AIM120's, etc it's neglected? nahhh man
Sweden constantly getting new things, recently we had the JA37D, we gonna get the AJS, the ItPsV we got etc. We got a ton of new things, can't say the same for some others like Japan and Italy
Just face it, y'all don't have it that bad. Mig29, one of if not the best planes on toptier, the highest penning tanks on toptier with a good AA. Yes, better things exist, but you don't have it bad just cuz you're not constantly on top in everything.

[MythicPi 593]

1 hour ago, Smin1080p said:

Sadly we cannot just make every missile be a combined air-to-sea / air-to-ground / air-to-air simply because this is a game. There is still and always will be a grounded realism of vehicles and mechanics.

Thanks for the answer, it is unfortunate if thats the path chosen though, considering as you yourself stated, there IS information regarding land attack capabilities, but its limited. The missile can even do so ingame, but only vs targets of sizes greater than 15m which no player ground vehicle fits in...

[x_Shini_ 434]

Only Weaponry that could help the Tornado right now , isnt in the game yet and not anti radar missle is the gbu 54, i honestly hoped they would be the new teased weaponry type, since they would be better against moving targets and realy could be dropped and forgotten at least at low altitude

[AlvisWisla 225]

3 hours ago, Thodin said:

 

Yep, I've read this discussion as well. For the Yak, the possible loadout and radar components where guessed and imagined, like what could have been possible. The F-16AJ was more or less just a glossy brochure, a suggestion from General Dynamics to Japan... What could be possible and Gajin imagined a jet into War Thunder. Now all what has to be done is to imagine something in favor of Germany

 

I know it will never happen, but alot peaple consider this double standard. When one nation might easily get through with guesswork, why can't we?

 

 

There is no imagined stuff, your post is off topic as well.
F-16AJ is quite literally just a Block 15 F-16. That's it, it's real, the very real in-production was proposed the Japan, Japan said no.
Yak-141 is quite literally if the pre-production version entered production. The most imagination there is where the countermeasures were placed, and it's a pretty good prediction.

 

There are no double standards.

Edited June 1, 2023 by RazerVon

[MythicPi 593]

5 hours ago, RazerVon said:

 

There is no imagined stuff, your post is off topic as well.
F-16AJ is quite literally just a Block 15 F-16. That's it, it's real, the very real in-production was proposed the Japan, Japan said no.
Yak-141 is quite literally if the pre-production version entered production. The most imagination there is where the countermeasures were placed, and it's a pretty good prediction.

 

There are no double standards.

 

Ill have to respectfully disagree on the Yak-141. Gainin themselves stated the plane was implemented how they "think" it would've been if it went into production irl.

 

The fact of the matter with the Yak is, it never had countermeasures, it never had the radar mounted, it never had an IRST, and it never had an HMCS. Gaijin added them because other russian planes at the time had them so the Yak "should" too. Its a pretty shaky implementation.

 

There also definitly is a double standard in the implementation of the PGM's on only the Gr.1. Gaijin has stated many times that they add weapons and subsystems used on a certain aircraft in service with another nation for balancing purposes many times before. The greatest example of this being the F-5's, which were notorious for not having RWR's, never had flares in US service, never had Mavs in US service, etc... they were added because the planes would be "bad" without them and "they were used in other nations anyways".

 

In the end, I respect that at the end of the day, this is gaijins game, and its up to them to balance it however theyd like, but I think its unfortunate they dont own up to their decisions being completely arbitrary.

 

Just like the aforementioned target size for the Kormoran's missile seeker, which as Smin says, they dont have enough info to know the actual limits of its ground attack capability and if both the Kormoran and Kormoran 2 can do ground attack, or just the Kormoran 2, but they arent willing to allow the Kormoran to do ground attack for balancing purposes either, leaving germany with no current options despite a VERY obvious option being possible with the elimination of a single line of code and creative/balancing liberty regarding the capabilities of a missile which is  stated  to be capable of ground attack. If they really wanted to, they could even drop the required target radii to 10m instead of 15m, which would still make the missile largely incapable of engaging ground targets, but WOULD allow it to atleast engage very large AA systems like the Pantsir (which is a hair over 10m in length), giving the missile a very niche standoff anti-SAM role, without particularly affecting other ground vehicles in a gamebreaking manner...

 

Its not like were asking for a missile which literally had nothing to do with ground attack to be able to pull double duty either. Were asking for a missile which is stated to be able to pull double duty, but isnt specified to which exact degree, to be buffed slightly to be able to pull double duty as a balancing decision.

Edited June 1, 2023 by MythicPi

[MythicPi 593]

And an extra sidenote;

 

I dont think its particularly fair to german mains either (and this is coming from someone who hasnt really played germany much in the last year+). Germany hasnt received a new rank 7 ground vehicle for OVER 2 YEARS. By the september patch, it will have been almost 3 years since the 2A6 and Flarakrad were added (they were added in Nov 2020). Gaijin has already confirmed theyre yet again not getting anything for rank 7 ground this update either. They dont have any viable top tier IFV, their top "light tank" is pretty meh, their top MBT is pretty middle of the pack at this point, being one of the only top tier MBT's still stuck with gen 1 thermals, the Flarak, although decent, recently got gutted by the SACLOS nerf, and still suffers from the "only 2 missiles at a time and I reload when I WANT to reload, not when the operator wants to reload!". Theyre tied for the least top tier MBT's at 3, and to get 3 in a lineup they NEED to grab the squadron 2PL, and now they arent even getting any standoff munitions to atleast make the Pantsir sweat? 

 

Aside from literally not having the option of playing other nations because they ground out germany first and the grind to top tier is catastrophically bad, why would anyone even bother playing germany ground? They have LITERALLY nothing interesting, exciting or unique for top tier ground battles, with most other nations having equivalent or better tech, except the ever unreliable UHT, which happens to also be an atrociously hard heli to grind, so basicly nobody has it anyways -_-

 

It legitimately feels like gaijin just casually forgot rank 7 Germany existed, and only add stuff to Rank 7 air cuz they noticed they could copy paste it over from another nation.

Edited June 1, 2023 by MythicPi

[Flame2512 3,386]

18 minutes ago, MythicPi said:

The fact of the matter with the Yak is, it never had countermeasures, it never had the radar mounted, it never had an IRST, and it never had an HMCS. Gaijin added them because other russian planes at the time had them so the Yak "should" too. Its a pretty shaky implementation.

 

Gaijin has always implemented prototype vehicles in the configuration they were planned to enter service in. There are examples of this going all the way back to 2013. The Yak-141 is nothing special in that regard.

 

18 minutes ago, MythicPi said:

The greatest example of this being the F-5's, which were notorious for not having RWR's, never had flares in US service, never had Mavs in US service, etc... they were added because the planes would be "bad" without them and "they were used in other nations anyways".

 

Fully agree on the F-5C, but in fairness if you think of the F-5E as being an F-5N then it's pretty accurate.

 

18 minutes ago, MythicPi said:

Just like the aforementioned target size for the Kormoran's missile seeker, which as Smin says, they dont have enough info to know the actual limits of its ground attack capability and if both the Kormoran and Kormoran 2 can do ground attack, or just the Kormoran 2, but they arent willing to allow the Kormoran to do ground attack for balancing purposes either, leaving germany with no current options despite a VERY obvious option being possible with the elimination of a single line of code and creative/balancing liberty regarding the capabilities of a missile which is  stated  to be capable of ground attack. If they really wanted to, they could even drop the required target radii to 10m instead of 15m, which would still make the missile largely incapable of engaging ground targets, but WOULD allow it to atleast engage very large AA systems like the Pantsir (which is a hair over 10m in length), giving the missile a very niche standoff anti-SAM role, without particularly affecting other ground vehicles in a gamebreaking manner...

 

The issue is that the evidence thus far suggests that the Tornado's radar is not capable of detecting small ground targets such as tanks, so even if we assume the Kormoran can lock on to tanks (which there isn't any evidence for either) it begs the question of how you would fire it in game without being able to lock the desired target.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Flame2512

[BagelIsMyWaifu 838]

9 hours ago, Smin1080p said:

 

Currently there is insufficient information to give the AS.34 Kormoran ground attack capabilities implemented in the exact way described here. 

 

There is some limited information about a ground attack role, but some sources also point towards the improved Kormoran 2.

Couldnt you just switch the Kormoran to the Kormoran 2 then? They use the same airframe, so the model doesnt need any work. Only really weight, range and warhead weight.

 

[MythicPi 593]

1 hour ago, Flame2512 said:

Fully agree on the F-5C, but in fairness if you think of the F-5E as being an F-5N then it's pretty accurate.

Its not an F-5N tho, its an F-5E. iirc Gaijin even stated themselves that its NOT an F-5N and that they would not rename it to F-5N. Even if you want to use the F-5N loophole, the F-5N was an adversary aircraft, and shouldnt have all the ground ordinance it does.

 

1 hour ago, Flame2512 said:

The issue is that the evidence thus far suggests that the Tornado's radar is not capable of detecting small ground targets such as tanks, so even if we assume the Kormoran can lock on to tanks (which there isn't any evidence for either) it begs the question of how you would fire it in game without being able to lock the desired target.

First of all, I've never heard of that argument yet as to why the Kormoran is not allowed to target ground vehicles. Second of all, the limiting factor is the Kormoran's radar itself, not the Tornado's, as the Kormoran is the one to have the 15m minimum target size line of code. Its also just kind of weird as a concept since thw Tornado's radar is for all weather navigation and strike capabilties. Seems kinda dumb to have a strike radar incapable of atleast spotting ground targets...

 

 

45 minutes ago, BagelIsMyWaifu said:

Couldnt you just switch the Kormoran to the Kormoran 2 then? They use the same airframe, so the model doesnt need any work. Only really weight, range and warhead weight.

The really weird part is that the Kormoran we have ingame is a weird frankenstein Kormoran 1/2...

 

It has the Kormoran 1 weight, the warhead is up in the air since gaijin doesnt go by stated warhead weight, so it could be either or, and it has the Kormoran 2 range (34km range ingame).

 

If they want to use the argument "its the Kormoran 2 that can do land attack!" All they have to do is reduce/delete the 15m min target size line of code, increase the missile weight by 30kg and add a 2 after "Kormoran" 

Edited June 1, 2023 by MythicPi

[MythicPi 593]

I cannt actually find any good reason why Gaijin doesnt want to just allow the Kormoran to have some land attack capabilities. We KNOW it could, atleast to some degree, the missile is ALREADY ingame, and the code change would take like, 30 seconds, tops.

 

Its literally the ideal solution for everyone involved. Its easy for gaijin to implement, it gives germany much needed standoff capabilities and SOMETHING new for top tier ground battles, and you could reasonably assume it to be possible considering it HAS a secondaey land attack capability.

Edited June 1, 2023 by MythicPi

[NoodleCup31 8,824]

45 minutes ago, BagelIsMyWaifu said:

Couldnt you just switch the Kormoran to the Kormoran 2 then? They use the same airframe, so the model doesnt need any work. Only really weight, range and warhead weight.

 

Absolutely support this.

The MFG Tornado really doesn't belong to 11.0 with dumb bombs as only ground attack ordnance

[Smin1080p_WT 60,444]

49 minutes ago, BagelIsMyWaifu said:

Couldnt you just switch the Kormoran to the Kormoran 2 then? They use the same airframe, so the model doesnt need any work. Only really weight, range and warhead weight.

 

 

It's not even fully clear if Komoran 2 can be used specifically against tanks from Tornado either. 

 

As I said, there is limited information and very little to directly confirm either 1 or 2 can be used by Tornado in the air to ground role in the way being described and expected here. 

 

Any information on that is welcome to be submitted for consideration.

[BagelIsMyWaifu 838]

Doubt Kormoran land attack would be anything fancy radar guided, certainly not against tanks. Most likely just attacking a predefined point using the onboard INS.

 

Could be tied into the point of interest mechanic already used for CCRP and so on.

[BagelIsMyWaifu 838]

25 minutes ago, MythicPi said:

The really weird part is that the Kormoran we have ingame is a weird frankenstein Kormoran 1/2...

 

It has the Kormoran 1 weight, the warhead is up in the air since gaijin doesnt go by stated warhead weight, so it could be either or, and it has the Kormoran 2 range (34km range ingame).

 

If they want to use the argument "its the Kormoran 2 that can do land attack!" All they have to do is reduce/delete the 15m min target size line of code, increase the missile weight by 30kg and add a 2 after "Kormoran" 

Going by this ...somewhat dodgy... website http://www.sistemasdearmas.com.br/asv/kormoran.html, Kormoran 1 actually has 35 km range at higher altitude and 23 km at low alt

Kormoran 2 55 km at high alt, 35km at low alt. It also mentions explosive weight: 56 kg for the K-1 (same as ingame) and 80kg for the K-2

 

... and it shows that the Kormoran 2 is actually different externally to the 1, exhaust would require slight remodelling

[MythicPi 593]

Just found this neat thread about the Kormoran, it allegedly has an anti-radiation seeker as well and will guide towards an emitter if identified, as to if thats true, im not 100% sure, but if it is, it would be perfect in the standoff function vs the Pantsir.

 

[Flame2512 3,386]

1 hour ago, MythicPi said:

Second of all, the limiting factor is the Kormoran's radar itself, not the Tornado's, as the Kormoran is the one to have the 15m minimum target size line of code. Its also just kind of weird as a concept since thw Tornado's radar is for all weather navigation and strike capabilties. Seems kinda dumb to have a strike radar incapable of atleast spotting ground targets...

 

The Tornado's radar in game cannot detect ground targets (only ships), so surely that is a limiting factor itself. In game you need a radar lock to fire a Kormoran, so if the Tornado's radar can't lock tanks you will not be able to fire a Kormoran at tank, even if the missile itself were made capable.

 

This is a photograph of the Tornado's radar screen on the 10 mile range setting. I don't think you will be making out individual tanks from that:

 

Even on the 4 mile setting telling land vehicles from clutter looks doubtful:

Edited June 1, 2023 by Flame2512

[MythicPi 593]

21 minutes ago, Flame2512 said:

In game you need a radar lock to fire a Kormoran, so if the Tornado's radar can't lock tanks you will not be able to fire a Kormoran at tank, even if the missile itself were made capable.

Kormoran thread and documents seem to indicate the planes radar is not required in firing the Kormoran, as it can be shot towards a location and search for a target independently from the sounds of it. The radar lock helps with last minute corrections from the sounds of it. 

 

It also seems like it does in fact have a passive radar receiver to try to pick out a radar emitter before switching to active radar mode if no emitter is identified.

 

This document also states the Tornado has an air to ground function for the Kormoran.

 

ALSO Italy purchased Kormoran missiles, so gaijin allowing the kormoran to perform limited land attack roles would also give Italy a standoff munition vs the Pantsir after it also lost the PGM's.

 

I see literally no downsides to this and am genuinly flabbergasted at the refusal to implement this fix.

 

The missile is LITERALLY otherwise useless ingame. It genuinly makes no sense not to give Italy and the TT german tornado IDS the Kormoran/Kormoran 2 and limited land attack abilities. The only use for it is in custom battles and in sim, except its terrible in the antiship role ingame because its warhead has been modelled as a flat ~80kg of HE, instead of the multi-directional shaped charge meanth to blow apart the ships keel

Edited June 1, 2023 by MythicPi

[Flame2512 3,386]

3 hours ago, MythicPi said:

Kormoran thread and documents seem to indicate the planes radar is not required in firing the Kormoran, as it can be shot towards a location and search for a target independently from the sounds of it. The radar lock helps with last minute corrections from the sounds of it. 

 

It also seems like it does in fact have a passive radar receiver to try to pick out a radar emitter before switching to active radar mode if no emitter is identified.

 

They both sound like separate issues that need reporting.

 

3 hours ago, MythicPi said:

This document also states the Tornado has an air to ground function for the Kormoran.

 

Do we know what type of ground targets it's suitable for though (i.e. buildings or tanks)? For example the Kh-22 has a secondary ground attack capability, but there isn't a hope in hell of it hitting a tank (aside from sheer dumb luck).

[MythicPi 593]

12 minutes ago, Flame2512 said:

Do we know what type of ground targets it's suitable for though (i.e. buildings or tanks)? For example the Kh-22 has a secondary ground attack capability, but there isn't a hope in hell of it hitting a tank (aside from sheer dumb luck).

Thats LITERALLY the whole point of this argument and its just flying right over your head.

 

As far as we know (both the players and gaijin) there is no outright stated source saying what the exact limits of the missile are for land attack. We KNOW it HAS land attack capabilities though, and refusing to model said land attack capabilities, even in a limited fashion like dropping the target size from 15m to 10m or implementing a home on radar emitter makes no sense, as it would be nothing but beneficial for both Italy and Germany, which both just got left out of a pretty significant capability improvement.

 

Its not like were asking to have the sidewinders track ground vehicles or to have some magic capability that never even remotely existed on a certain weapon. I'm stating the objective fact that due to the limited and ambiguous data there is regarding the Kormorans capabilities vs ground targets, gaijin EASILY could give it some land attack capabilities to bring Italian and German air to ground options at top tier some much needed love and give it SOMETHING to fight the Pantsir with.

 

This isn't the first or last time gaijin has taken creative liberties for the sake of balance, so why are they so staunchly refusing to do so in this case? Hell, the 15m minimum target radius gaijin CURRENTLY has implemented is completely arbitrary, so they're just refusing to drop the target size from 15m to 10m (which would give the Kormoran LIMITED ground strike capabilities against only the largest of ground vehicles) "just because". Even the argument of "evidence" pointing to the Kormoran 2 is stupid because both missiles are so extremely similar, they could tweak the current in-game Kormoran by literally increasing its weight by 30kg and adding a 2 to its name. The "fix" could literally be implemented in minutes at most.  

Edited June 1, 2023 by MythicPi

[Flame2512 3,386]

4 hours ago, Thodin said:

RUS flying around with Yak prototypes, with alot imagined systems it never had. Cause just a flying hull without radar, irst, CMs or even weapons would be pointless ingame.

 

The Yak-141 follows pretty much the oldest precedent the game has: if a prototype aircraft was not finished it gets implemented in the likely state it would have entered service in. There are examples of this going all the way back to 2013, and if anything it benefits minor nations more than major nations.

 

4 hours ago, Thodin said:

Ka-50 helis as well, they never had a MAW system ...I guess there are more examples.

 

If the Ka-50 never had MAWS it should be reported and removed. Plenty of other helicopters make do without it.

 

4 hours ago, Thodin said:

Or the F-5 treatment, which got fantasy Mavericks added, despite it never equipped it irl.

 

I present to you two different USAF F-5Es, both equipped with Mavericks. It's not fantasy:

Edited June 1, 2023 by Flame2512

[CodyBlues 323]

I know the F-5C shouldn’t have flares and maybe aim-9es.

Edited June 1, 2023 by CodyBlues

[_Iluminas_ 3,769]

On 31/05/2023 at 21:47, ueberman said:

I forgot which version of the Mavericks did the Luftwaffe have again?

Thanks in advance for the Answer.

as no one has answered u B,D and G variants

Spoiler

source https://www.sipri.org/databases