The biggest problem

[long5hot 7,302]

5 minutes ago, Pat_McGherkin said:

You defined your interpretation of spawn camping - that is what I have witnessed an increase of.

I have no problem at all with gaining aerial superiority. Defending friendly bombers and attacking enemy bombers is a valid and defendable tactic.

A constant rotation of squad members lined up on the spawn point, dedicated to smashing respawns within seconds of entering the game, in my opinion, is not.

 

Ok, understood. I personally haven't seen that myself yet, maybe haven't played enough games (or at the right BR) to witness it. In 4 years of War Thundering I'm yet to be shot down immediately on spawning, and I guess my personal experience leads me to think its not really a problem. If it is, players need to know how to spot the situation before they spawn so they can time their entry into the game and know to go evasive straightaway - I'm happy to make a video on that, but only a tiny minority will watch it and sadly even less will learn from it as most of my viewers already seem to know what they're doing.

[Tigerspook 315]

12 minutes ago, long5hot said:

 

Just curious, if you disagree with my definition of spawn camping, how would you define it? I see lots of complaints, a lot of salted sour grapes here about how spawn campers are low-life cheats etc, but nobody seems to want to detail what camping actually IS in Arcade planes.  

 

 

Spawn camping is easy to define - it's when players exploit the spawning game mechanic by hovering above the red spawn in order to take advantage of the low energy state and general disorientation of planes entering the game.  If a player could be under attack before he's had time to assess the tactical situation, or if he is forced into maneuvers before his plane is up to speed, he's being spawn-camped.

 

Long5hot's example shows there is a gray area. The unskilled FW 190 pilot thinks he's being spawn camped.

 

I am sure that spawn-camper apologists will tell is how this isn't an exploit of a game mechanic, and how it's no different that BNZing over the middle of the map (yet... there they are, over the spawn....) and above all, how honorable they are.

 

The fact is, spawn campers are bullies and trolls. Then the OP wonders why none of his victims ask him for advice. Really?

[Tigerspook 315]

31 minutes ago, long5hot said:

 

Ok, understood. I personally haven't seen that myself yet, maybe haven't played enough games (or at the right BR) to witness it. In 4 years of War Thundering I'm yet to be shot down immediately on spawning,

 

It's a lower BR thing.  Campers know that inexperienced players won't know how to combat it, and in fact make the situation worse. They know that by the time they get set up, they'll be reaping the benefit of seeing the weaker planes in their victims' lineups. Think J2M or 109 F-4, with altitude, speed, position, and situational awareness advantages versus BR 2.3 planes such as a LaGG-3-8.

 

Despite my bleating about Spawn Camping it isn't all that common. Last night at BR 3.3 I saw some campers but they weren't skilled.  When the professionals show up it spoils players' games, however.

 

And regarding you never seeing it, that is hard to believe. When you see people with 20 kill games, you're almost certainly seeing spawn camping. If for no other reason that it generally requires a target-rich environment to have the time to get that many kills. And the place with that many targets is the spawn.

 

[RolandofSalem 280]

The crying about spawn camping begins again.

 

Learn to counter it or die...simple.

 

People need to climb secure altitude before it becomes an issue or they will stand the chance of being camped.

[HochgeborenKlown 1,276]

10 hours ago, Hohum33 said:

Instead of complaining about the players who spawn camp, why don't people complain about the game design that causes it? Baffling.

Better yet would be complain to gaijin about their "Up" button not working...Spawncampers all have functional Up buttons they use to cause their planes to climb...If someone's Up button is not working maybe they should file a bug report...

[HochgeborenKlown 1,276]

9 hours ago, Pat_McGherkin said:

No, it doesn't.

Agreed, gotten 11 kills twice in the event...Both times it was with a P-47 D-28 that I flew low and fast and just looped back and forth like a mobius strip...Both matches were airfield doms, single field Britain and 3 field Stalingrad...Never got above 5000 ft in either match as I recall...

 

[HochgeborenKlown 1,276]

9 hours ago, CloCloZ said:

 

You are right in stressing that spawn camping is a player's choice but in my opinion there is a real design issue too.

The spawn camping issue could be easily mitigated by Gaijin by changing the spawn mechanism, for example setting multiple random spawn points at different places and altitudes.
Just this would vastly reduce spawn camping because: 1) spawn campers would be no more sure to find their victims appearing on the single fixed expected point 2) allowing the random spawn point to be even higher than the highest enemy plane on the area would put spawn campers at the dreadful risk to be attacked from above.
I think that, doing that way, spawn camping in AF could become no more frequent than in GF (where is the norm just at the end of a battle against an already exterminated enemy team, because doing it before would be too risky).

But I'm convinced they'll never do that, since a lot of spawn campers support their "core business" (expert long-time paying players) and they would be damaged by such a change.

Why not just put an altitude limit on everyone of say 1000m, we can all fly in a covered dome that way...This is a combat flight sim, in RL countries lost and lose air superiority and get camped...Don't like campers, climb or dive out...Most of us wont waste out time following you down from 4000m to ground level...

[Hohum33 680]

10 hours ago, Pat_McGherkin said:

I play the game without any feeling that I need to spawn camp whatsoever. As do the VAST majority of players.

 

There are many things wrong with the game. All of them are completely beyond the control of the players, except spawn camping. The players that do it, do it because they choose to.

 

The game design may allow it but nothing in the game design causes it.

 

Having it as a viable option is what causes it. If Chess had a rule where you were allowed to knock enemy pieces off the board using spitballs, it wouldn't be the fault of the players stooping to do it.

7 hours ago, cashmeowsidehbd said:

Like I said, Gaijin makes a lot of money off of the spawn campers so it will never be addressed by them. 

 

I don't understand how you think these are linked.

[Hohum33 680]

11 minutes ago, HochgeborenKlown said:

Why not just put an altitude limit on everyone of say 1000m, we can all fly in a covered dome that way...This is a combat flight sim, in RL countries lost and lose air superiority and get camped...Don't like campers, climb or dive out...Most of us wont waste out time following you down from 4000m to ground level...

 

I can't make sense of what you're suggesting.

[HochgeborenKlown 1,276]

6 hours ago, long5hot said:

 

Just curious, if you disagree with my definition of spawn camping, how would you define it? I see lots of complaints, a lot of salted sour grapes here about how spawn campers are low-life cheats etc, but nobody seems to want to detail what camping actually IS in Arcade planes.  

 

For example, in ground-strike earlier today, I climbed with a squad-mate in Bf109 F-4s, secured control of bomber altitude then ran up a fair number of kills at around 4000-6000m altitude.  At the end of the game, a player on the red team was unstinting in his abuse, telling me I was a filthy spawn camper & he'd never watch another of my vids. So out of interest, I looked at how he played the game on the replay. In his first two planes, both Bf109s, he dived to the deck and turned circles in the mid-map furball until he died, while my friend and I feasted on unprotected bombers who tried to climb instead of diving. 

 

Then this guy spawns in a FW190, turned slowly to his right and began to climb at a high Halifax who'd been circling at around 6000m.  He'd been doing this for some 25 seconds, which is an eternity in WT arcade, when I swooped to attack. He saw me coming and had just enough energy to face me for the headon which I pulled up to evade. At this point, low on energy and obviously in danger, a wiser player would have dived to regain speed and/or escape the attack, but no. He dived just enough to recover from his near-stall then began doggedly climbing again as if trying to engage in a looping dogfight, making himself a very easy kill, 45 seconds after he spawned.

 

Then he appears in a Ju-87 D-5, pulls an Immelman and starts climbing again toward the Halifax.  We were 5km away when we saw him, but he was still chugging up in a straight line, doing 100km/h and firing at long range at the bomber, when my friend put him out of his misery.

 

So I ask. Was this "spawn camping"?  Have players become special snowflakes who need safe spaces in War Thunder now?  Do people not understand that when you enter a combat zone, you might actually be shot at and that mistakes will be punished? There have always been players who refuse to accept being shot down in good humour and look to blame & abuse the players who beat them.  To me, that's what most of this rage at "spawn camping" boils down to.

 

Lastly, I see some of you are trotting out the tired old chestnut of "players who do X pay money so Gaijin will never change the game to stop them". What a load of bollocks. That argument's been used for many things in the past, always without any evidence to back it up - its just another whinge to excuse people from actually making suggestions (instead of complaints) to Gaijin to improve the game. And suggestions _have_ been made, the best one being to give Arcade planes a choice of 3 spawn points. You could look on the map before spawning, see where the red dots are fewest and spawn there. That suggestion was put to Gaijin back in 2013 I believe, and at least once since then in a separate suggestions thread - but its gone nowhere. Not because "duh spawn campers are paying them" but because people probably couldn't be bothered to look at those threads and support them with positive comments. They'd rather whine here & quit battles instead.

Spawn camping defined: If you engage in combat with an enemy plane and you are within 10km of their spawn point and you have an altitude advantage of more than 6m when said combat begins, you are a filthy low life spawn camper who should be banned for cheating...

As a professional spawn camper I consider the fact that I am sitting in enemy bomber spawn area to be camping and I will do it every chance I get...When the enemy stops feeding me freshly spawned bombers I will move lower and camp the fighter spawn...I will camp alone or with a squad and it is the enemy teams fault because the let me behave like that...I have been camped before and as far as I recall, unless I notify my team our spawn is being camped no one ever bothers to let their TM's know about the campers...

Crying to gaijin about a a perceived in game problem that is easy to fix with a little effort is ridiculous...There are a multitude of ways to deal with campers, I worked with 2 Italian bombers in a P-47 to kill a camper, it just takes some effort, which it should since it takes no effort to surrender air superiority...

[HochgeborenKlown 1,276]

7 minutes ago, Hohum33 said:

 

I can't make sense of what you're suggesting.

people whining about being camped because they dont want to climb...build a giant dome over the battlefield that no one can climb above, make it 1000m tall and everyone spawns in at 975m...makes it hard to camp with only 25m space...

[Hohum33 680]

1 minute ago, HochgeborenKlown said:

people whining about being camped because they dont want to climb...build a giant dome over the battlefield that no one can climb above, make it 1000m tall and everyone spawns in at 975m...makes it hard to camp with only 25m space...

 

:rollseyes:

[Swearengen 653]

 

6 hours ago, Tigerspook said:

 

It's a lower BR thing. (...)And the place with that many targets is the spawn.

 

Nah. In lower BR the majority of targets are usually around the objectives. Most commonly somewhere around the middle of the map (furball)

[CloCloZ 375]

1 hour ago, Hohum33 said:

 

I can't make sense of what you're suggesting.

 

Because there is no sense in what he is suggesting.

He is just trying to say that spawn campers know how to fly and fight, whereas who disapproves spawn camping don't, furthermore employing the usual silly and faulty comparison with RL (for example, you could ask him where in RL enemy planes instantaneously appears at any time on the same known point in the sky, some thousand meters above the ground).

 

Deja vu, don't bother.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2017 by CloCloZ

[VaperTrail 343]

2 hours ago, RolandofSalem said:

The crying about spawn camping begins again.

 

Learn to counter it or die...simple.

 

People need to climb secure altitude before it becomes an issue or they will stand the chance of being camped.

 

This is not about good players being Spawn Camped, its about newbies that many don't even know how to turn being smashed when they have no chance and don't know what to do, if you cant see the learning curve I don't know what to say, 100 level players using a game mechanic advantage over rank beginners is not fair and sporting play.

 

Like I said if these Spawn Campers want to show how good they are then circle below the Spawn and see if they can get 20 kills, not gunna happen because they want an advantage not a even game or a disadvantage, they want the jump and all advantage over a newbie.

 

 

 

 

[Hohum33 680]

30 minutes ago, VaperTrail said:

 

This is not about good players being Spawn Camped, its about newbies that many don't even know how to turn being smashed when they have no chance and don't know what to do, if you cant see the learning curve I don't know what to say, 100 level players using a game mechanic advantage over rank beginners is not fair and sporting play.

 

Like I said if these Spawn Campers want to show how good they are then circle below the Spawn and see if they can get 20 kills, not gunna happen because they want an advantage not a even game or a disadvantage, they want the jump and all advantage over a newbie.

 

 

 

 

 

Appealing to their better nature doesn't work.

Adjusting the game to discourage / remove it, by definition, does.

 

I have no problem with rewarding players who dominate from higher altitude, that was part of aerial warfare. Popping into existence below them, I do have a problem with.

 

Yes, you can go evasive, dive away, and side climb (or just go and low level furball [yawn]) - but that's just reacting to an unnatural situation forced by the game. 

 

 

[RolandofSalem 280]

29 minutes ago, VaperTrail said:

 

This is not about good players being Spawn Camped, its about newbies that many don't even know how to turn being smashed when they have no chance and don't know what to do, if you cant see the learning curve I don't know what to say, 100 level players using a game mechanic advantage over rank beginners is not fair and sporting play.

 

Like I said if these Spawn Campers want to show how good they are then circle below the Spawn and see if they can get 20 kills, not gunna happen because they want an advantage not a even game or a disadvantage, they want the jump and all advantage over a newbie.

 

 

 

 

 

Newbies gotta learn as well...what does not kill you makes you stronger. We can't coddle people and expect them to get better.

 

Oh and that fair or sporting crap is for the weak...I don't want to perpetuate weakness.

 

I'm just a casual player with average skills and I can cope with spawn campers...so if I can anyone can if given the time to learn, but they must learn.

[GregKjr 520]

17 minutes ago, VaperTrail said:

 

This is not about good players being Spawn Camped, its about newbies that many don't even know how to turn being smashed when they have no chance and don't know what to do, if you cant see the learning curve I don't know what to say, 100 level players using a game mechanic advantage over rank beginners is not fair and sporting play.

 

Like I said if these Spawn Campers want to show how good they are then circle below the Spawn and see if they can get 20 kills, not gunna happen because they want an advantage not a even game or a disadvantage, they want the jump and all advantage over a newbie.

 

 

 

 

 

who are these "rank beginners" you are referring to?  I never see any one "spawn camping" in biplane only matches ..... It just takes to long to fly over to the opfor spawn..

 

so the question then is... at what point is the response of l2p, get good, or grow up appropriate?  When everyone is level 100... that just don't seem right to me ....

If any thing I think guys getting spawn camped most likely need to hear it sooner ... like right when thy start the game so thy know from the start thy need to secure their spawn them selves.

 

and why should any one have a safe spawn area .. do thy want some place to hide?

after all it's not like we are talking about late joiners (and btw you can turn that off) so we all start at the same time... no one starts spawn camping..

 

but if guys would rather have them selves a cry about it instead of learning to deal with it ... what ever i'm not going to stop you.

 

 

now if guys want to make a suggestion to give them selves a better chance to deal with spawn camping that is a whole different matter... you might need to settle down on the hyperbole first before any one will take you serious.

[Hohum33 680]

1 minute ago, RolandofSalem said:

 

Newbies gotta learn as well...what does not kill you makes you stronger. We can't coddle people and expect them to get better.

 

Oh and that fair or sporting crap is for the weak...I don't want to perpetuate weakness.

 

I'm just a casual player with average skills and I can cope with spawn campers...so if I can anyone can if given the time to learn, but they must learn.

 

You're such a hunk.

 

I don't much care about whether it's fair or not. I care about bad game mechanics

 

I'll BnZ the unwary all day long, but killing aircraft that have little choice but pop into existence below me - we might as well be playing a game with teleporters. 

 

There are some pretty easy solutions. Add another spawn another 10+ km back. Choose it if the closer one is camped.

[Hohum33 680]

4 minutes ago, GregKjr said:

 

who are these "rank beginners" you are referring to?  I never see any one "spawn camping" in biplane only matches ..... It just takes to long to fly over to the opfor spawn..

 

so the question then is... at what point is the response of l2p, get good, or grow up appropriate?  When everyone is level 100... that just don't seem right to me ....

If any thing I think guys getting spawn camped most likely need to hear it sooner ... like right when thy start the game so thy know from the start thy need to secure their spawn them selves.

 

and why should any one have a safe spawn area .. do thy want some place to hide?

after all it's not like we are talking about late joiners (and btw you can turn that off) so we all start at the same time... no one starts spawn camping..

 

but if guys would rather have them selves a cry about it instead of learning to deal with it ... what ever i'm not going to stop you.

 

 

now if guys want to make a suggestion to give them selves a better chance to deal with spawn camping that is a whole different matter... you might need to settle down on the hyperbole first before any one will take you serious.

 

Characterising people who disagree with you as "crying" is pathetic - and just the kind of hyperbole you say that reduces credibility only one sentence later.

 

I know how to deal with spawn campers. However, I hardly ever have to deal with it since I'm usually the one at high altitude, and I rarely lose my first aircraft. So, I'm not "crying" about it. I'm pointing out that it's ridiculous, artificial, and bad for the game, and that it is easily fixed in a way that allows people who bother to dominate high altitude still gain benefit from doing so.

 

 

[RolandofSalem 280]

1 minute ago, Hohum33 said:

 

You're such a hunk.

 

I don't know what that means.

 

1 minute ago, Hohum33 said:

 

I don't much care about whether it's fair or not. I care about bad game mechanics

 

It does no good to care...won't change anything.

 

1 minute ago, Hohum33 said:

 

I'll BnZ the unwary all day long, but killing aircraft that have little choice but pop into existence below me - we might as well be playing a game with teleporters. 

 

They have the same chance as any other BnZ victim...better as they have spawn protection.

 

1 minute ago, Hohum33 said:

 

There are some pretty easy solutions. Add another spawn another 10+ km back. Choose it if the closer one is camped.

 

Whatever they do will be complained about as well...just deal with it like everything else.

[Hohum33 680]

Just now, RolandofSalem said:

 

I don't know what that means.

 

 

It does no good to care...won't change anything.

 

 

They have the same chance as any other BnZ victim...better as they have spawn protection.

 

 

Whatever they do will be complained about as well...just deal with it like everything else.

 

There is no spawn protection in aircraft. You clearly don't know what you're talking about. You have no credibility.

[GregKjr 520]

8 minutes ago, Hohum33 said:

 

Characterising people who disagree with you as "crying" is pathetic - and just the kind of hyperbole you say that reduces credibility only one sentence later.

 

I know how to deal with spawn campers. However, I hardly ever have to deal with it since I'm usually the one at high altitude, and I rarely lose my first aircraft. So, I'm not "crying" about it. I'm pointing out that it's ridiculous, artificial, and bad for the game, and that it is easily fixed in a way that allows people who bother to dominate high altitude still gain benefit from doing so.

 

 

so I would tend to agree with you about "Characterising people who disagree with you as "crying" is pathetic - and just the kind of hyperbole you say that reduces credibility only one sentence later."

 

 

except this is a thing...

17 hours ago, VaperTrail said:

So what your really saying GregKjr is that you play spawn camp style ?

 

In my game I mentioned, by the time Id seen what was going on over my spawn I was too far away to go back and try to do something, I thought if I get killed I will have a go at them when I spawn.

 

Love your choice of words like abandonment of my team, it nearly brought a tear to my eye as I thought off my poor team mates striving to learn and have a little fun only to get savaged by a team of 100 players, I guessed these ones must have been the real good 100 players and not the ordinary 100 players you speak of by the way they went through them, even though 100 level does not mean youre an ace I gotta say I cant  remember seeing a 100 player that was not infinitely better than a 10 level player, especially when the 100 player has ALL the advantages.

 

You will never convince me that Spawn Camping in War Thunder is an honorable way to play.

 

maybe thy are crying from laughter?

[Pat_McGherkin 2,074]

30 minutes ago, GregKjr said:

 

who are these "rank beginners" you are referring to?  I never see any one "spawn camping" in biplane only matches ..... It just takes to long to fly over to the opfor spawn..

Given that you won't get into a 'biplane only game' unless you start a new account this is close as you'll get...

 

(I was starting out my Italian tree & matchmaker, in all its wisdom, decided to throw in a down-tiered squad of 4 that all had a down-tiered line-up. Many of the 'victims' had 1.3 and 1.0 aircraft - it didn't stop anyone)

[GregKjr 520]

3 minutes ago, Pat_McGherkin said:

Given that you won't get into a 'biplane only game' unless you start a new account this is close as you'll get...

 

so you are telling me new players don't have to deal with level 100 players .... good to know thanks for the info