tanks/vehicles Experimentaleintwicklung Kampfpanzer Keiler (leo 2 EARLY, EARLY prototype)

[Vlad_The_Impala 338]

 

And post penetration effects are the whole bane of the Leopard 1 tank. You need to aim AND HIT (which isn't assured without all upgrades) exat points wheras anyone from T3 upward with APHE rounds can hit and kill/cripple you ANYWERE.

 

Agree

 

Missing the ability to do the same is what's killing this tank.

 

 

HESH doesn't work as it should

 

I actually find HESH to be near godlike.  Its the HEATFS that I think has been watered down too much
 

 

[Stronk_Memes 111]

So right now, if this gets implemented in-game, it will have the Leopard 1A4 turret? To me, that turret doesn't look exactly like the Keiler's turret. Really similar, but not exactly the same. I'm probably saying something that's already been said. xD

[swanseasean96@psn 382]

Well...I do hope this get's implemented....but since the protoypes came with 105 and 120mm guns...don't be too disappointed if we only get a copy past 105mm L7 gun on it.

It's still a german tank...meaning if there are two options...they go with the crappy one.

Can't be a copy and paste L7
just because they have the same bore diameter does not mean they are the same they can be different calibres (Artillery and tank gun have bore diameters and calibres with calibres being how many times longer they are than the bore is wide eg a 50 calibre 100mm gun is 5000mm long)
The 105 was not a L7 and I believe that this 105 was a smoothbore the L7 was rifled.

[Ruslan_DR 686]

So right now, if this gets implemented in-game, it will have the Leopard 1A4 turret? To me, that turret doesn't look exactly like the Keiler's turret. Really similar, but not exactly the same. I'm probably saying something that's already been said. xD

 

No no, just the armor values are likely to be similar. It's not exactly the same but so far we haven't found any references towards turret armor layout, so that means the leopard 1a4's turret, or the canadian C3 turret will likely have very close armor values to the Keiler.

[Bombastikus 14,039]

Can't be a copy and paste L7
just because they have the same bore diameter does not mean they are the same they can be different calibres (Artillery and tank gun have bore diameters and calibres with calibres being how many times longer they are than the bore is wide eg a 50 calibre 100mm gun is 5000mm long)
The 105 was not a L7 and I believe that this 105 was a smoothbore the L7 was rifled.

 

I am almost 100% positive that all leo2 prototypes with 105mm did actually use the L7 gun.

 

It's a nato thing. They already used it on the Leo1, the Americans used it on the M60 and early Abrahms (actually....the requirement for the XM1 for a 105mm gun was actually the only reason they built those Leo protoypes with the 105mm gun in the first place....the germans never wanted them, they always wanted the 120mm).

 

So it would make no sense whatsoever to develop a seperate 105mm gun when you already have a 120mm in the oven you already know you will use in the end. (Again..they only proved the possiblity to mount the 105mm gun because the US wanted it. Despite the M70 project being a failure they were still working closely together and a couple of the first Leo2 prototypes were bought and shipped off to the US for trials.)

[TheJoker1432 1,974]

featured here: http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/278743-future-of-german-tier-5-only-real-built-vehicles/

[ValkyrieLitewing 1,659]

Yes please. This thing would be really cool to have. It's not like it would be OP, but it would be a good German tank to help out with the very few that they have to use. 

+1111111

[Stronk_Memes 111]

So, now for a big question (probably already been asked; if so, my bad)... Will this be a premium? I'm not sure whether or not Gaijin will add a Tier V premium to any nation, be it army tree or air tree. Personally I feel it needs to be in the regular tree, after the Leopard I as it is a major improvement upon the design, and several were built. In addition, Germany's tank tree is rather barren when it comes to vehicles that reached full production, as it has received numerous prototype designs (Maus being the most obvious and controversial, Tiger II 105, etc.) as non-premiums. Probably more so than the other nations. In the long run it really wouldn't make sense to make it a premium.

 

Additionally, I would really like this to have the 120mm cannon if it makes it into the game. The 105mm L7 is effective, sure, but it still lacks reliable penetration against, say, IS-4s, T-10s, M103s, T-54s, M60s, etc. Meanwhile they punch through the Leopard's armor like it's butter (which it is). In order to retain balance, it would make sense to give the Keiler the 120mm gun.

[Ruslan_DR 686]

So, now for a big question (probably already been asked; if so, my bad)... Will this be a premium? I'm not sure whether or not Gaijin will add a Tier V premium to any nation, be it army tree or air tree. Personally I feel it needs to be in the regular tree, after the Leopard I as it is a major improvement upon the design, and several were built. In addition, Germany's tank tree is rather barren when it comes to vehicles that reached full production, as it has received numerous prototype designs (Maus being the most obvious and controversial, Tiger II 105, etc.) as non-premiums. Probably more so than the other nations. In the long run it really wouldn't make sense to make it a premium.

 

Additionally, I would really like this to have the 120mm cannon if it makes it into the game. The 105mm L7 is effective, sure, but it still lacks reliable penetration against, say, IS-4s, T-10s, M103s, T-54s, M60s, etc. Meanwhile they punch through the Leopard's armor like it's butter (which it is). In order to retain balance, it would make sense to give the Keiler the 120mm gun

 

I rather want this as a development of the leo, which leads into the MBT-70 with same gun but better armor. Nowhere have i stated it should be a premium, and if it is, i'll probably stab someone. But in all seriousness, it should be in the main tree, not putting it in would be a blight. Especially if the tank tech tree ever advances past the 60's, because it would eventually be keiler --> Kpz-70 --> leo 2.

 

Whle, in actual production order would be Kpz-70 --> keiler --> leo 2

Edited November 14, 2015 by Ruslan_DR

[Stronk_Memes 111]

I rather want this as a development of the leo, which leads into the MBT-70 with same gun but better armor. Nowhere have i stated it should be a premium, and if it is, i'll probably stab someone. But in all seriousness, it should be in the main tree, not putting it in would be a blight. Especially if the tank tech tree ever advances past the 60's, because it would eventually be keiler --> Kpz-70 --> leo 2.

 

Whle, in actual production order would be Kpz-70 --> keiler --> leo 2

 

I thought 1970 was the limit when they talked about it recently? Did they mean 1970 AND the rest of the 70s?

[Ruslan_DR 686]

I thought 1970 was the limit when they talked about it recently? Did they mean 1970 AND the rest of the 70s?

nah, 70's is the limit, 60's is what we're IN, so i'm saying if it advances past what we have right now we will probably advance further and further.

[Stronk_Memes 111]

nah, 70's is the limit, 60's is what we're IN, so i'm saying if it advances past what we have right now we will probably advance further and further.

Oh, gotcha.

Well, all in all, this tank seems like a really reasonable addition to the German tree. It may have a scary gun, and excellent mobility, but the paper armor (more paper than the Leopard I's) balances it all out. After all, what good is a gun and mobility if you can't get a shot off before you die? :P

[swanseasean96@psn 382]

I am almost 100% positive that all leo2 prototypes with 105mm did actually use the L7 gun.
 
It's a nato thing. They already used it on the Leo1, the Americans used it on the M60 and early Abrahms (actually....the requirement for the XM1 for a 105mm gun was actually the only reason they built those Leo protoypes with the 105mm gun in the first place....the germans never wanted them, they always wanted the 120mm).
 
So it would make no sense whatsoever to develop a seperate 105mm gun when you already have a 120mm in the oven you already know you will use in the end. (Again..they only proved the possiblity to mount the 105mm gun because the US wanted it. Despite the M70 project being a failure they were still working closely together and a couple of the first Leo2 prototypes were bought and shipped off to the US for trials.)

1. This is not a Leo 2

2. The L7 was a rifled gun the post clearly states the two guns tested were a 105mm SMOOTHBORE and a 120mm.

[attachment=171494:105mm_tank_gun_Rifling.jpg]
Thats the L7 rifles barrel

[attachment=171495:Leopard_1.JPG]
Note the Bore Evacuator on all L7 series tank guns.

Below is an image of what I believe the 105mm SMOOTHBORE looked like note the lack of a Bore Evacuator. Where the L7s was positioned (roughly 8-9 foot from Base of gun)
[attachment=171496:vergoldl.jpg]Main

"armament of the experimental development was a new developed 105 smoothbore gun. To support higher chamber pressure and limit vibrations, a comparatively thick gun was used. The gun has no bore evacuator, but a thick mantling on the rear part.
This design resulted in a high mass of the gun, which had a negative impact on the vehicles center of gravity and the performance of the turret drive. Because of these characteristics, the gun was not selected as future armament for any other battle tank and a more powerful 120mm model was developed instead."

Besides it'd be nice to have the 120mm gun on it instead as both variations existed

[Stronk_Memes 111]

So all we need now is information on the turret?

[TheJoker1432 1,974]

So all we need now is information on the turret?

yes

oh and dont forget to tell me when you got some to include it in my post

The Keiler had a very high level of passive protection for a vehicle of its class. Hull and turret were made of hardened steel and the turret also contained new spaced armour. The new turret design was very advanced and got further enhanced for the usage with the new Leopard 1A4.

 

Ich hab das gefunden

[TheJoker1432 1,974]

hey more infos on this vehicle can be found here: http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/278743-future-of-german-tier-5-only-real-built-vehicles/   (pictures, data, book sources,...)

[swanseasean96@psn 382]

THIS IS A JOKE

I found some information on the Keiler it would be the most OP tank in game like big super Maus

[attachment=172023:Wolf10.jpg]

Source:http://wolfenstein.wikia.com/wiki/Keiler

On all seriousness though I'm really struggling to find any info on this turret it looks so much like the A3 but that isn't good enough for me challenger 2 looks like a challenger 1 but they are totally different tanks. Does anyone know if they have any surviving prototypes at the German Tank Museum maybe could someone there help out?

[swanseasean96@psn 382]

Okay so guys feel free to add to this or even correct it if I make any mistakes.

The turret we are struggling to find info about is very similar to the A3 turret however I found the difference or atleast what u believe is the difference, the A3 uses sandwiched steel plate with a plastic foam like filling between the two plates so it was not true "spaced" armour however from everything I can find on the Keiler (I know we shouldn't call it that and it was me that pointed it out but I'm not look up how to spell it every time ;) ) it did have true spaced armour so this filling was not in the sandwich whether the thickness of the steel was the same I'm yet to find any sources for thickness of plate sadly hopefully we can find something.

[TheJoker1432 1,974]

Okay so guys feel free to add to this or even correct it if I make any mistakes.

The turret we are struggling to find info about is very similar to the A3 turret however I found the difference or atleast what u believe is the difference, the A3 uses sandwiched steel plate with a plastic foam like filling between the two plates so it was not true "spaced" armour however from everything I can find on the Keiler (I know we shouldn't call it that and it was me that pointed it out but I'm not look up how to spell it every time ;) ) it did have true spaced armour so this filling was not in the sandwich whether the thickness of the steel was the same I'm yet to find any sources for thickness of plate sadly hopefully we can find something.

well i at least found sources which tell us about the layout of the turret

 

It was indeed similair to the Leo 1 A3/A4 turret design with sloped sides and front

it was made of hardened steel

it had spaced armor (a plastic filling is not mentioned)

 

I also found that it was a kind of continuation of the planned " vergoldeter Leopard" (golden leopard) maybe search for this

[swanseasean96@psn 382]

well i at least found sources which tell us about the layout of the turret
 
It was indeed similair to the Leo 1 A3/A4 turret design with sloped sides and front
it was made of hardened steel
it had spaced armor (a plastic filling is not mentioned)
 
I also found that it was a kind of continuation of the planned " vergoldeter Leopard" (golden leopard) maybe search for this

Yeah the Keiler didmt have.this filling it was something I came across while casually reading about the leopards development. The A3 had the sandwich not the Keiler and the Yeah the layout seems to be somewhat the same maybe a few external differences but I imagine the internals will be very very similar

[TheJoker1432 1,974]

Yeah the Keiler didmt have.this filling it was something I came across while casually reading about the leopards development. The A3 had the sandwich not the Keiler and the Yeah the layout seems to be somewhat the same maybe a few external differences but I imagine the internals will be very very similar

exactly

[Stronk_Memes 111]

Found further stuff to support the engine stats (dunno if this is the source used already or not).

"Als Antrieb wurde ein 10-Zylinder Diesel des Typs MB 872 mit 1100 - 1250 PS gewählt. Als Getriebe kam das neu entwickelte 4HP400 der Firma ZF zum Einsatz."
Translates roughly to "The drive was a 10-cylinder diesel engines, type MB 872 1100 - elected in 1250 hp. As the transmission of company ZF 4HP400 newly developed was used."

Source: http://www.panzerpower.de/ger/leo2_geschichte.htm Edited November 17, 2015 by Stands24

[Stronk_Memes 111]

And I found some more information on the tank in general. Quite a long excerpt from the page so I will post the source first. That way, anyone who doesn't want to scroll all the way down for the source won't have to.

Source: http://www.kampfpanzer.de/vehicles/leopard2

"Compared to the Leopard 1, the hull of the Keiler was extended and the hull rear was flattened. The distinctive hull with flat front and sloped sides shows the kin to the Leopard 1. The upper sides on the hull front are less armored, which results in a narrow design. The Keiler can also be recognized by its two head lights, which are mounted in one large unit together with the horn on the left glacis.
The driver’s position is in the right side of the hull front. The driver’s hatch of the Leopard1, which was opening to the left, was replaced by a new design opening to the left. As with the Leopard, three small periscopes are placed in front of the driver in the hull.
The weapon turret follows already a very similar design as the later Leopard 1A4. The even sides are sloped to the roof. Central element of the turret front is the 105mm smoothbore gun, which is mounted in a new mantlet, which was sloped to the front. The sides of the mantlet contain the windows for the optical range finder. The turret roof contains the hatches for commander/gunner and loader. The commanders PERI-R12 can be found on the turret roof in front of the commander’s hatch. Behind the loaders hatch is a mount for an AA-MG. The turret rear contains an erectable shooting headlight and storage boxes for the personal equipment of the crew. The left turret side also contains a small hatch, used to load ammunition into the tank.

Propulsion
The propulsion system consists of a combination of MB 872 Ka-500 engine and ZF 4 HP 400 transmission, both derived from the aggregates used with the Leopard 1. The 10-cyclinder multi-fuel engine has a maximum power of 1.250HP, which was more than sufficient for a 40t class vehicle. A further improvement up to 1.500HP was also possible. The two small exhaust grilles are, Leopard 1 like, mounted at the rear hull sides.
The 4 HP 400 transmission was developed by ZF for the usage with the new engine and optimized for small dimensions. This was achieved by developing a fully integrated braking system inclusive parking brake. But also by using a new cooling system in the hull rear, which was suggested for the Gilded Leopard. Cooling air is sucked in thru filters in the hull top, guided thru the coolers and blown out at the hull rear. This system is called suction cooling and its main principle is the mounting of the cooling fan behind the radiators. As a result the air is not compressed before the radiator, which results in a higher efficiency of the whole system. The combination of compact power pack, new cooling and stretched hull allowed the design of a relatively low hull and thus reduce the no fire zone.
Another improvement was the usage of a 20kW G30E20-51G DC generator, powered by an OM 636 diesel engine. The usage of the APU was justified by a requirement for an improved combat duration. The fire control system and the new electro-hydraulic turret drive resulted in a constant need of electric energy. The experience with the American M47/48 tanks might also have had its share in the decision for an APU. These tanks were pure fuel guzzlers and the designers of the Keiler might not have had too much trust in the German design yet.

FCS
One of the most important improvements of the Keiler was the usage of an integrated fire control system with an analog computer. The gunner received an EMES-12 sight with optical range finder. It was the same used with the Leopard 1. With its base length of 172cm it significantly influenced the form of the turret, especially on the front. In addition, the Keiler was equipped with a laser range finder, but it still had to earn its reputation.
The main gun was driven electro-hydraulically and stabilized in two planes. The gunner’s sight followed the movement of the main gun.
The commander was equipped with a new PERI-R12, which was stabilized in the vertical plane. When taking control over the turret, the main gun followed the line of sight of the commander’s periscope.

Armaments
Main armament of the experimental development was a new developed 105 smoothbore gun. To support higher chamber pressure and limit vibrations, a comparatively thick gun was used. The gun has no bore evacuator, but a thick mantling on the rear part.
This design resulted in a high mass of the gun, which had a negative impact on the vehicles center of gravity and the performance of the turret drive. Because of these characteristics, the gun was not selected as future armament for any other battle tank and a more powerful 120mm model was developed instead.
The secondary armament of the Keiler consists of two MG3. One is mounted parallel to the main gun. The second one is mounted on the turret roof and used by the commander.

Crew
The crew of the Keiler consists of the usual configuration of driver, commander, gunner and loader. All crew members are placed in positions analogue to the Leopard 1. The tank was following a conventional layout and moved away from the new design developed with the MBT 70.

Protection
The Keiler had a very high level of passive protection for a vehicle of its class. Hull and turret were made of hardened steel and the turret also contained new spaced armour. The new turret design was very advanced and got further enhanced for the usage with the new Leopard 1A4.
Another piece of equipment which directly influenced the passive protection was a new smoke grenade system, which could be activated from within the tank. Four launchers were mounted on each turret side. Another one was mounted on the turret roof between the two hatches. It could be directed from within the vehicle and fired independently. The usage of this feature was quite limited and it got not developed any further."

[_PabloSniper_ 2,142]

germany do not need a new tank T5 weak.

Edited November 18, 2015 by _PabloSniper_

[blockhaj 3,559]

This vould be a good addition to the game.