[Discussion] Balance, Bias, Matchmaking and Battle Ratings

[Uncle J Wick@live 407]

7 hours ago, Andychumbo289248 said:

Don't get me wrong, I do stomp at times when I am up-tiered, but the number of uptiers that i get is beyond ridiculous, and that is at every BR I play.

 

I am with you man.

As i play Air RB only and preferred 4.0/5.0 planes i can't remember when i had a full downtier in an IT/SWE/JP plane.

As i wrote earlier the IT P-47 produce currently 80% full uptiers to 6.0, my 4.0 B-18B around 70-75% full uptiers to 5.0 and my SM 92 about 50-60%. All other matches are 0.7 or very rare 0.3 uptiers. So at the end of this uptier chain somebody must have a hell of downtiers :.-)

 

7 hours ago, Edo_惊鸿游雪 said:

In fact, the game between the arcade zero cost aircraft and the high maintenance cost of wz305 is not balanced, wz305 income is low, maintenance cost is high, he almost had to kill four full wave of aircraft before it is possible to pay back, gaijin income makes this vehicle accessories play very difficult and often loss

 

No offense bro, but your auto translator is producing results which are hard, almost impossible to understand. It looks like that you claimed that some repair cost (maintenance in your text) and spading (accessories?) issues. Try a better translator mate!

 

Have a good one! 

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Uncle J Wick@live

[Edo_惊鸿游雪 4]

4 hours ago, Uncle J Wick@live said:

 

I am with you man.

As i play Air RB only and preferred 4.0/5.0 planes i can't remember when i had a full downtier in an IT/SWE/JP plane.

As i wrote earlier the IT P-47 produce currently 80% full uptiers to 6.0, my 4.0 B-18B around 70-75% full uptiers to 5.0 and my B7A2 about 60%. All other matches are 0.7 or very rare 0.3 uptiers. So at the end of this uptier chain somebody must have a hell of downtiers :.-)

 

 

No offense bro, but your auto translator is producing results which are hard, almost impossible to understand. It looks like that you claimed that some repair cost (maintenance in your text) and spading (accessories?) issues. Try a better translator mate!

 

Have a good one! 

 

thanks

[AlfiestheName 60]

13 hours ago, Zucc_Boi said:

With economy changes reverted, I think it's a step too little too late. I occasionally return to Israeli aircraft, and their repair costs are absolutely horrendous. Compared to their actual capabilities, they're just horrid. Most top tier Israeli aircraft like the F-16, Kfir C7, Kfir C2, Kurnass, Kurnass 2000 are still using their stock AAMs as their main ones, with only the Kurnass 2000 having AIM-7F in addition. 

France has been using an almost exact equivalent of these aircrafts' AAM - Python 3, named Magic 2. Their stats are near identical, both being short ranged and having 35G pull. France has 35G missiles at 10.0, while their all-aspect variants are around 11.3.

I suggest either lowering Israeli aircraft BRs at top tiers, e.g. Kfir C7 down to 10.7 to avoid 12.0, or keep them where they are and give them Python 3.

 

All Israeli aircraft you mentioned carried and used the Python 3. It should get them in the update. 

[PEAKVIRGIN 1,254]

1 minute ago, AlfiestheName said:

 

All Israeli aircraft you mentioned carried and used the Python 3. It should get them in the update. 

Nope all aircrafts that would get Python should go to minimum 11.3

[AlfiestheName 60]

1 minute ago, PEAKVIRGIN said:

Nope all aircrafts that would get Python should go to minimum 11.3

 

Knowing Gaijin, they probably will exclude the C2 from mounting Python 3s owing to it's 10.7 BR. The rest are 11.3 and above. 

[Zucc_Boi 656]

17 minutes ago, AlfiestheName said:

 

All Israeli aircraft you mentioned carried and used the Python 3. It should get them in the update. 

Origin nations rarely get their vehicles/weapons first if they were used by multiple nations. Both Python 3 and Spike were shown in the trailer, but not a single Israeli vehicle.

[AlfiestheName 60]

Just now, Zucc_Boi said:

Origin nations rarely get their vehicles/weapons first if they were used by multiple nations. Both Python 3 and Spike were shown in the trailer, but not a single Israeli vehicle.

 

It's unreasonable to expect a trailer to fully encompass the update in it's entirety. Not even the Dev blog does that. 

 

The *only* way I see Gaijin pulling that trickery is by drawing distinction to the licensed copy of the Python rather than the Python itself. Israel does need the missile though, their top tier air platforms could use the edge in the medium range heater area. 

[Zucc_Boi 656]

55 minutes ago, AlfiestheName said:

 

It's unreasonable to expect a trailer to fully encompass the update in it's entirety. Not even the Dev blog does that. 

 

The *only* way I see Gaijin pulling that trickery is by drawing distinction to the licensed copy of the Python rather than the Python itself. Israel does need the missile though, their top tier air platforms could use the edge in the medium range heater area. 

It's unreasonable to expect that because we've grown accustomed to it. There's practically no reason not to implement the same item or category of item to every nation simultaneously, but there are many reasons to do that, like balance. Python can be added as-is to Israel right now. Spikes could be added, if Gaijin actually listened to the playerbase and stopped adding more Magachs, and instead would add actually interesting vehicles like it does for Russia every update.

[AlfiestheName 60]

3 hours ago, Zucc_Boi said:

It's unreasonable to expect that because we've grown accustomed to it. There's practically no reason not to implement the same item or category of item to every nation simultaneously, but there are many reasons to do that, like balance. Python can be added as-is to Israel right now. Spikes could be added, if Gaijin actually listened to the playerbase and stopped adding more Magachs, and instead would add actually interesting vehicles like it does for Russia every update.

The F-16 and the Tornado was probably the first planes in a long while where I have seen it issued to multiple countries upon release. Despite saying nations would only get one tier 8 at a time, I believe Italy got the Tornado and F-16 while Germany had to wait for it's 29 variant later on. I agree with you, but I am simply going off experience, not what I would like to see.

[Zucc_Boi 656]

9 hours ago, AlfiestheName said:

The F-16 and the Tornado was probably the first planes in a long while where I have seen it issued to multiple countries upon release. Despite saying nations would only get one tier 8 at a time, I believe Italy got the Tornado and F-16 while Germany had to wait for it's 29 variant later on. I agree with you, but I am simply going off experience, not what I would like to see.

Saying they all got the F-16 is a bit of a stretch. There's still a major/minor nation segmentation here. Israel's F-16 for example had its BVR capability removed, as well as some of its ground attack options. This happened despite Gaijin employing a policy of "If it was designed to fit it, it'll have it in game" - most recently for the Yak-141.

[ТhеКомгаdе 864]

Edited May 19, 2023 by ТhеКомгаdе

[Zucc_Boi 656]

On 19/05/2023 at 09:46, PEAKVIRGIN said:

Nope all aircrafts that would get Python should go to minimum 11.3

I don't mind the Kfir C7 not getting a Python 3 but going down to 10.7, and Kfir C2 going down to 10.3 (because 2 missiles only).

[AlfiestheName 60]

3 hours ago, Zucc_Boi said:

I don't mind the Kfir C7 not getting a Python 3 but going down to 10.7, and Kfir C2 going down to 10.3 (because 2 missiles only).

 

The performance of those two planes, coupled with 4 and 2 AiM-9Gs respectively would be decently powerful. 

 

They should get Python 3s however as that's what was used. Gaijin have long used weapon loadouts to balance planes (23-MF getting all aspects before the MLD/MLAs did comes to mind) but the Kfir C7 is very underwhelming. It lacks a decent CM load to duke it out for extended periods, lacks a radar (historical, but still ****) and features 9Gs. The performance of the airframe is still pretty good.. good enough to be at 11.3. 

[Zucc_Boi 656]

1 hour ago, AlfiestheName said:

They should get Python 3s however as that's what was used. Gaijin have long used weapon loadouts to balance planes (23-MF getting all aspects before the MLD/MLAs did comes to mind) but the Kfir C7 is very underwhelming. It lacks a decent CM load to duke it out for extended periods, lacks a radar (historical, but still ****) and features 9Gs. The performance of the airframe is still pretty good.. good enough to be at 11.3. 

Anything above and including 11.0 is just a front for 12.0 food. Only when there is 12.7 the Kfir C7 won't be pulled into top tier. Until then, it's only top tier - and there it does not have the performance. First, F-16 and Mig-29 outperform it in every scenario. Second, it cannot outrun even Phantoms because they can force it to maneuver and bleed out all its energy, due to its dorito wing design. And with only rear aspect missiles and no redeeming trait, there's no way this can be a top tier aircraft.

So at the moment it should be 10.7, maybe 11.0 if using Python 3.

 

With all that said, BR decompression is still long overdue and is actually very easy to pull off in air compared to ground and mixed. Gaijin can simply decide to create additional BR system in which air RB and ground RB are separate.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Zucc_Boi

[Wolfen757 15]

On 01/05/2023 at 04:25, Uncle J Wick@live said:

 

I am not sure if you are aware of the basic rules/goals for all f2p:

 

• Find a mix of success and frustration in order to keep players addicted
• Create imbalances on purpose in order to earn money as premium vehicles are usually suited to overcome some imbalances

 

In other words for wt: Encourage people to buy undertiered premiums to kill overtiered tech tree vehicles.

 

The mm, gameplay setup, team compositions, BR settings and much more are just there to support these goals.

 

I mean there is nothing wrong with this, as all f2p games work like this and they have to pay their bills too.

So striving for fair and balanced gameplay is honorable but it is imho simply a mission impossible in a f2p game.

 

 

I'm not running into "undertiered premiums" 99% of my battles.  Sometimes maybe, but not as often as that.

There's some other trigger it seems.

 

All f2p games give some advantage to "buyers" sure - else they won't survive.  But this doesn't explain how I'm uptiered as often as I am.  It's practically every battle.  How many premium buyers can there be?  So many that they are playing against each other and have no real advantage?

 

[Uncle J Wick@live 407]

38 minutes ago, Wolfen757 said:

I'm not running into "undertiered premiums" 99% of my battles.  Sometimes maybe, but not as often as that.

There's some other trigger it seems.

 

All f2p games give some advantage to "buyers" sure - else they won't survive.  But this doesn't explain how I'm uptiered as often as I am.  It's practically every battle.  How many premium buyers can there be?  So many that they are playing against each other and have no real advantage?

 

I am partially with you regarding the comprehensible advantage for premium planes.

Arguing with a f2p game is imho nor really the right answer.

I mean gaijin decided that they might get more money with a f2p game compared to offering a full developed full price game and add-ons.

 

I flew today a hell of matches in Air RB in 2 BR 4.0 TT planes (SM92 and B-18B).

I finished 2 daily and 3 special tasks in 28 matches. 19 wins, 9 defeats, all hell of kills, i got 6 times killed.

I had not a single downtier, 22 full uptiers to BR 5.0, 5 uptiers to BR 4.7, one uptier to 4.3.

All my defeats were full uptiers, 6 of my 6 my planes losses happened in full uptiers (i crashed one time as i was stupid).

And yes, i ran in hordes of Wyverns, XP-50s, J2M5s and french Yak-3s, all premiums, but i killed a lot of them..

 

I do not really complain about the full uptiers from a game play perspective. Both of my planes are fully aced with maxed crews and are good enough to compete against TT planes at 5.0. The problem is mostly that your team can't handle the performance advantage of their opponents and sooner or later you got simply outnumbered.

 

So i agree with you, there must be somewhere another trigger... 

 

Btw: The best match (not regarding my own performance, i was bad) was a 2 vs 10 comeback and turnaround - ofc in the only 4.3 match. All i had to do was playing bait and distract some enemies and my teammate scored 8 kills in an overtiered TT plane (J-22B). And ofc with luck - i lost connection right at spawning and rejoined with fried engines. But for such matches i love war thunder, their last guy had 4000 points ticket lead and camped af aaa, but he messed up, the J-22 got him seconds before the timer ran out....take a beverage and watch the player beowulf:

 

  https://warthunder.com//en/tournament/replay/71333754612278637

 

 

42 minutes ago, Wolfen757 said:

How many premium buyers can there be?

 

According to fellow players in this forum you have 70-80% premium planes in high tier battles....

 

[Imaflyingturkey 114]

The USSR top tier tanks really need the spalling to be fixed like its stupid how you can shoot it and it just doesnt spall or the era just eats the shell

 

Also the non explosive ammo is BS and just stupid

[Wolfen757 15]

11 hours ago, Imaflyingturkey said:

The USSR top tier tanks really need the spalling to be fixed like its stupid how you can shoot it and it just doesnt spall or the era just eats the shell

 

Also the non explosive ammo is BS and just stupid

You mean like most of the British tanks have?

On 20/05/2023 at 19:03, Uncle J Wick@live said:

Btw: The best match (not regarding my own performance, i was bad) was a 2 vs 10 comeback and turnaround - ofc in the only 4.3 match. All i had to do was playing bait and distract some enemies and my teammate scored 8 kills in an overtiered TT plane (J-22B). And ofc with luck - i lost connection right at spawning and rejoined with fried engines. But for such matches i love war thunder, their last guy had 4000 points ticket lead and camped af aaa, but he messed up, the J-22 got him seconds before the timer ran out....take a beverage and watch the player beowulf:

So far only had 1 air battle run out the timer.  We had the lead, and it was 1 vs 3 toward the end.  Our team-mate managed to dodge and not get killed running out the timer.  Was quite tense.

[Wolfen757 15]

On 20/05/2023 at 19:03, Uncle J Wick@live said:

I do not really complain about the full uptiers from a game play perspective. Both of my planes are fully aced with maxed crews and are good enough to compete against TT planes at 5.0. The problem is mostly that your team can't handle the performance advantage of their opponents and sooner or later you got simply outnumbered.

Unfortunately for me - my crews are not even close to max.  My highest BR (Germany) has 5.7 on ground and 4.3 in air.  So getting uptiered in lower BRs might have a bigger impact - especially if those in the uptier are marshals with ... maxed out crews.

I'm prob an avg player - I hover around 50% with 95% of my battles uptiered.  On the few occaisions it's even (3.3 vs 3.3 for example) I do better and often place in top 3.  There's just not enough of those.  Game can get frustrating.

[Uncle J Wick@live 407]

31 minutes ago, Wolfen757 said:

My highest BR (Germany) has 5.7 on ground and 4.3 in air.

 

It looks like you play combined arms. I like tanks too, but i play prop planes only. I love the insight in your Ground RB stuff whilst watching OddBawz & Co on yt, but this pixel hunting is nothing for me. And - the design of your mode prevents you from maxing out your multiple crew slots very fast.

 

To have an (earned) ace crew on lev 75 helps you a lot in Air RB is you are able to create 1 vs 1s - but the new 16 vs 16 team setup makes this even more rare, so most of my kills came from positional advantage, not from 1 vs 1s.

 

Germany itself in Air RB dominated your BR range for years, the introduction of mixed teams broke their ruling. If you are able to master the 109F-4 you have a good weapon, than the G-6. But then you are screwed - 5.0 drags you into the black hole of the Ju 288s. Usually more experienced pilots stay out of this BR range as it is really not everybody's cup of tea to fight constantly against undertiered US/GB planes in constant uptiers whilst being outnumbered...

 

Anyway, good luck and have a good one!

 

[Imaflyingturkey 114]

14 hours ago, Wolfen757 said:

You mean like most of the British tanks have?

 

talking about  top tier

[theKEY 68]

can gaijin please remove the ability for midfield AA to radar lock you. 

they are everywhere
and you cant tell if its a plane or a enemy

please, would be a great QoL change 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by theKEY

[Valcour 1,141]

On 22/05/2023 at 17:14, Wolfen757 said:

You mean like most of the British tanks have?

 

Also French

[_J_ackal_ 284]

Xm-1 needs a better shell. Most games are uptiers and having to face turms and other soviet vehicles that can't be reliably penetrated is frustrating

[Valcour 1,141]

Another wonderful evening of Gaijin's Steamroller matchmaking.   The only thing good I can say about it is that it has uncovered a deep streak of Masochism of which I was previously unaware.   As an example of good game design, well there is nothing good to say there.

 

Where does Gaijin have a problem with both sides of a battle having a near equal chance?

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by Valcour