tanks/vehicles Experimentaleintwicklung Kampfpanzer Keiler (leo 2 EARLY, EARLY prototype)

[swanseasean96@psn 382]

The devs could ask and be more likely to give values to a company rather than some strange gun fanatic that might want to buy a 120mm smoothbore tank gun stick it in the roof of his ford focus chav mobile and shoot people up but in all seriousness would they have values on file for a prototype gun from like 50 years ago?

[Ruslan_DR 686]

The devs could ask and be more likely to give values to a company rather than some strange gun fanatic that might want to buy a 120mm smoothbore tank gun stick it in the roof of his ford focus chav mobile and shoot people up but in all seriousness would they have values on file for a prototype gun from like 50 years ago?

 

You're forgetting :P The gun used on this is the exact same gun used on the Rheinmetall L/44 with just slight external differences, this one is before weight reduction and is therefore thicker around the front, but it's the exact same gun as used on the first leopard 2's. I garuntee there's specs somewhere which is why I haven't bothered to look so far.

[Beral 2,674]

+1 With the addition of the T-62 and Chieftain i think this is completely necessary for the german tree.

[Ruslan_DR 686]

+1 With the addition of the T-62 and Chieftain i think this is completely necessary for the german tree.

 

Agreed. Armor is still MEH, but when those are added we might get something better. For now though this seems more like something that's just a more realistic possibility.

[MillyTealy 4,141]

It's basically RIGHT on the border of the current timeline, and would you prefer having a more balanced vehicle, or a way faster, way better armored Kpz-70/ MBT-70 tackling early postwar vehicles? This is basically the only thing (of actual German production, not those lend-lease M60's or anything.) that is capable of tackling the current Soviet vehicles. There's also my other thread on 128mm APDS, which did exist, but I figured having a backup that could possibly work helps. It's really just another leo 1 with a better gun and plinky armor.

I am sorry but what? Clean Germany teams win a lot of matches through sheer Leopard 1 spam. They don't need this to be competitive, they are competitive.

This would be an interesting addition if the game expanded to T-64 but it would completely break the current balance if introduced without step up for the soviets and Americans.

And no T-62 doesn't justify it at all either.

[Vlad_The_Impala 338]

I am sorry but what? Clean Germany teams win a lot of matches through sheer Leopard 1 spam. They don't need this to be competitive, they are competitive.

This would be an interesting addition if the game expanded to T-64 but it would completely break the current balance if introduced without step up for the soviets and Americans.

And no T-62 doesn't justify it at all either.

 

can you please explain to the class where this tank outclasses the likes of the T10?  Yeah the gun is better but we are at the point now with HEATFS that armour is pretty much null and void.  T10. M60, and Leo will one shot anything in the game, the Keiler or the KPz 70 will be no different.  It will just add some variety so you are not just fighting a team full of Leos.

[MillyTealy 4,141]

can you please explain to the class where this tank outclasses the likes of the T10?  Yeah the gun is better but we are at the point now with HEATFS that armour is pretty much null and void.  T10. M60, and Leo will one shot anything in the game, the Keiler or the KPz 70 will be no different.  It will just add some variety so you are not just fighting a team full of Leos.

 

Significantly faster and more agile, significantly higher RoF on the gun with higher penetration, smaller profile, better gun depression, more accurate on the move.

 

Leo 1 on the move already holds up perfectly well against T-10Ms even with just APDS, and once you get HEAT/HESH it's arguably better.

 

Source: Play some matches in the Leopard. I don't have a number on me right now but Leopards don't win less than 40% of the time (probably more).

Edited December 10, 2015 by TealMillan

[MillyTealy 4,141]

By the way, T-64 began serial production in 1963 and was accepted into active service in 1966.

 

T-64A (with 125mm autoloaded smoothbore) underwent tests in 1966.

 

 

I would be very careful with arguing that the timeline date should be determinant because otherwise non-Soviet nations are in for a Bad Time.

[SmartSkull007 2,990]

So basically this is like the Leopard 1A3 (or 1A4) with a 120mm L/44?
Me want.

[Ruslan_DR 686]

By the way, T-64 began serial production in 1963 and was accepted into active service in 1966.

 

T-64A (with 125mm autoloaded smoothbore) underwent tests in 1966.

 

 

I would be very careful with arguing that the timeline date should be determinant because otherwise non-Soviet nations are in for a Bad Time.

 

Yeah, uh, guy.

 

They ALREADY confirmed the T-63/4.

This is just here to make sure we don't get left behind. As for the other nations- Well britain has their chief and... well the US is just plainly screwed.

They do however say that the US will be getting that 30mm flak gun that looks like a giant minigun.

[Choogleblitz 10,205]

I'm going to say no because the Soviet offering of the same era will break the game. T-64 most likely won't be added, even though they're "considering it".

[Ruslan_DR 686]

I'm going to say no because the Soviet offering of the same era will break the game. T-64 most likely won't be added, even though they're "considering it".

 

I suppose, this is just an alternative for if they DO. Hopefully not, though.

[Vlad_The_Impala 338]

By the way, T-64 began serial production in 1963 and was accepted into active service in 1966.
 
T-64A (with 125mm autoloaded smoothbore) underwent tests in 1966.
 
 
I would be very careful with arguing that the timeline date should be determinant because otherwise non-Soviet nations are in for a Bad Time.

Compare the tier 5s non Soviet nations are aready having a bad time.

[Vlad_The_Impala 338]

Significantly faster and more agile, significantly higher RoF on the gun with higher penetration, smaller profile, better gun depression, more accurate on the move.
 
Leo 1 on the move already holds up perfectly well against T-10Ms even with just APDS, and once you get HEAT/HESH it's arguably better.
 
Source: Play some matches in the Leopard. I don't have a number on me right now but Leopards don't win less than 40% of the time (probably more).

How speed and agility are modelled is up to the devs. I think the Leo and m18 in game show that pretty well right now. As has happened with all the other vehicles, if it is found to be op in one department, that characteristic will be nerfed. I don't see what your problem is with some variety.

[Bombastikus 14,039]

This is just here to make sure we don't get left behind. As for the other nations- Well britain has their chief and... well the US is just plainly screwed.

They do however say that the US will be getting that 30mm flak gun that looks like a giant minigun.

 

Not left behind? When in the history of ground forces were we NOT behind?

 

The only time when germany was competitive at T-5 for a short while was in 1.43 with the introductino of the Maus because they still had to implement fantasy ammunitions and people had to learn how to kill it easily.

 

Other than that germany was and will be always left behind.

 

 

That being said..I am all for the Keiler...but since it is basically a Leopard 2 protoype...I just cannot imagine they will ever implement it. The behind-hurt in the russian community would be just to great no matter how the tank actually will perform.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Bombastikus

[MillyTealy 4,141]

Not left behind? When in the history of ground forces were we NOT behind?
 
The only time when germany was competitive at T-5 for a short while was in 1.43 with the introductino of the Maus because they still had to implement fantasy ammunitions and people had to learn how to kill it easily.
 
Other than that germany was and will be always left behind.
 
 
That being said..I am all for the Keiler...but since it is basically a Leopard 2 protoype...I just cannot imagine they will ever implement it. The behind-hurt in the russian community would be just to great no matter how the tank actually will perform.

How's exactly Leopard 1 "Left behind"? It's literally a more modern vehicle than anything the Soviets have. You can argue soviets get more modern ammo, but the best ammo on T-10M (which is apparently the most OP) is the APHE. And gameplay wise, Leopard spam teams win all the time and don't tell me it's purely due to the players.

Yeah, uh, guy.
 
They ALREADY confirmed the T-63/4.

This is just here to make sure we don't get left behind. As for the other nations- Well britain has their chief and... well the US is just plainly screwed.
They do however say that the US will be getting that 30mm flak gun that looks like a giant minigun.

Can you show where?

I mean, firstly what the hell is T-63 even meant to be? Are you sure you aren't confusing that with T-62 or T-43?

And where did you see a confirmation of T-64 beyond "maybe".

I suppose, this is just an alternative for if they DO. Hopefully not, though.

Well if we get T-64 then I will absolutely support the 120mm armed Leopard 2 prototype.

Because it's pretty much the only gun NATO had that could threaten the T-64 frontally. It would be plain necessary then.

But there's no indication of that happening. Edited December 10, 2015 by TealMillan

[Vlad_The_Impala 338]

snip

The only way you are going to do away with Leo spam (which is boring) is to give Germany some vehicles other than it an the maus that can compete at 7.7. Either that or un-nerf the 88 of give it the ww2 prototype APDS. Soviets have 7 vehicles at 7.7 and even the spaa will shred anything it sees except the mouse. How about even thing up a bit. Sounds as though you just wanna keep on clubbin though.

[Ruslan_DR 686]

How's exactly Leopard 1 "Left behind"? It's literally a more modern vehicle than anything the Soviets have. You can argue soviets get more modern ammo, but the best ammo on T-10M (which is apparently the most OP) is the APHE. And gameplay wise, Leopard spam teams win all the time and don't tell me it's purely due to the players.

Can you show where?

I mean, firstly what the hell is T-63 even meant to be? Are you sure you aren't confusing that with T-62 or T-43?

And where did you see a confirmation of T-64 beyond "maybe".

Well if we get T-64 then I will absolutely support the 120mm armed Leopard 2 prototype.

Because it's pretty much the only gun NATO had that could threaten the T-64 frontally. It would be plain necessary then.

But there's no indication of that happening.

 

well I haven't exactly found where they said it, but I think it was just that they were considering it. Do remember they have like, thousands of topics and posts, as for the 63..... Yeah i'm sleep deprived XD

 

Either way, the game would be overall more fun and balanced if they un-nerfed everything. There is one thing people seem to not realise;

 

Almost every single major power, especially GER, USA, Russia, and the British, ALWAYS had one vehicle that could FAIRLY counter any other vehicle, and when they didn't the vehicle was in prototype form. The devs just either don't want to fix the vehicles, or are balancing- not because they WANT to make the soviet vehicles balanced, but because the idiots driving IS-2's don't know HOW to play, and as a result need to overcompensate for their lack of skill. This can be evidenced by their blindly-charging into battle, around corners, having to hide right in a corner and wait for you to come past, as well as the rather evident teamkilling. not all players are like this, but an astonishing amount are. So, they need something that can compensate. That is why we can't enjoy balance.

 

That said, for anyone who wishes to "correct" me, yes, I know that many soviet vehicles are also underperforming, but they are performing CLOSER to how they originally would have.

 

either that or the vehicle sheets they're using are wrong, either way with proper documentation everything would improve.
 

Edited December 11, 2015 by Ruslan_DR

[MillyTealy 4,141]

The only way you are going to do away with Leo spam (which is boring) is to give Germany some vehicles other than it an the maus that can compete at 7.7. Either that or un-nerf the 88 of give it the ww2 prototype APDS. Soviets have 7 vehicles at 7.7 and even the spaa will shred anything it sees except the mouse. How about even thing up a bit. Sounds as though you just wanna keep on clubbin though.

I am all for introduction of more Leopard 1 prototypes as well as Leopard 1A1 which has already been confirmed. I am also eagerly awaiting RU251 (which will be a heap of fun).

That's all in the other direction than the Leopard 2 prototype with a 120mm though. That vehicle would be also quite unfair towards USA and UK where UK gets pretty much equivalent gun on Chieftain but Chieftain is absolutely sluggish (and not exactly too well armoured either). USA doesn't get anything like it at all, even the initial M1 Abrams used the L7 105mm.
And I do love clubbing, yes.

In the Leopard.

[Ruslan_DR 686]

I am all for introduction of more Leopard 1 prototypes as well as Leopard 1A1 which has already been confirmed. I am also eagerly awaiting RU251 (which will be a heap of fun).

That's all in the other direction than the Leopard 2 prototype with a 120mm though. That vehicle would be also quite unfair towards USA and UK where UK gets pretty much equivalent gun on Chieftain but Chieftain is absolutely sluggish (and not exactly too well armoured either). USA doesn't get anything like it at all, even the initial M1 Abrams used the L7 105mm.
And I do love clubbing, yes.

In the Leopard.

 

eh i suppose, but if we end up with the T-64 it must be done.

 

Also, cheftain, no armor, EVERYONE IS TALKING ABOUT HOW WELL ARMORED THE CHEFTAIN IS. 

 

Mfw everyone's saying one thing then not saying the same thing. This community, man.

 

As for the US, i agree, there doesn't seem to be much, but then again have you SEEN their new AA that they're getting to deal with jets? it would make the leopards, and this, a joke.

 

It's called the vigilante

 

 

That is a 37mm rotary cannon. it is a minigun. except not so mini.

 

Soooo, yeah, i think that would be a fair fight XD

Edited December 11, 2015 by Ruslan_DR

[MillyTealy 4,141]

Chieftain got very good armour in 70s and 80s marks as well as the appliqué packages made for it. The 50s and 60s variants are not a problem for neither the L7 on Leopard and M60 nor the 122mm in T-10M.

[Ruslan_DR 686]

Chieftain got very good armour in 70s and 80s marks as well as the appliqué packages made for it. The 50s and 60s variants are not a problem for neither the L7 on Leopard and M60 nor the 122mm in T-10M.

in that case i guess everyone thought that they'd get the later armor. Eh, regardless this gun is an okay upgrade, i mean you still get to oneshot this vehicle so it's not like i'm saying give us an MBT-70. right? actually that's why i posted this thread.

[MillyTealy 4,141]

This vehicle has district advantages over the current generation of vehicles present.

Armour means currently very little, and the 1000kw engine and a stabilisation system of generation ahead of everything else that's getting into the game would make it plain and simply better than everything else. There's no reason for that when there's still like 4 vehicles that could still be added to German 7.7 as is. Edited December 11, 2015 by TealMillan

[Ruslan_DR 686]

This vehicle has district advantages over the current generation of vehicles present.

Armour means currently very little, and the 1000kw engine and a stabilisation system of generation ahead of everything else that's getting into the game would make it plain and simply better than everything else. There's no reason for that when there's still like 4 vehicles that could still be added to German 7.7 as is.

 

in that case, i think it is best this suggestion stays in purgatory, until it becomes time to where we need both this and the MBT, this could serve as an intermediary link between it and the leopard series (even if the MBT came first, and inspired this vehicle, but still.)

[Bombastikus 14,039]

How's exactly Leopard 1 "Left behind"? It's literally a more modern vehicle than anything the Soviets have. You can argue soviets get more modern ammo, but the best ammo on T-10M (which is apparently the most OP) is the APHE. And gameplay wise, Leopard spam teams win all the time and don't tell me it's purely due to the players.

 

 

Well...the PT76 is also more modern than the WW2 vehicles it faces. A Humvee is more modern than a Tiger tank. The important part is how it would perform in the game. Personally I consider the Leo1 not on par with the T-54 series. First because we only get one and not three. But also because it is incredibly more vulnerable and its stock rounds are just HORRIBLE. APDS is the most frustrating round I ever played with. It is RNG personified, doing either decent are absolutely no damage completely randomly.

 

In AB mode it is one of the worst endgame T5 tanks for sure..far to fragile to survive long on those small maps.