Balance improvements in Aircraft Realistic Battles

[voky007_CZ 42]

23 hours ago, Skeptical_Bunny said:

I gave your post a "Sad" face because.. You really do not get it @MH4UAstragon No one, but you want tags removed simply because it'll make RB like Sim mode and it will end up with hardly anyone wanting to play it because spot the dot. WT's graphic engine isn't good enough for it. If people did like it, then much more people would be playing SB, everyone I've talked with about SB says about the same.. "Spot-the-dot" make my eyes hurt, or is tiresome, or is not for me.

I do want the ENEMY markers to be removed. 

No, the reason why only a handful of players are playing SB is becouse of the cockpit view, the fact that you can get into a flat spin easily if youre unexperienced and that youre at a heavy disadvantage if youre not using a head tracking device.

23 hours ago, Einherjer1979 said:

And the last but not least: 
 

Markers are equivalent (yes, in simplified and easier to use form than in IRL) of:

 

- information shared between pilots via radio
- information provided to pilots via radio by ground control (both radar and optical)
- information provided to pilots via radio by ground and naval forces in the battle area

In that case I believe that you should be able to see those spotted by your allies, ground forces etc. ONLY on the map, not while in the default view to make a compromise.

 

23 hours ago, Einherjer1979 said:

This should NOT be just the sum of duels and kills by surprise during random encounters...as it was during "markerless" EC event or IRL during WWI.

Why not? Ambushing is a great part of the ground RB gameplay. '

 

Removing the ENEMY markers would do a couple of  things:

 

1. It would equalize the players performance, the performance of a player wouldn't depend exclusively on the performance of their plane but also on the level of their awarness.

2. Uptiers wouldn't be as frustrating cuz of the point no. 2.

 

3. It would make bombers and attackers more useful as their performance in a battle depends heavily on staying undetected. 

 

4. It would make the air RB at least a tiny bit more realistic.

 

5. It would make things like heavy fighters (do217s, potezs, p61 to a certain extent), and non-meta fighters (US naval jet fighters) useful becouse since they are mostly completely outperformed by the enemy fighters they RELY on the element of surprise just as multiple lightly armoured vehicles (m18, t92, pt76, bmps etc.). THATS the reason why their br is a lot lower in AB compared to RB. They have to remain UNDETECTED in order to PERFORM.

 

 

Edited April 13, 2019 by voky007_CZ

[Salty_Raven 878]

On 12/04/2019 at 01:04, MH4UAstragon said:

We have this in Ground Forces and it DOES. NOT. WORK. In fact it creates MORE uptiers, not less

It's not meant to create more, or less up, or down tiers, it's meant to give the ones that get up tiered a fighting chance, because they aren't getting matches where there are, like 2-4 players of the lowest BR and the rest is the highest BR that they do not stand a chance in hell at beating. Like I often experience when trying to spade the I-225. We're usually 2-4 props of BR 6.3 and the rest of your team is made up of 7.0 and 7.3 while the entire enemy team are 7.0 and 7.3. Does that seem fair toy you? Wouldn't it be more FAIR if there were limitations to how many top BR planes there could be in a match?

Edited April 13, 2019 by Skeptical_Bunny

[MH4UAstragon 9,581]

6 minutes ago, voky007_CZ said:

I do want the ENEMY markers to be removed. 

No, the reason why only a handful of players are playing SB is becouse of the cockpit view, the fact that you can get into a flat spin easily if youre unexperienced and that youre at a heavy disadvantage if youre not using a head tracking device.

In that case I believe that you should be able to see those spotted by your allies, ground forces etc. ONLY on the map, not while in the default view to make a compromise.

 

Why not? Ambushing is a great part of the ground RB gameplay. '

 

Removing the ENEMY markers would do a couple of  things:

 

1. It would equalize the players performance, the performance of a player wouldn't depend exclusively on the performance of their plane but also on the level of their awarness.

2. Uptiers wouldn't be as frustrating cuz of the point no. 2.

 

3. It would make bombers and attackers more useful as their performance in a battle depends heavily on staying undetected. 

 

4. It would make the air RB at least a tiny bit more realistic.

 

5. It would make things like heavy fighters (do217s, potezs, p61 to a certain extent), and non-meta fighters (US naval jet fighters) useful becouse since they are mostly completely outperformed by the enemy fighters they RELY on the element of surprise just as multiple lightly armoured vehicles (m18, t92, pt76, bmps etc.). THATS the reason why their br is a lot lower in AB compared to RB. They have to remain UNDETECTED in order to PERFORM.

Amazing, someone else understands where I’m coming from.

 

Furthermore, if the missle warning gets removed (which it damn well should), markerless combined with missiles would make uptiers a lot less of a pain in the rear in the tiers that caused all the issues to force “emergency symmetrical matchmaking”.

 

If dot spotting is buggy, fix it. Don’t use buggy dot spotting as an excuse to leave enemy markers in a mode where they don’t belong. Markers create the climb thunder meta because firstly you see everything below you with ease. Second, markers cause at least some people to panic-dive when they see someone above them, leading to “herd mentality” which causes the whole team to dive or have the climbing few be outnumbered and slaughtered. Third, markers place far more emphasis on turn rate than reality did, since they spoil BnZ surprise attacks very regularly. Repeat a few passes while the turner climbs between passes and soon energy states even out, forcing the BnZer to run or die.

- There are issues of dots rendering through miles of clouds which makes no sense, only for said plane to vanish like it should when you’re within about 4km of it.

- There are issues of planes going completely invisible against the ground.

- “Bomberdots” being able to be spotted over 30km away is ridiculous. 

 

What positive aspects do enemy markers have besides being a lazy excuse not to fix dot spotting or being a relic from when the game was new? Spotting a bomber climbing to space? We can keep the Avenger & Blind Hunt orders to mark people in those situations.

 

If the objective structure of the game mode changes such that fighters alone, bombers alone, and attackers alone cannot win things, paired with removal of game-ending continuous ticket bleeds for killing everybody/bombing AF/bot GTs killing each other, suddenly it becomes not necessary to hunt down every flying microorganism on the enemy side of the map to win.

[MH4UAstragon 9,581]

1 minute ago, Skeptical_Bunny said:

It's not meant to create more, or less up, or down tiers, it's meant to give the ones that get up tiered a fighting chance, because they aren't getting matches where there are, like 2-4 players of the lowest BR and the rest is the highest BR that they do not stand a chance in hell at beating.

Yet it doesn’t though. It creates a 75% chance statistically of being uptiered, influenced by black holes and whatnot. Some vehicles are completely useless in the slightest of uptiers (almost always armor-reliant machines due to people whining they can’t frontally pen a Ferdinand when that was the whole damn point of giving that tank that much armor).

 

Then due to smallish map sizes the four top BR tanks still end up deciding match outcomes more often than not. The same would be true for aircraft. 

 

No fixed BR spread option will satisfy everybody. Some will say it is still too large even if it got lowered. Some will complain about waiting too long in queue. Since it is impossible to satisfy both camps, let each player decide for themselves what is more important to them: a fair match or queue time. Give players options of 0.3/0.4, 0.7, or 1.0 BR spread options and leave it up to each individual what they want. If they get frustrated waiting too long they can increase their spread.

[Salty_Raven 878]

Oh wow! You have one supporter. I'm so happy for you

[voky007_CZ 42]

1 minute ago, Skeptical_Bunny said:

Oh wow! You have one supporter. I'm so happy for you

now youre just being unmature + it is off the topic

[Salty_Raven 878]

12 minutes ago, voky007_CZ said:

now youre just being unmature + it is off the topic

And you don't see the humor in the post..

As for off topic.. I think we been off topic for a long time already.

Edited April 13, 2019 by Skeptical_Bunny

[voky007_CZ 42]

10 minutes ago, Skeptical_Bunny said:

And you don't see the humor in the post..

As for off topic.. I think we been off topic for a long time already.

The fact is that his rep is 8.2k upvotes, almost 10x as high as yours, that much for the supporters. 

 

No, we haven't. Removing the enemy markers leads to the performance of the planes being less important and the skill of the player being necessary in order to be succesful which imo leads to a greater balance.

Edited April 13, 2019 by voky007_CZ

[Salty_Raven 878]

As for him having a lot of up-votes, that doesn't really mean he has a lot of followers. He spams nearly every thread that has to do with Air AR and EC with his points and it's the same points over and over again and he has been doing it for years. And those that do support him give him up-votes every time he make a point that they think is valid, and how many posts with the same points has he dished out per day over the years? Of course he will get a lot of up votes. Me, I have been away for longer periods of time because I've gotten pissed at the changes the game have gone through, last one being the cannon buff the game got instead of what I fought for, fixing the .50's so we could have a realistic weapon damage.

 

I wont support removing the markers fully. I'm a fan of the spotting system they have in the Arcade mode in IL 2 BoS/BoM where you get a tiny marker on all planes that are within 6km, but it's gray until you get close enough to make the friend/foe identification. And it would help attackers. But the problem here isn't just seeing the enemy attackers. It's also map design and weapon damage. We need maps that are designed more in favor of the ground attackers, and we need weapons to do less damage to planes, because as it is right now planes just need a little poke and they can't stay in the air.

Edited April 13, 2019 by Skeptical_Bunny

[voky007_CZ 42]

15 minutes ago, Skeptical_Bunny said:

As for him having a lot of up-votes, that doesn't really mean he has a lot of followers. He spams nearly every thread that has to do with Air AR and EC with his points and it's the same points over and over again and he has been doing it for years. And those that do support him give him up-votes every time he make a point that they think is valid, and how many posts with the same points has he dished out per day over the years?

Altho it is pretty unlikely that he has around 10 followers who give him upvotes on all of his posts, isn't it? Furthermore, there is no way you can know for sure/prove that.

 

15 minutes ago, Skeptical_Bunny said:

I wont support removing the markers fully. 

Me neither, would you be ok with the enemy markers being removed?

 

A soultion could be that the marker appears only within 1.5km radius of the enemy and only when he is in your FOV. If you look away, the marker would disappear after 10 secs. Seems like a fair compromise to me.

Edited April 13, 2019 by voky007_CZ

[Salty_Raven 878]

5 hours ago, voky007_CZ said:

Altho it is pretty unlikely that he has around 10 followers who give him upvotes on all of his posts, isn't it? Furthermore, there is no way you can know for sure/prove that.

True.. But you can't just look at the number of up-votes someone has gotten and say that that person had a lot of followers, you have to look at the number of posts as well, right?

Quote

Me neither, would you be ok with the enemy markers being removed?

No, like I said.. I'm a fan of the IL BoS/BoM arcade mode markers.

All planes get marked by the system, but at first it's just a gray marker and you can't tell, if it's friend, or foe. I do not remember the distances, tho.

My suggestion on this is to.

-Change the map so that we get sectors with 9 quadrants. And remove all real time info from the map other than reports of enemies having been spotted in what sector and quadrant. All you see when you look at the map is the info about troop positions and where the airfields are, where forward bases and out posts are. Where ships were last spotted before the match started. (Sector 1-9 with quadrants A-I. Updates to positions of enemies should only come when they are spotted, but no precise real time info.

-All planes that are within 8 km of your own plane that CAN be seen from the pilot seat get a gray marker. With can I mean you need free LoS from the pilot seat, meaning that things, like the plane itself, wings nose, tali and environment clouds, mountains, hell even other planes, will will break LoS.

-Planes within 4km are identified as friend of foe.

-Plane type isn't shown till you are at 3 km.

-Exact model isn't shown before 1.5 km.

-Only tracked planes get distance information and not until they are within 3 km (Planes that have radar get the distance at their radar range.

-Player names only show on allied planes.

-When allies report spotting planes, or call for someone to attack planes that are outside of the 8 km range of your own plane, or not in LoS, then you only get map coordinates with an approximate altitude. 

 

There's one thing that kill attackers/bomber attacking ground units more than the spotting system, and that's the kill reports. If anything should be removed it's them, or at least remove the kill reports from the enemy. Because people do not really need to see the attacker on the ground, they often just see the ground units getting killed by an enemy plane and they get up what type of plane it is too. Remove that report and the enemy have to be looking at the map to see allied ground units disappear, if he/she doesn't spot the enemy attacker.

Edited April 13, 2019 by Skeptical_Bunny

[MH4UAstragon 9,581]

57 minutes ago, Skeptical_Bunny said:

There's one thing that kill attackers/bomber attacking ground units more than the spotting system, and that's the kill reports. If anything should be removed it's them, or at least remove the kill reports from the enemy. Because people do not really need to see the attacker on the ground, they often just see the ground units getting killed by an enemy plane and they get up what type of plane it is too. Remove that report and the enemy have to be looking at the map to see allied ground units disappear, if he/she doesn't spot the enemy attacker.

Now that’s definitely something I could compromise on in conjunction with IL-2 BoS’s arcade mode sort of spotting. We’d still need objective structure reforms with no autowin condtions though.

[voky007_CZ 42]

1 hour ago, Skeptical_Bunny said:

There's one thing that kill attackers/bomber attacking ground units more than the spotting system, and that's the kill reports. If anything should be removed it's them, or at least remove the kill reports from the enemy. Because people do not really need to see the attacker on the ground, they often just see the ground units getting killed by an enemy plane and they get up what type of plane it is too. Remove that report and the enemy have to be looking at the map to see allied ground units disappear, if he/she doesn't spot the enemy attacker.

what about the ticket bleed upon destroying armoured units such as pillboxes and tanks?

 

[Salty_Raven 878]

48 minutes ago, voky007_CZ said:

what about the ticket bleed upon destroying armoured units such as pillboxes and tanks?

 

It doesn't tell you what plane is attacking what and you can't tell what it's attacking without looking at where you are losing ground units, which bring me to the point of poor map design. On nearly ALL the newer maps the ground units are gathered in one place, the middle of the map under where all fighters go. Ground units need to be spread out.

Edited April 13, 2019 by Skeptical_Bunny

[MH4UAstragon 9,581]

2 hours ago, Skeptical_Bunny said:

It doesn't tell you what plane is attacking what and you can't tell what it's attacking without looking at where you are losing ground units, which bring me to the point of poor map design. On nearly ALL the newer maps the ground units are gathered in one place, the middle of the map under where all fighters go. Ground units need to be spread out.

Another thing we both can agree on. Better still the soft things like arty, AAA, machine guns, etc are worth small bits of ticket losses each as well. 

 

But so long as the “big three continuous bleeds” exist for 1) “hostile team has lost all its vehicles” 2) “airbase destroyed” and 3) “AI Units self-destructing at a 1:1 ratio” also known as “gremlin script,” the changes you’re in support of will only help so much. 

 

Fighters in reality could not win operations by themselves, they weren’t designed to do that. That is why dedicated attack and bombing craft existed then and still exist now. Instead, each goal when fully complete should bleed 2/3 of the ticket bar, with the remaining 1/3 expected to come from one of the other two. Then suddenly attackers and bombers are worth something to the fighters because the fighters need them for time-efficient wins, and vice versa. Meanwhile without the looming concern about otherwise good games being ripped out from under them by “hostile team has lost all its vehicles,” this would make it nonsensical for attackers and bombers to rush their targets anymore, as they’d now have guaranteed time to set up good approaches.

 

If this issue is solved, then suddenly future much-wanted additions to the game as attackers and bombers won’t be dead weight on teams and won’t be wastes of dev team time. 

- Tu-95

- XB-35

- YB-49

- B-36

- B-52

- Vulcan

- Axis nations would still need something here but since they just stationed NATO craft on bases in/near their borders they have no designs of their own, let alone actually built planes, that’d fit beyond 6.7-7.3. The Ju-287V3 would be at best a 7.3 plane. The G-10N1 and Ta-400 were not built beyond the 5000hp engine in the former and some wing roots in the latter, and both them and the ingame Tu-4 have no place beyond 7.0-7.3.

Edited April 13, 2019 by MH4UAstragon

[Salty_Raven 878]

2 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Another thing we both can agree on. Better still the soft things like arty, AAA, machine guns, etc are worth small bits of ticket losses each as well. 

Yes, make all ground units ticket holders, but increase the ticket pool a little and just give the various ground/sea units different ticket values, like artillery/AAA/MG be worth 1 point, while light pillboxes are worth 3 and pillboxes 4, destroyers are worth 3, cruisers 4, BB's and CV's 6, bases 10. But I do not want to see auto ticket drain on airfield destruction, all that should mean is that the enemy can't repair/rearm/refuel.

 

But really.. If we're going to have it like you want it with the ability to grind ground units after the enemy team lose all it's planes, then we might as well just remove Air RB and make it into EC mode with endless spawns and the only victory conditions to be about what team control the most of the map at the end of the timer, and with a ticket system where each team start with 500 points, then when one team start to control more of the map than the other the tickets start decreasing on the team that is losing ground and increasing on the team that's winning ground. Meaning there's always 1000 tickets in the match.

Edited April 14, 2019 by Skeptical_Bunny

[Star23_16 388]

 

43 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

“hostile team has lost all its vehicles”

you can not remove this without using EC mechanic of endless spawn Astragon, it impossible .

We have 1 life, it a team death match no matter what you do except endless respawning and if you really think gajin want to allow bombers and attackers to grind GT when the match is over, you need to wake up. Gaijin want the players into the next match ASAP for glorious qeue time, not to mention free sl and RP extra go against their way to entice you into premium time.
Edit: which is my main guess to why RB not gotten EC mode yet ....

 

 

43 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Fighters in reality could not win operations by themselves, they weren’t designed to do that. That is why dedicated attack and bombing craft existed then and still exist now. Instead, each goal when fully complete should bleed 2/3 of the ticket bar, with the remaining 1/3 expected to come from one of the other two. Then suddenly attackers and bombers are worth something to the fighters because the fighters need them for time-efficient wins, and vice versa.

all i am reading here is Kill bombers and attackers ASAP and the enemy team cant win ....at all, unless i misunderstand something there ?

Edited April 14, 2019 by Star23_16

[MH4UAstragon 9,581]

3 hours ago, Skeptical_Bunny said:

Yes, make all ground units ticket holders, but increase the ticket pool a little and just give the various ground/sea units different ticket values, like artillery/AAA/MG be worth 1 point, while light pillboxes are worth 3 and pillboxes 4, destroyers are worth 3, cruisers 4, BB's and CV's 6, bases 10. But I do not want to see auto ticket drain on airfield destruction, all that should mean is that the enemy can't repair/rearm/refuel.

 

But really.. If we're going to have it like you want it with the ability to grind ground units after the enemy team lose all it's planes, then we might as well just remove Air RB and make it into EC mode with endless spawns and the only victory conditions to be about what team control the most of the map at the end of the timer, and with a ticket system where each team start with 500 points, then when one team start to control more of the map than the other the tickets start decreasing on the team that is losing ground and increasing on the team that's winning ground. Meaning there's always 1000 tickets in the match.

The idea is that killing all enemy planes bleeds 2/3 of the bar.

 

The remaining 1/3 would come from the other two objectives.

 

Assigning ticket values to all ground units and not just hardened ones ensures that this is not abuseable. It’s designed to encourage bombers and attackers to not rush in like headless chickens because now a good game for them won’t be ripped out from under them because “hurr durr last plane ded!”

 

A limited end of match cleanup phase would not break the economy. That’s what I’m aiming for, and precisely what is needed to make nonfighter aircraft useful, which is half the problem leading to the T-2 mess. 

 

But in order to make nonfighters useful, killing all enemy players should not be an autowin any longer. Otherwise they’re still pressured to rush which most do. Otherwise on terrible maps they’re not worth spawning in at all because of a permanent furball over the only ground units from game start to last plane dying and game end. If the attacker so much as thinks to nab a few ground units under the furball, the last enemy player WILL proceed to terminally lawn dart and light the attack plane on fire for a desperate kill. Had it happen too many times to expect anything less. If people are concerned about bombers and attackers just sitting on the runway til the furball disperses, let battle activity punish those people.

2 hours ago, Star23_16 said:

all i am reading here is Kill bombers and attackers ASAP and the enemy team cant win ....at all, unless i misunderstand something there ?

The extra truck spawn would be a failsafe in the event of a team winning the air but having a bunch of idiot bomber or attacker pilots who rush in without any care in the world.

2 hours ago, Star23_16 said:

you can not remove this without using EC mechanic of endless spawn Astragon, it impossible .

We have 1 life, it a team death match no matter what you do except endless respawning and if you really think gajin want to allow bombers and attackers to grind GT when the match is over, you need to wake up. Gaijin want the players into the next match ASAP for glorious qeue time, not to mention free sl and RP extra go against their way to entice you into premium time.
Edit: which is my main guess to why RB not gotten EC mode yet ...

Yes it can be removed. 

 

The team deathmatch happening is not what bothers me.

 

It auto-ending every game the moment air superiority is secured is. 

 

Also, as both I and @Skeptical_Bunny have mentioned, all ground units, soft and hardened, would be worth ticket chunks. So there would be a limited end-of-game “cleanup” phase, but not so large of one as to break the economy.

 

If the fighters don’t want to stick around they can just land at friendly AF, repair, and eject back to hangar.

 

Unless we want the “T-2 Syndrome” to repeat itself when we inevitably get another tier of supersonics and a bunch of attack planes/bombers on the Allied side only, this imabalance in the objective structure MUST be solved.

Edited April 14, 2019 by MH4UAstragon

[Salty_Raven 878]

I don't like your idea there at all to be honest, I would rather like to see a fully workable EC mode up and running full time with win/lose condition based on the ground battle and what team control the most land at the end of the time limit of the match, or if one team can actually manage to clear the way for the ground units to actually capture the bases needed to be controlled for a victory to be had before the time limit run out.

 

And we can leave the normal Air RB as it is, a team death match, but with spotting system changes that is more realistic, but without removing the markers fully. Like I said.. I'm all for changing the spotting system, but I want progressive spotting with markers, but with minimal info.

 

@Stona

As for this..
 

Quote

In order to improve balance in aircraft Realistic Battles

It isn't just BR 7.7 and up that need fixes for Air RB balance, it's really the entire game that need fixes, but for now you can start by removing the 3k km airstart the R2Y2 is getting and ASAP, I prefer to see that plane spawn on the airfield, but I'll settle for it getting attacker spawn. The next thing you can do is revert back to the weapon damage you introduced on v1.61 (or was it 1.59) but with the correct fix for the .50's that should have been done back then.

It's time you start thinking about fixing problems with the game instead of adding more stuff and more problems.

[MH4UAstragon 9,581]

8 hours ago, Skeptical_Bunny said:

I don't like your idea there at all to be honest, I would rather like to see a fully workable EC mode up and running full time with win/lose condition based on the ground battle and what team control the most land at the end of the time limit of the match, or if one team can actually manage to clear the way for the ground units to actually capture the bases needed to be controlled for a victory to be had before the time limit run out.

EC is always a viable alternative and a hell of a lot less complex to implement since it already exists. Due to the objective structure in that mode, markerless wouldn’t pose a problem. My ideas for reforming Air RB become largely null & void if we get EC released full time on a normal matchmaking BR basis or in a series of rotating lineups that are on all the time but switch each weekend. EC doesn’t need much in the way of improvements to properly fit every plane type:

- have the front line go halfway through the map square neareat to it, and have every map square crossed by the front to be an air superiority capture zone

- allow ground engagements to spawn under any air superiority zone once it gets taken by a side. This is to stop the issue of the map being totally empty aside from one ground fight with a “singularity furball” parked overtop of it that gets continually replenished by respawns from both sides.

- make the wait times for spawning things after they get taken out consistent. In the markerless test we had late last year, it was 5.0-6.3. I had a 5.3, a 5.0, and a 5.7 in my lineup. If I took all three I could send the 5.0 as much as I want but get spawn timers on the other two. If I took just the 5.3 & 5.7 I could spawn the 5.3 as much as I want but get 30min lock on the 5.7. If I took only the 5.7 it could be spammed as much as I wanted. Shouldn’t all vehicles of the “Required BRs to join” have no spawn timers?

8 hours ago, Skeptical_Bunny said:

It isn't just BR 7.7 and up that need fixes for Air RB balance, it's really the entire game that need fixes, but for now you can start by removing the 3k km airstart the R2Y2 is getting and ASAP, I prefer to see that plane spawn on the airfield, but I'll settle for it getting attacker spawn. The next thing you can do is revert back to the weapon damage you introduced on v1.61 (or was it 1.59) but with the correct fix for the .50's that should have been done back then.

And yet how many people were complaining about sparks on all their guns back then? I would set up decent passes on enemies and nope just sparks. 

 

Aircraft DMs were ridiculously tanky back then, and all it did was cause people to play sloppier because a glancing blow would do nothing. Emptying literally 500 20mm MG151 rounds into one B-17 is NOT fun. 

 

Now while a lot of those same people play sloppier because better guns = headon thunder, the rest play at least a tad more carefully.

 

Also, when requiring well-set-up passes on anything to kill something, the marker system would more often than not spoil those passes you were setting up. So if you want 1.59-era damage models and guns, you’d have to reduce the ranges of IDing friend or foe from a generic gray marker at least, and only make markers show up in the direction you’re looking. Someone who’s about to get bounced and isn’t looking behind them should not get ANY warning they’re being bounced until they’re DEAD.

 

The R2Y2 is a slower-accelerating, better-armed, and heavier Me-262A for all intents and purposes. It also has a rudder acting like an airbrake from what I hear. If you want to give them all ground spawns, fine, but then their BRs would need to drop a bit to 6.3/6.3/6.7.

Edited April 14, 2019 by MH4UAstragon

[Salty_Raven 878]

3 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

EC is always a viable alternative and a hell of a lot less complex to implement since it already exists. Due to the objective structure in that mode, markerless wouldn’t pose a problem. My ideas for reforming Air RB become largely null & void if we get EC released full time

Then put your effort more into getting that released and running full time instead of putting your effort on something that's likely never going to happen. That's something I can see myself supporting, because I was looking forward to EC mode, was hoping it could be something that could replace Air RB fully and it would likely be easier for AB players to get into RB in EC because of the endless spawns. EC is also our best bet for getting a fully mixed Plane-Tank platform where you do not have to enter having a plane or a tank in your lineup.

 

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And yet how many people were complaining about sparks on all their guns back then? I would set up decent passes on enemies and nope just sparks.

You were one of those that argued for the cannon buff to happen after Gaijin had boosted the .50 100% instead of fixing them, like they should have done. And now that the cannon boost has happened and all weapons are unrealistically strong we have a different problem, one that those boosts are directly responsible for creating. Bombers and attackers dies super fast, a bomber like the B17 can be taken down super easy. This is the result of what you fought so hard to get. Wouldn't you rather go back to how it was before, but with the sparks issue fixed? Though rounds that doesn't have AP markings should look like they are sparking, F, FI, I, IT, T rounds have almost no penetration value. Incendiary rounds should have a high chance of causing fire on a plane that has a fuel leak and all fragmentation rounds should cause a little damage on every hit in a wide cone from the spot they hit and in the direction they were traveling, this damage should be shrapnel damage, but the hit itself should just look like a spark to the one that fired the round. The same goes for HE rounds without AP value should also look like sparkles, or rather like small explosions on the target.

The funny thing about this is when people were complaining a lot about sparkles I saw it a bit differently, when I was attacked by players and they went "F****ing sparkles" they left my plane with damage everywhere I got hit, the damage wasn't heavy, but it was there and my plane was harder to fly. So I would say it wasn't all just sparkles..

 

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The R2Y2 is a slower-accelerating, better-armed, and heavier Me-262A for all intents and purposes. It also has a rudder acting like an airbrake from what I hear. If you want to give them all ground spawns, fine, but then their BRs would need to drop a bit to 6.3/6.3/6.7.

6.7, 6.7 and 7.0 suit it better.

[Salty_Raven 878]

5 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Also, when requiring well-set-up passes on anything to kill something, the marker system would more often than not spoil those passes you were setting up. So if you want 1.59-era damage models and guns, you’d have to reduce the ranges of IDing friend or foe from a generic gray marker at least, and only make markers show up in the direction you’re looking. Someone who’s about to get bounced and isn’t looking behind them should not get ANY warning they’re being bounced until they’re DEAD.

You're forgetting about the "can be seen from the pilot seat/gunner positions" If you're going to sneak up on an unsuspecting fighter and surprise it fully, then you just have to set up the attack so you come in from an angle where he CANNOT see you due to parts of his own plane blocking the LoS. The progressive spotting would only show you markers on planes that the pilot of your planes can see from his seat. Friendlies spotting planes that are around you doesn't help YOU if your pilot doesn't have free LoS to the plane.

[druidh58 656]

15 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

The idea is that killing all enemy planes bleeds 2/3 of the bar.

 

The remaining 1/3 would come from the other two objectives.

 

 

 

The team deathmatch happening is not what bothers me.

 

It auto-ending every game the moment air superiority is secured is. 

 

 

Auto-ending could still happen, but with no "win" condition so no win bonus, fewer SLs, RPs, etc. Win bonus should only be give when the mission objectives have been achieved. I've never yet seen a game where the objectives list at the start included "destroy all enemy aircraft"

[Ein79 5,749]

On 13/04/2019 at 17:22, voky007_CZ said:

Why not? Ambushing is a great part of the ground RB gameplay. '

 

Ambushes are cool, but this is just a small fragment of WWII, KoreanWar, not to mention further ColdWar aerial combat. Aircraft from the 1940s and beyond were intensively supported by ground control and radio communication with other aircrafts and ground / naval forces. 

 

 

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Removing the ENEMY markers would do a couple of  things:

1. It would equalize the players performance, the performance of a player wouldn't depend exclusively on the performance of their plane but also on the level of their awarness.
2. Uptiers wouldn't be as frustrating cuz of the point no. 2.

3. It would make bombers and attackers more useful as their performance in a battle depends heavily on staying undetected. 

4. It would make the air RB at least a tiny bit more realistic.

5. It would make things like heavy fighters (do217s, potezs, p61 to a certain extent), and non-meta fighters (US naval jet fighters) useful becouse since they are mostly completely outperformed by the enemy fighters they RELY on the element of surprise just as multiple lightly armoured vehicles (m18, t92, pt76, bmps etc.). THATS the reason why their br is a lot lower in AB compared to RB. They have to remain UNDETECTED in order to PERFORM.

To achieve your goals, you don't need to eliminate markers. More you need:

1. BR decompression, current 1 BR up and down spread is way too much, max should be 0.7.

2. Better map design, with dispersed and shifted from the main fighters clash structure of ground / naval targets. Ruhr and Norway are (almost) good examples. Today I had a game with about 20 tank-kill playing Me410 on the far sides of the Ruhr map - I finished it intact.

3. More interesting and relevant to the course of the match ground / naval targets. And it's not just about f..tickets - I mean something interesting, such as turning off the radar station or power station or destroying the bridge, which results in an easy bombing of the concentration of tanks and other vehicles...which results in the airport being cut off from logistics, so you can not refuel / rearm. And so on.


BTW.. @MH4UAstragon  

Thanks for trolling and spamming another topic with your old ideas. 

Not to mention that it concerned top tier jets - something you don't have the slightest idea about, because you simply don't played these planes yet.

Edited April 14, 2019 by Einherjer1979

[MH4UAstragon 9,581]

2 hours ago, Skeptical_Bunny said:

You were one of those that argued for the cannon buff to happen after Gaijin had boosted the .50 100% instead of fixing them, like they should have done. And now that the cannon boost has happened and all weapons are unrealistically strong we have a different problem, one that those boosts are directly responsible for creating. Bombers and attackers dies super fast, a bomber like the B17 can be taken down super easy. This is the result of what you fought so hard to get. Wouldn't you rather go back to how it was before, but with the sparks issue fixed? Though rounds that doesn't have AP markings should look like they are sparking, F, FI, I, IT, T rounds have almost no penetration value. Incendiary rounds should have a high chance of causing fire on a plane that has a fuel leak and all fragmentation rounds should cause a little damage on every hit in a wide cone from the spot they hit and in the direction they were traveling, this damage should be shrapnel damage, but the hit itself should just look like a spark to the one that fired the round. The same goes for HE rounds without AP value should also look like sparkles, or rather like small explosions on the target.

The funny thing about this is when people were complaining a lot about sparkles I saw it a bit differently, when I was attacked by players and they went "F****ing sparkles" they left my plane with damage everywhere I got hit, the damage wasn't heavy, but it was there and my plane was harder to fly. So I would say it wasn't all just sparkles..

Oh I know full well I was one of the people wanting to see significant gun damage buffs on everything back then. When combined with the markers spoiling surprise attacks sometimes a snapshot was all you had against a better-turning opponent. I still found it hilariously stupid that the bombers I was flying semi-regularly at the time (Do-217s) were soaking up such ridiculous amounts of damage it wasn’t even funny, even the likes of Russian 37mm guns.

 

Currently FI, FI-T, HEF-SAPI, and I rounds are in need of corrective buffs. 

 

Also its easy enough to complain about “xxxxing sparkles” when the enemy plane’s flight performance doesn’t get affected by the key first pass and then reverses on you to kill you despite you surprising him first. I still think that’s absolute bull.

 

The weak DMs of nonfighters don’t bother me actually. I’d rather have mostly glass bombers than flying tank gunships that eat 500+ cannon shells before finally burning down. Their lack of useful purpose due to the “hostile team has lost all its vehicles” autowin on the other hand does. 

2 hours ago, Skeptical_Bunny said:

Then put your effort more into getting that released and running full time instead of putting your effort on something that's likely never going to happen. That's something I can see myself supporting, because I was looking forward to EC mode, was hoping it could be something that could replace Air RB fully and it would likely be easier for AB players to get into RB in EC because of the endless spawns. EC is also our best bet for getting a fully mixed Plane-Tank platform where you do not have to enter having a plane or a tank in your lineup.

Well so long as there is total silence from the dev team on whether we’ll EVER get markerless RBEC released full time to the RB Air playerbase, the only other alternative is to drastically reform normal RB Air to make the nonfighters actually worth something - and they cannot be worth much of anything so long as fighters can win & auto-end all by themselves. To prevent spam of nonfighters I want to see the airbase destruction and 1:1 ground unit self destruction be turned off as well. 

 

The updates on the Ruhr map prove without a doubt that they CAN turn off autowin bleeds if they want to. They did precisely that on that map, probably to test new bomber objective structure.

 

Turning off the TDM autowin bleed does not make TDM less important - it just makes it not as smothering on the planes that aren’t built to perform TDM. 

1 hour ago, Skeptical_Bunny said:

You're forgetting about the "can be seen from the pilot seat/gunner positions" If you're going to sneak up on an unsuspecting fighter and surprise it fully, then you just have to set up the attack so you come in from an angle where he CANNOT see you due to parts of his own plane blocking the LoS. The progressive spotting would only show you markers on planes that the pilot of your planes can see from his seat. Friendlies spotting planes that are around you doesn't help YOU if your pilot doesn't have free LoS to the plane.

And if the player in question isn’t looking behind them directly they should not get automatic detection of a guy tailing him in any way, shape, or form. 

 

I would like to see IL-2-like spotting with this in mind but I can imagine the game having a very buggy implementation of such a mechanic, at least initially. 

48 minutes ago, Einherjer1979 said:

To achieve your goals, you don't need to eliminate markers. More you need:

1. BR decompression, current 1 BR up and down spread is way too much, max should be 0.7.

That would help all sorts of planes, not just nonfighters and their lack of purpose.

48 minutes ago, Einherjer1979 said:

2. Better map design, with dispersed and shifted from the main fighters clash structure of ground / naval targets. Ruhr and Norway are (almost) good examples. Today I had a game with about 20 tank-kill playing Me410 on the far sides of the Ruhr map - I finished it intact.

Good idea & all, but how do you prevent fighters from purposely sky-camping overtop of these spread out targets? Also while I too have had lucky games like that, its far more the norm to see someone drop everything and zergrush me despite the TDM goal winning games 99.9% of the time, which is just silly. This is instagated by the kill feed, markers, and map design making it damn near impossible for an attacker that has been spotted to escape. 

 

We can at least see refinement of markers like @Skeptical_Bunny is talking about combined with removal of the kill feed. Pilots wouldn’t be able to see enemy aircraft markers through the engine blocks, floors, and tails of their planes. Also in some cases straight behind if they have armored headrests. But its not like the enemy team needs to know if an attacker sneezed on some AAA or a tank 40km away. The Awareness skill and AI gunner skills should be completely meaningless in Realistic.

 

Everything is worth trying out, eventually something will jive well enough with the bulk of the playerbase. 

53 minutes ago, Einherjer1979 said:

3. More interesting and relevant to the course of the match ground / naval targets. And it's not just about f..tickets - I mean something interesting, such as turning off the radar station or power station or destroying the bridge, which results in an easy bombing of the concentration of tanks and other vehicles...which results in the airport being cut off from logistics, so you can not refuel / rearm. And so on.

All good ideas. There are indeed plenty of possible options to allow nonfighters to actually help the fighters. Such as EC’s modular airfields - a bomber could heavily crater the runway and make it impossible to land without crashing (and obviously whichever bomber makes a crater a landing plane trips on would get the kill credit for it). Likewise something similar could be done regarding tanks falling in big bomb craters. Bridges are already targets on some maps that do exactly what you suggest here. Unsure what bombing a radar station would do - maybe greatly reduce enemy marker range for all planes not equipped with radar?

 

But as long as games end in roughly 7min or so from one team dying there is really not all that much extra you can add to bomber or attacker usefulness because ultimately they’re still unnecessary to win from a fighter’s perspective. Remove the autowin bleed and then a bunch more options open up. Tickets sorta represent strategic blows, and besides immediate effects, destroying a power station or radar station or bridge would also take chunks of tickets.

59 minutes ago, Einherjer1979 said:

BTW.. @MH4UAstragon  

Thanks for trolling and spamming another topic with your old ideas. 

Not to mention that it concerned top tier jets - something you don't have the slightest idea about, because you simply don't played these planes yet.

I don’t need to play top tier jets to see things are broken, because the objective structure does not change at any tier beyond 2.7 BR. It’s easy to understand.

- one side is clogged with useless nonmeta planes and thus starts most games at a big disadvantage.

- the missile warning makes the slower undedog top tiers almost incapable of catching the top plane unless the top plane badly screws up.

- the side not clogged with useless nonmeta planes also happens to have a stupidly overpowered top tier supersonic.

- due to absurd repair bills in Tiers 3 & 4 for years, the players of the nation with the OP plane have had to get really good or they’d go broke, that skill translates more or less to top tiers as well

- people spammed out the OP plane so much and the other two nations riding the statpadder wave so much that “Emergency Symmetrical Matchmaking” was turned on. 

 

I also understand that due to P2W crew skills for G force tolerance, Stamina, Expert Qualification, and Ace Qualification, combat in top tiers becomes incredibly homogeneous towards whoever is the fastest, and whoever’s not the fastest is just food unless the fastest guy flys poorly. Combat homogeneity is why I’m not particularly interested. With spam of Losing Control maneuverability doesn’t matter that much. With wing rip being a constant pain in the neck that adds to the problem. 

 

And the same objective structure failures from lower ranks exist unchanged at top tiers.