The biggest problem

[Juuzaam 160]

On 10.8.2017 at 7:11 PM, *Toastfrenzy said:

But on the flip side is the "game" not telling you that it's time to move on to a more difficult mode now that you've reached such completeness within AB....

 

maybe? 

There is a problem you dont want to mention and a thing you dont know. A lot [100]s are playing RB with a lot success or played it for a realy long time, but the majority just doesnt like the pace of a RB match. It just takes to long to get into any kind of action while you sometimes dont have any fun at all. Sim is even worse...so there is no "more difficult mode".

 

On 10.8.2017 at 8:38 PM, Hohum33 said:

If people wanted to learn about air combat, there is a decent choice of sources available to learn from. (youtube, books, other players).

Believe it or not, this is not true. The truth: A lot youtube guides, and forum posts and i dunno what kind of things i watched readed, didnt teached me anything important at all. Even the realy good guides are so basic and are missing a lot important infos. 

 

22 hours ago, Tigerspook said:

I wouldn't ask [100] players for help because I don't want to be like them.

I am sure you dont like the way we play, but the basic skills, you would learn pretty fast with us, are useful, no matter the way you play.

 

22 hours ago, Tigerspook said:

... Seriously. If I had to spawn camp to win I'd quit. Seriously.

If you say something like this, you imply that we are xxxx, so once and for all. We do not play to win, we also do not spawncamp to win, we dont xxxx care about the result of a match. If we actualy would care about it, we would not spawncamp. Because this is not how you win a match!

We want to have fun, shoot at planes, turn and dogfight, work as a team vs real players...that we often end at the enemy spawn is just natural.

[Juuzaam 160]

15 hours ago, King_Samo said:

Hello Pennywort! I am a huge fan of you 100 guys, do you guys offer training's or anything like that to help out the unworthy ones like myself ? I for one would certainly like to learn from you. So there, i am asking for help.

 

Oops, double post. Ofcourse you are free to join our TS3 and fly with us, nothing unusual at all, almost everyone is welcome. If you got any questions, ask these on the ts3 during the games.

[Hohum33 680]

1 hour ago, Juuzaam said:

Believe it or not, this is not true. The truth: A lot youtube guides, and forum posts and i dunno what kind of things i watched readed, didnt teached me anything important at all. Even the realy good guides are so basic and are missing a lot important infos. 

 

 

There is plenty available, but I agree, there is a lot of substandard stuff.

 

REALLY want to learn air combat: Read "Fighter Combat: Tactics and maneuvering" by Robert L Shaw

 

On youtube, long5hot, GrmlZGaming, Bismarck, magzTV all have good guides and/or analysis of air combat. (long5hots massive use of the broken rudder AB FM irritates me to no end...  but, to be fair, it's gaijin's fault for having it, not his for using it).

 

If you see someone in game who you think is skilled. Message them politely. Ask them about their techniques. People often like talking about their skills.

 

 

 

 

 

[CloCloZ 375]

5 hours ago, Swearengen said:

So basically the "Biggest problem" of this game is that players do not acknowledge that your a great player and don't ask for you to share your knowledge? 

 

Get over yourself, it's a game...

 

 

 

Lol

 

 

 

[cashmeowsidehbd 1,269]

The point about spawn camping is the mass of squad players literally flying all over each other to get the next spawning player. And if one player tries to climb at the outset to protect his spawn point he is usually rammed or faces a head on from an expert player (or two, or three in succession) for his troubles. Even in my higher Br range planes-6-6.3, all of my teammates have already given up on it and just dive to ground attack or join the furball, where at least they will have a fighting chance of surviving through the mission. Going high at the start of the mission in any Br over 5, when there are any "100" squad players (there is more than one) is suicide. The amazing thing to me is the number of very highly skilled and 100 level players that play the lower tiers, below 2.7 or so, that don't spawn camp and do much better than the typical spawn camper does a s far as kills is concerned. This is the only reason i have left the higher tiered missions and gone lower. Not to spam new players but to get into actual dog fights with skilled players who can actually use them. And i am learning quite a bit from playing against them . A lot more than i learn from getting shot in the back as soon as i re-spawn.

[Hohum33 680]

... additionally, practising in a custom battle with another player while on voice comms with them is invaluable. They can tell you which of your manuevers threw of their aim the best, advise on the best timing of avoidance manuevers, how to best line up a firing solution, compare turn rates, how to deal with dissimilar aircraft - lots of stuff.

 

Plus - watch replays. *server* replays are the best, because you can ghost every single player in the game, and it captures everyone's mouselook (or equivalent).  Leave your ego at the door, and see what really happened - no, they probably didn't do something magical - more often that not; what you thought happened, is not what really happened at all. 

[Pat_McGherkin 2,074]

"I haven't been playing long so I was wondering how you managed to kill me 5 times before I was able to do anything?"

    "I spawncamped you with my l33t awesomeness, and a few friends."

"How can I become a better pilot and kill things like you can?"

     "Spawncamp."

"I don't want to spawncamp, perhaps you can teach me how to win games instead?"

    "Er..maybe try YouTube."

"Um, ok..well maybe I'll just quit WT instead."

 

 

I can think of several ways you can assist new and not so new players to become better pilots. Smashing them repeatedly at spawn probably wouldn't make the list.

Do you ever pm any of your victims to offer advice? - or maybe they have quit the game before you get a chance. Do you ever use game chat to help your targets with a few tips or maybe even warn them that they will be spawncamped, or would the ensuing challenge be too great? 

 

 

I didn't think so...

Edited August 12, 2017 by Pat_McGherkin

[GregKjr 520]

4 hours ago, VaperTrail said:

 

The last time I climbed and hung back to protect our spawn no spawn campers turned up lol  so I wasted much time in a short game for nothing. *1 I played a game last night and my team never got any kills at all as there were like 5-6 Spawn campers wiping them out, I was on the other side of the map and had 12 kills and never lost a plane  so didn't have to deal with them all, I felt like side climbing up to them but the games being so short Im not wasting that amount of time, my team was going mental in the chat complaining about them and most of my team was around 10 level and just couldn't do anything at the spawn except die.

 

The real *2 victims of spawn campers are new players that don't know what to do but get killed, *3 any 100 level player that thinks spawn camping newbies is fair game is a spawn camper trying to justify doing it,  if they want to show us how good their skills are why don't they sit below the spawn and give the newbies an advantage on them at least it would be sporting, oh no cant do that its more fun shooting blind guppies in a barrel.

 

Ive never liked spawn camping in any online shooter its always the same deal its purely an advantage for clubbing newbies, be like boxing and the bell rings and your opponent is standing over you throwing punches before you can get off the stool, its not sporting at all and Gaijin should implement a no go zone to stop it.

*1 so rather than helping the level 10 guys you chose to go get 12 kills ... ok I can see how you might want to make that call.  but how do you then justify blaming the guys you chose not to engage for taking out the guys you abandoned?

 

*2 to imply thy are victims is to imply thy have a right to fly out and do what thy want in a PvP game unmolested by other players.... by that measure thy are victims of your abandonment. further more if thy don't want the PvP experience warts and all should thy not go play a PvE game if that is the case?

 

*3 the level of the player is not a indication of PvP experience and even less so of skill. so calling out level 100 players for your perceived beliefs of what thy are thinking is hardly a fair metric to judge them by.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, cashmeowsidehbd said:

The point about spawn camping is the mass of squad players literally flying all over each other to get the next spawning player. And *1 if one player tries to climb at the outset to protect his spawn point he is usually rammed or faces a head on from an expert player (or two, or three in succession) for his troubles. Even in my higher Br range planes-6-6.3, *2 all of my teammates have already given up on it and just dive to ground attack or join the furball, where at least they will have a fighting chance of surviving through the mission. Going high at the start of the mission in any Br over 5, when there are any *3 "100" squad players (there is more than one) is suicide. The amazing thing to me is the number of very highly skilled and *3 100 level players that play the lower tiers, below 2.7 or so, that don't spawn camp and do much better than the typical spawn camper does a s far as kills is concerned. This is the only reason i have left the higher tiered missions and gone lower. Not to spam new players but to get into actual dog fights with skilled players who can actually use them. And i am learning quite a bit from playing against them . A lot more than i learn from getting shot in the back as soon as i re-spawn.

*1 yes being the only person to attempt to cover the spawn is a up hill fight... but at the same time it's not the fault of the guys you fight that your team is leaving you to die for them.

 

*2 yes it is a problem but still it is not the fault of the opposing team that your team is spineless/lazy

 

*3 as I have said before player level is not a factor ... the player base needs to get over psychologically dooming them selves over a arbitrary big number.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Pat_McGherkin said:

"I haven't been playing long so I was wondering how you managed to kill me 5 times before I was able to do anything?"

    "I spawncamped you with my l33t awesomeness, and a few friends."

"How can I become a better pilot and kill things like you can?"

     "Spawncamp."

"I don't want to spawncamp, perhaps you can teach me how to win games instead?"

    "Er..maybe try YouTube."

"Um, ok..well maybe I'll just quit WT instead."

 

 

I can think of several ways you can assist new and not so new players to become better pilots. Smashing them repeatedly at spawn probably wouldn't make the list.

Do you ever pm any of your victims to offer advice? - or maybe they have quit the game before you get a chance. Do you ever use game chat to help your targets with a few tips or maybe even warn them that they will be spawncamped, or would the ensuing challenge be too great? 

 

 

I didn't think so...

I'm not even going to try to address your post except to say .... you have submitted a fictional conversation between two fictional people as evidence to support your argument ....

come on friend that's intellectually dishonest and frankly I had hopped more from you.

 

 

 

In the end beliefs and accusations like the ones posted here are rife with logical fallacies, contradictory principles, and intellectual dishonesty.

and so thy represent a belief structure (yes a religious belief structure) that no logical person can help people escape from to better them selves. as it requires questioning the very underlying beliefs them selves.

 

no one can help you until you accept responsibility for the choices you make.

 

*disclaimer

I probably missed some spelling/grammar mistakes

[VaperTrail 343]

So what your really saying GregKjr is that you play spawn camp style ?

 

In my game I mentioned, by the time Id seen what was going on over my spawn I was too far away to go back and try to do something, I thought if I get killed I will have a go at them when I spawn.

 

Love your choice of words like abandonment of my team, it nearly brought a tear to my eye as I thought off my poor team mates striving to learn and have a little fun only to get savaged by a team of 100 players, I guessed these ones must have been the real good 100 players and not the ordinary 100 players you speak of by the way they went through them, even though 100 level does not mean youre an ace I gotta say I cant  remember seeing a 100 player that was not infinitely better than a 10 level player, especially when the 100 player has ALL the advantages.

 

You will never convince me that Spawn Camping in War Thunder is an honorable way to play.

Edited August 12, 2017 by VaperTrail

[Touched_Grass 758]

6 hours ago, Hohum33 said:

(long5hots massive use of the broken rudder AB FM irritates me to no end...  but, to be fair, it's gaijin's fault for having it, not his for using it).

Um, what broken rudder? Are you talking about the combined usage of yaw and elevator? That's a feature, sir, or would you rather have all game modes use the same flight model?

[esapekkis 2,659]

10 hours ago, GregKjr said:

@esapekkis

I was thinking along the same kind of lines as you about the difficulty thing ......  but with the slight twist that the spotting mechanic as a whole in SIM leads to a less chaotic environment and thus the *situational awareness (SA) requirement is less task loading on the player.

 

If I had to guess (and yes it is a wiled speculation) RB air would be the most difficult environment for a sim player as you have most of the task of flying the aircraft and most of the task of managing your SA.

ware as in AB air your flight skills are not as important as in RB/SIM (even with joystick) but the AB SA task loading is far grater than any other game mode at the T3 to T4 range as most of the player base plays in that range <--- but that's not what the thread is about so......

 

Yes, I would rank the the situational awareness as the most important skill to have in AB (well, actually in all Air modes). While it might not make you king of the 1v1 tournaments, in my opinnion it is the differnce in this skill which causes someone have "only" a handfull airvictories while the better ones racks up 20+ kills in a game. Of course you need to know your plane too and have a decent aim, but in those are easier to learn and come without effort after you get used to it. Andt while I agree that SA requires a lot in AB, I have to dissagree heavily that keeping situnational awareness less demanding in SB. But since that is offtopic, lets just say that SA emphasizes on different things in all modes

[long5hot 7,302]

In the couple of weeks since I've returned to WT after a 6 month hiatus, I've noticed nearly every battle there's someone bleating about spawn campers. As far as I can tell the definition of "spawn camping" seems to be BnZing fighter with an altitude advantage, within 5km of the spawn area.  It doesn't matter whether the enemies are being killed within seconds of arriving in the battle (which is what I'd consider spawn camping), or if they've had time to circle around, engage in a furball, then decide to climb and stall their plane trying to get to a bomber. If that high fighter shoots them down, they're a filthy spawn camper. 

 

Has the amount of fighters exploiting altitude increased in recent times?  No, its no different to what I saw back in 2013. Back then hardly anyone ever complained about spawn camping, certainly not like they do now.  Why do so many of today's players expect to be able to do whatever they want within a vague radius of their spawn point, for as long as they want, and be free from an enemy shooting them down? And why do they choose to rage about it in the chat instead of using it as an object lesson in what works & what doesn't?  I've done my best to educate people, its the only reason I created a youtube channel, but it seems a futile endeavour :\

[Pat_McGherkin 2,074]

There has been a noticeable increase of spawn camping, by your definition, since the summer event began.

[Hohum33 680]

3 hours ago, _F1LTHY_M3M3R_ said:

Um, what broken rudder? Are you talking about the combined usage of yaw and elevator? That's a feature, sir, or would you rather have all game modes use the same flight model?

 

On aircraft with strong rudder authority, in AB, you can flat turn with rudder only, losing almost no speed. This makes climbing spirals a very effective defense. I don't mind that it's possible to do it in AB - it's likely there for simple control, I mind that it doesn't create enough drag. I'm not suggesting it should be like RB/SB - where you'd probably lose control of the aircraft.

[GregKjr 520]

4 hours ago, VaperTrail said:

You will never convince me that Spawn Camping in War Thunder is an honorable way to play.

The only thing I hope to convince you or any one else of is...

"should you find your self in Jonestown think twice before you drink the Kool-aid"

[Hohum33 680]

Instead of complaining about the players who spawn camp, why don't people complain about the game design that causes it? Baffling.

[Pat_McGherkin 2,074]

14 minutes ago, Hohum33 said:

Instead of complaining about the players who spawn camp, why don't people complain about the game design that causes it? Baffling.

I play the game without any feeling that I need to spawn camp whatsoever. As do the VAST majority of players.

 

There are many things wrong with the game. All of them are completely beyond the control of the players, except spawn camping. The players that do it, do it because they choose to.

 

The game design may allow it but nothing in the game design causes it.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Pat_McGherkin

[blastedryan 967]

36 minutes ago, Pat_McGherkin said:

nothing in the game design causes it.

Asking players to get 11 kills in a battle causes it.

[Pat_McGherkin 2,074]

21 minutes ago, blastedryan said:

Asking players to get 11 kills in a battle causes it.

No, it doesn't.

[CloCloZ 375]

1 hour ago, Pat_McGherkin said:

I play the game without any feeling that I need to spawn camp whatsoever. As do the VAST majority of players.

 

There are many things wrong with the game. All of them are completely beyond the control of the players, except spawn camping. The players that do it, do it because they choose to.

 

The game design may allow it but nothing in the game design causes it.

 

You are right in stressing that spawn camping is a player's choice but in my opinion there is a real design issue too.

The spawn camping issue could be easily mitigated by Gaijin by changing the spawn mechanism, for example setting multiple random spawn points at different places and altitudes.
Just this would vastly reduce spawn camping because: 1) spawn campers would be no more sure to find their victims appearing on the single fixed expected point 2) allowing the random spawn point to be even higher than the highest enemy plane on the area would put spawn campers at the dreadful risk to be attacked from above.
I think that, doing that way, spawn camping in AF could become no more frequent than in GF (where is the norm just at the end of a battle against an already exterminated enemy team, because doing it before would be too risky).

But I'm convinced they'll never do that, since a lot of spawn campers support their "core business" (expert long-time paying players) and they would be damaged by such a change.

Edited August 12, 2017 by CloCloZ

[cashmeowsidehbd 1,269]

Like I said, Gaijin makes a lot of money off of the spawn campers so it will never be addressed by them. Until they take a hit in the pocket book that is. But that isn't going to happen so do what I do. Keep a list of spawn camper squads and when you see them in a mission just quit! Stop being a money making target for Gaijin and their spawn camper $$$$'s and leave the mission. Simple. That is within the game design as well so it isn't cheating either! You get a little time out but just go play another country and then come back. No big deal. And while you are playing that other country you can maybe learn some skills from the high rated players that aren't spawn camping and are still mauling the newer players. And winning the mission. And getting almost double the Silver Lions for winning said mission. If everyone does this than sooner or later there will be no more spawn camping, because there will be no players spawning to camp! Then were will the money come from?

[RedHammer03 1]

Well not exactly they did have the timer on where shots would go through you so they tried to address it but no great ideas have come up. They maybe coming up with a new system, fingers-crossed they do. But one idea that may work is the super arti with the 203mm howitzer only able to hit enemies if in spawn.But not full proof. so meh.

Edited August 12, 2017 by RedHammer03

[long5hot 7,302]

4 hours ago, Pat_McGherkin said:

There has been a noticeable increase of spawn camping, by your definition, since the summer event began.

 

Just curious, if you disagree with my definition of spawn camping, how would you define it? I see lots of complaints, a lot of salted sour grapes here about how spawn campers are low-life cheats etc, but nobody seems to want to detail what camping actually IS in Arcade planes.  

 

For example, in ground-strike earlier today, I climbed with a squad-mate in Bf109 F-4s, secured control of bomber altitude then ran up a fair number of kills at around 4000-6000m altitude.  At the end of the game, a player on the red team was unstinting in his abuse, telling me I was a filthy spawn camper & he'd never watch another of my vids. So out of interest, I looked at how he played the game on the replay. In his first two planes, both Bf109s, he dived to the deck and turned circles in the mid-map furball until he died, while my friend and I feasted on unprotected bombers who tried to climb instead of diving. 

 

Then this guy spawns in a FW190, turned slowly to his right and began to climb at a high Halifax who'd been circling at around 6000m.  He'd been doing this for some 25 seconds, which is an eternity in WT arcade, when I swooped to attack. He saw me coming and had just enough energy to face me for the headon which I pulled up to evade. At this point, low on energy and obviously in danger, a wiser player would have dived to regain speed and/or escape the attack, but no. He dived just enough to recover from his near-stall then began doggedly climbing again as if trying to engage in a looping dogfight, making himself a very easy kill, 45 seconds after he spawned.

 

Then he appears in a Ju-87 D-5, pulls an Immelman and starts climbing again toward the Halifax.  We were 5km away when we saw him, but he was still chugging up in a straight line, doing 100km/h and firing at long range at the bomber, when my friend put him out of his misery.

 

So I ask. Was this "spawn camping"?  Have players become special snowflakes who need safe spaces in War Thunder now?  Do people not understand that when you enter a combat zone, you might actually be shot at and that mistakes will be punished? There have always been players who refuse to accept being shot down in good humour and look to blame & abuse the players who beat them.  To me, that's what most of this rage at "spawn camping" boils down to.

 

Lastly, I see some of you are trotting out the tired old chestnut of "players who do X pay money so Gaijin will never change the game to stop them". What a load of bollocks. That argument's been used for many things in the past, always without any evidence to back it up - its just another whinge to excuse people from actually making suggestions (instead of complaints) to Gaijin to improve the game. And suggestions _have_ been made, the best one being to give Arcade planes a choice of 3 spawn points. You could look on the map before spawning, see where the red dots are fewest and spawn there. That suggestion was put to Gaijin back in 2013 I believe, and at least once since then in a separate suggestions thread - but its gone nowhere. Not because "duh spawn campers are paying them" but because people probably couldn't be bothered to look at those threads and support them with positive comments. They'd rather whine here & quit battles instead.

[Pat_McGherkin 2,074]

I wasn't disagreeing with anything, you defined your interpretation of spawn camping - that is what I have witnessed an increase of.

I have no problem at all with gaining aerial superiority. Defending friendly bombers and attacking enemy bombers is a valid and defendable tactic.

A constant rotation of squad members lined up on the spawn point, dedicated to smashing respawns within seconds of entering the game, in my opinion, is not.

 

Furthermore, on the subject of whinging, crying and bleating, who complains  the loudest when players instantly dive for the deck?- spawn campers.

Ironic when they present their opponents with a choice of dive or die.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Pat_McGherkin

[Brave_Idiot 1,292]

15 minutes ago, long5hot said:

Just curious, if you disagree with my definition of spawn camping, how would you define it?

Not this way:

5 hours ago, long5hot said:

As far as I can tell the definition of "spawn camping" seems to be BnZing fighter with an altitude advantage, within 5km of the spawn area.

But this way:

5 hours ago, long5hot said:

killed within seconds of arriving in the battle

I think spawn camping is counter productive to winning in ABAF.

Having altitude over objectives and proactively countering the reds incursions is a wise way to play, the exact best methodology depends on mode/map.

 

The War Thunder player base average player lacks knowledge and wisdom.

 

I find this game most enjoyable playing aggressively. I get killed a lot. I have 7/8 crews for all nations, why not use them.