Polish Ground Forces Tech Tree

[AftiksPL 197]

3 hours ago, RazNaRok said:

Such compromises will be required because in such a significantly mixed tree, several vehicles will solicit for each of places, potentially occupy a place

which we could use for one or more interesting vehicles of the Polish armed forces,

Visegrad tree complements very well. Where one nation does not have its own vehicles, another has them, so you can avoid a large number of copy  paste. Only places where Polish vehicles could fight for a place with other machines is Air Rank 1 and Ground Rank 6. In other places  there are no Polish vehicles that can be added (rank 2 and 3 in ground and 3-4 in air) or there is enough space to add them. I would prefer one big tree with full navy and helicopter trees than 3 small ones.

Edited January 29, 2021 by AftiksPL

[GrumpyStranger 723]

On 29/01/2021 at 18:28, AftiksPL said:

full navy

I'm sorry, what? With Hungary peaking at Szvent Istvan, the tree will not be able to field a full naval complement, which means this goes one of two ways, either the tree ends around BR 6.0-ish with Austro-Hungarian cruisers and pre-dreadnoughts, or there is none at all, which means that about a third of Poland's actual historical contribution to the game just evaporated.

[HufnagelPista 135]

 

On 29/01/2021 at 18:28, AftiksPL said:

Only places where Polish vehicles could fight for a place with other machines is Air Rank 1 and Ground Rank 6.

I dont think, there should be any fighting for places. Just look at the soviet tree, there is a lot of 9.3, 9.7, and soon 10.3 tank.
With early polish and czech T-72 variants, u can fill the 9.3, and with the later ones, the 9.7, 10.0 lineups. As far as I know, this tanks are upgraded and modified T-72M variants, And the M-s had worse armor than the T-72A. So, I dont think they should be as high as 10.3.
For 10.0+ Gaijin can add 3 leo2, maybe the lynx with spike ATGM. I dont know if anyone of them have any 8x8 with high caliber gun in service, but a fast cart with a high pen dart would be nice

[NeXeS-PL@psn 270]

At the outbreak of the defensive war in 1939, there were a total of 987 examples of various types of combat vehicles in the Polish Army.  These include a total of 312 light tanks (132 7TP, 102 Renault FT, 50 Renault R-35 and 38 Vickers E), 574 reconnaissance tanks (approx. 294 TK-3 and 280 TKS) and 101 armored cars (90 wz. 34 and  11 wz. 29 Ursus).  Thus, Poland was in 7th place in terms of the number of armored equipment in the world.  Before the Second Polish Republic, only the USSR with approx. 10 thousand, Germany with approx. 3.5 thousand, France with approx. 3.3 thousand, Japan with approx. 1.2 thousand, Great Britain with approx.  , 15 thousand  and Italy with approx. 1 thousand  copies of combat vehicles.

 

Best regards to the troll team

Edited February 5, 2021 by NeXeS-PL@psn

[RazNaRok 616]

On 05/02/2021 at 11:34, NeXeS-PL@psn said:

Best regards to the troll team

 

Just throw a stone if you're not guilty yourself...

Unless the similarity in the posts of Mateusz_Nowak12 and Yours is completely unintentional and accidental.

 

Going back to the poor quality conglomerate of Wikipedia content and the work of Michał Derela, being thrown into the google translator.

Are you really so naive as to think that the quoted misrepresented values in any way qualify the Polish nation to have an independent technology tree?

 

• 102 Renault FT - Actually it was 174, but don't U even dare to think about it as the tech tree candidate...
• 50 Renault R-35 - Familiarize Yourself better with the history of Polish purchases in France. In April 1939 was finally decided to buy a hundred R35 tanks as an emergency measure. The first shipment of fifty arrived in Poland in July 1939, along with three Hotchkiss H35 tanks bought for testing. The second shipment of R35s did not reach Poland prior to the outbreak of World War II. These were diverted by the French to Syria. Nevertheless, it doesn't matter as the Polish R35 and H35 tanks were armed only with an obsolete 37 mm SA 18 L/21 Puteaux gun useful only in fighting with infantry troops. These also would be clones, as there already are similar or same vehicles in the French tree.
• 38 Vickers E - Guess what... UK tech tree doesn't have this vehicle till this day, How do You think Why ? Could it be, that it is seen by devs as completely useless ?
• 132 7TP - At the best, only the late-series tanks qualify as a weak reserve vehicle with poor BR and heavily limited MM...

 

• 294 TK-3 and 280 TKS - At the best, only the TK-S with a 20mm cannon qualify as a weak reserve vehicle with poor BR and heavily limited MM. Let's face it, the Italians got a similar vehicle only as a placeholder because the creators of the tree could not find anything better for it's role in the TD branch.

 

• 90 wz. 34 and  11 wz. 29 Ursus - Where did You forget the half tracked PZInż and wz.28 ?? Nevertheless it doesn't matter as the polish so called armored cars with their weak armor and machine guns (with exception of few wz.29 armed with an obsolete 37 mm SA 18 L/21 Puteaux gun), were useful only in scouting and fighting with infantry troops. Again, one could take for example few vehicles from a Italian or even a German tree. But one have to remember that those vehicles are better armored and armed or either bury their shortcomings by the speed or turning radius.

 

Thus, among the cited omnipotent vehicles from September 39, which put Polish technology in the honorable seventh place of the world's armed forces ...

We could qualify at most two vehicles ... a very weak two.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by RazNaRok

[_IvalinA_ 88]

On 05/02/2021 at 11:34, NeXeS-PL@psn said:

At the outbreak of the defensive war in 1939, there were a total of 987 examples of various types of combat vehicles in the Polish Army.  ...

 

Argumentation level: the drowning man grabs the razor

 

 

[GrumpyStranger 723]

On 05/02/2021 at 11:34, NeXeS-PL@psn said:

At the outbreak of the defensive war in 1939, there were a total of 987 examples of various types of combat vehicles in the Polish Army.  These include a total of 312 light tanks (132 7TP, 102 Renault FT, 50 Renault R-35 and 38 Vickers E), 574 reconnaissance tanks (approx. 294 TK-3 and 280 TKS)
[...]
Italy with approx. 1 thousand  copies of combat vehicles

By the end of 38, Italy had produced approximatly 2.500 CV33 and CV35s, something you apparently did not factor in despite including various TK variants (and *FT* tanks, really?) in the polish total, something that made me wonder what other values you misrepresented...

 

Oh yeah, the Japanese, between the Type 92, Type 94 and Type 97 had 1600-odd tankettes alone. That makes them number one and us number eigth, right? And if only the US didn't have the sense to scrap all those WW1 tanks, maybe they'd have a more respectable armored force in 1940.

 

Now, if you could drop this pointless posturing and compare vehicles that were actually effective tanks in 1939, we're outpaced by the Czechoslovakia (by a factor of 2), and dangerously close to being overtaken by Romania, with their 126 R2s, 20 R35s and 180 on the way.
Or, you know, you can keep imagining that all those FTs, TKs and Vickers' tanks made Poland a 7th biggest armored powerhouse on a world scale. Sure.

[_IvalinA_ 88]

On 05/02/2021 at 11:34, NeXeS-PL@psn said:

102 Renault FT

 

And where You get that quota? The famous polish military movie of the seventies?

 

Do you know anything about Gen. Haller's Army and the 1st Tank Regiment?

Just the 1st Tank Regiment alone, was equipped with 120 tanks FT-17: 75 armed with a 37mm gun Puteaux SA-18 L/21, and 45 armed with a 8mm Hotchkiss Mle.14 MG

and it was not the only Polish formation armed with this type of tank...

 

A total number of the Polish FT-17s is not clear, in the thirties the Polish Army had:
- 112 light tanks Renault FT-17 (of Serial no.: 1001-1112)
- 27 training tanks Renault FT-17 CWS (of Serial no.: 3001-3027)
This give us 139 tanks in total !

This total quota is even bigger if we count other Renault type tanks being in polish duty:   
- 6 radio tanks Renault TSF (Serial no.: 2001-2006)
- 5 tanks Renault M26/27
- 24 tanks Renault NC-27 (in fact, 1 tank, the rest were probably the regular FT-17's)
This makes us 174 tanks in total !

 

Also let's not forget about the prototype vehicles such as Renault M "HANUŚ", Renault wz.32 with the Vicker's E chassis, the fumigator tank

and other with a rebuilt chassis using small links tracks of engineer Kardaszewicz...

 

Do You still think that Poland was the seventh largest armoured power of those times?

 

On 05/02/2021 at 11:34, NeXeS-PL@psn said:

Thus, Poland was in 7th place in terms of the number of armored equipment in the world.

 

Honestly speaking... In June 1919 the 1st Tank Regiment, along with Gen. Haller's Army had returned to Poland, along with all their equipment.

Thanks to this, Poland became the fourth biggest armoured power in the world at that time...

Edited February 6, 2021 by _IvalinA_

[GrumpyStranger 723]

10 hours ago, _IvalinA_ said:

Also let's not forget about the prototype vehicles such as Renault M "HANUŚ", Renault wz.32 with the Vicker's E chassis, the fumigator tank

and other with a rebuilt chassis using small links tracks of engineer Kardaszewicz...

Actually, maybe the less is said about those the better. Plus, each one was a conversion of an existing FT (or Kegresse in the wz. 32 case, ), so those didn't actually increase the number of available tanks, while wasting precious development funds and time...

[RazNaRok 616]

PZInż. 20/25TP (the so called "Habich" tank)

 

The design of the first universal Polish go tank was created at the PZinż Studies Office. around 1939. Its main designer was Eng. Edward Habich, while the diesel engine was to be designed

especially for this vehicle by Eng. Jan Werner.

 

The first concept was created on the internal initiative of PZinż, without the approval of MSWojsk.

This was due to the fear that the designed 14 TP tank even before it goes into production may not meet the requirements of the changed battlefield. Before starting work, Eng. Habich analyzed all available materials on the use of armored vehicles in combat - from World War I to the civil war in Spain. Based on this, he determined that about 80% of all hits took place in the frontal hull armor and in the turret frontal and side armor. He also determined that in combat conditions, high speed will be used sporadically, so there is no need to screw parameters in this respect. A characteristic feature of the new vehicle was its low side silhouette, fairly wide hull and a large, but not too high, turret. According to the designer, this type of

solution reduced the probability of getting hit with a projectile.

 

Developed by. Eng. Habich's concept was presented to the representatives of the Armored Weapons Command and BBTBr.Panc. Initially, it was accepted with some reserve, but after explanations from the constructor, it was finally accepted. It was agreed that the new vehicle will weigh 20-25 tons, will be equipped with a 300 HP diesel engine, the maximum speed on a paved road will be around 40 kph, and will be armed with an 47 mm anti-tank gun with option to exchanging it for 60mm gun and 3 machine guns. The frontal armor was to be 60 mm thick and the side armor 40 mm thick. The estimated number of the crew was 5-7 soldiers. After receiving the guidelines, Eng. Habich started designing a new tank.

 

The hull, quite wide, was to be made entirely of welded, surface-cemented armor plates with a strength exceeding 400 kg/cm 2. It was assumed that the side plates would be all vertical so as not to reduce the interior of the vehicle unnecessarily. The front end solution was to be similar to that of the 7TP (according to an earlier conversation) or 4TP (according to a later conversation). The front upper fuselage plate was to be tilted forward as in the 7TP. It was intended to weld a plate to this plate at an angle of 45°, in which they were to be placed; on the left side a driver's seat with an appropriate visor and a reversible periscope Gundlach, and on the right side a machine gun position mounted in a spherical yoke. The rear of the fuselage has not been

settled firmly. This matter was planned to be resolved after the construction of a wooden model, but the  preferred solution was used in 4TP.

 

It was assumed that the tower would be large, flat, for 3 people. Initially, it was to be made of welded armor plates with 6 sides and a conical shape. According to Eng. Habich: at a later date, it was intended to improve the tower and use a cast one. It was then to have a semi-spherical shape. It was planned to equip the tower with a commander's turret and a second, additional

hatch. The commander was to have a reversible periscope.

 

The suspension was planned on torsion bars, very flexible, with the use of flat springs.

According to Eng. Habich, this method of suspension did not increase the height of the hull.

 

The running gear consisted of 3 double bogies with solid wheels with a diameter of 60-70 cm. The drive wheel was to be at the front and the idler at the rear. The caterpillars were to be wide with steel links, guaranteeing a unit pressure on the ground of 0.6 kg/cm2, supported from above by 4 rollers.

 

Initially, according to the guidelines, it was planned that the engine (compression ignition) would have a power of 300 HP. To resolve this issue, Eng Habich met with Eng. Jan Werner. Jan was to design the engine for the specific surface at his disposal. The design of the drive block was to be compact but quite wide. According to Ing. Jan Werner, it is possible to get 350-400 hp. It is worth noting that the possibility of using a 400 HP carburetor engine in a V8 or Vl2 system was also considered. This engine was intended as a backup power unit in case of difficulties or insufficient power of the diesel engine.

 

The steering was to be done with the use of side clutches.

 

As a reinforcement, an armored gun was initially planned. 47 mm cal. by eng. Wacław Stetkiewicz. It was characterized by a very long barrel, giving the initial velocity of the projectile over 900 m/s. Fearing that the 47mm gun might turn out to be too weak in the future, it was already planned to be replaced with a 60mm gun. However, since a gun with this caliber was not used by the Polish Army, and there was no plan to even work on this type of construction - caliber, there had to be another solution found. In the spring of 1939, Eng. Tadeusz Tański proposed using  75mm French AA guns for this purpose wz. 22/24. Eng. Tański decided that these cannons would not be suitable for fighting modern and fast

enemy aircraft, while their characteristics and dimensions should fully satisfy the military's expectations of the new tank. However, since there were only 14 of these guns in the Polish Army's equipment, and the possibility of obtaining more of them from France was not hopeful, it was planned to ultimately equip the vehicle with a modified 75 mm cannon by Starachowice. The gun was to have a shortened barrel and shortened hard resistance revolvers. However, the prototype finally received the wz. 22/24 due to the lack of the Starachowice construction, which has not been developed yet. The task of adapting this gun to the tank turret was given to Eng. Tadeusz Tański. At the same time, as this gun did not have any anti-tank ammunition,requested

a certain number of such shells were. In addition, the tank was to receive 3 C-type air-cooled machine guns. The first of them, probably initially the C4 model, and eventually the C5 with a plate magazine, was to be placed on the driver's right side, installed in a spherical yoke. The second, probably a C4 model, was planned to be placed in the turret, coupled to the gun on its right side. The third, the C5, as an anti-aircraft aircraft, was to be mounted on a special turntable on the commander's turret.

 

The armor varied in thickness. The thickness of its arrangement was the result of the analysis of hits by armored vehicles in previous conflicts.

 

Ultimately, the crew was to consist of 5 people:

driver, gunner, gunner, loader and commander.

 

As additional equipment, the use of reversible periscopes of Cpt. Eng. Rudolf Gundlach and a strong radio station.

 

Work on the new tank was carried out very intensively. To solve the problems arising during design, Eng. Habich ordered a rather unusual solution - almost every approved project was recreated using wooden mock-ups reflecting the relevant parts of the vehicle. The greatest emphasis was then put by Eng. Habich to get as low as possible height of the vehicle. Finally, just before the outbreak of the war, a complete wooden mock-up was built, which clearly

showed that the total height was lower than the T-34. All design problems at this stage were also resolved. This made it possible to start work on the implementation of construction drawings. According to Ing. Habich, the tank received high priority - the prototype was to be ready for trials in the fall of 1940.

 

Specifications:

• Weight in full combat readiness - 20,000 ~ 25,000 kg.

• Engine - diesel engine with a power of 350 ~ 400 KM.

• Maximum speed on the road - approx. 45 kph.

• Armament - initially an anti-tank gun. 47 mm wz. 39, later a 75mm gun.

• 3 type C air cooled machine guns.

• Armor thickness - 20-60 mm.

• Crew - 5 people.

 

A very liberal ‘what-if’ reconstruction of the PZInż. 20/25TP tank based on the account of Eng. Edward Habich written by Piotr Zarzycki.

The drawings are  an artistic interpretation of the PZInż. 20/25TP made by Grzegorz "GrumpyStranger" Witkiewicz.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Based on: Wielki Leksykon Uzbrojenia - Wrzesień 1939. Tom 151. Prototypy broni Pancernej.
Published with unchanged content with the consent of the author of the study.
All rights reserved Piotr Zarzycki

 

Proper translation from Polish to English done in cooperation with Polish Community Co-Ordinator performed by Dymitr Osiński

To whom I would like to hereby thank for the help.

Edited April 7, 2021 by RazNaRok

[NeXeS-PL@psn 270]

17 minutes ago, RazNaRok said:

PZInż. 20 / 25TP (tzw. Czołg "Habich")

What? Wooden tank model? Have you consulted it with Mateusz Nowak?

 

 

[_IvalinA_ 88]

  

39 minutes ago, NeXeS-PL@psn said:

Have you consulted it with Mateusz Nowak?

 

 

If we had anything to consult with Mateusz Nowak we definitively will speak with You...

Well, in any case If we will have to have any business with any of Your both personalities, we will send the mare for an interview... as was said by sergeant major of cavalry Kalita.

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by _IvalinA_

[NeXeS-PL@psn 270]

What the Leopard 2PL does with the German flag in the hangar on the test server? 

[_IvalinA_ 88]

6 hours ago, NeXeS-PL@psn said:

What the Leopard 2PL does with the German flag in the hangar on the test server?

 

What? German technology demonstrator, prototype and trail bath of tanks? Have you consulted it with Mateusz Nowak?

 

Probably does Same as did the ORP Garland with five o' clock flag...

Moreover, there not much of the Polishness here, Mr. Patriot ... The 2PL technology and the prototype as well were developed by a German consortium Rheinmetall. The contract assumed that the German company would be responsible for: developing the tank modernization project, preparing the necessary technical documentation, making a prototype of the 2PL tank aswell the trial bath of tanks (five of which includes the process of training Polish specialists and technology transfer to Poland), providing ZM Bumar-Łabędy with the necessary technical support in starting production of serial vechicles also providing necessary tools and transferring know-how technology. During the Eurosatory 2018 trade fair, representatives of Rheinmetall announced the completion of factory tests of the Leopard 2PL prototype tank.

Edited February 21, 2021 by _IvalinA_

[RazNaRok 616]

7 hours ago, NeXeS-PL@psn said:

What the Leopard 2PL does with the German flag in the hangar on the test server?

 

Keyword is: Dev Server...

 

Data visible in dev server are not set in stone and are subject to change (like everything in DEV).

Besides, it is a German technology demonstrator from the Eurosatory 2018 fair. It is equally as Polish as Polish was the Product S1 from ZM Bumar-Łabędy in the fifties...

Edited February 21, 2021 by RazNaRok

[Clangokkuner 253]

Unfortunately this screams like "let's shoehorn a whole tree for a couple modern tanks" to me. Frankly after the Chinese/Italian tree copy paste nonsense I'm really not all that enthusiastic about a nation that's comprised entirely of captured/lend lease tanks from 1.0 to at least 7.7.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Clangokkuner

[AftiksPL 197]

21 minutes ago, Clangokkuner said:

captured/lend lease tanks from 1.0 to at least 7.7

If they were to use unique foreign machines (such as Staghound, Sexton, Covenanter, Valenitne V, Centaur ...) and modified others, copy paste may be limited to 3.0-6.0. But this is still unlikely to happen after what Gajin did to the Chinese Tree (completely ignoring their ranks 1-4 unique machines). So now I prefer the idea of the Visegrad technology tree much more.

[Clangokkuner 253]

Even then, the "unique" foreign machines are basically fundamentally the same as the ones in existing tech trees, I'd frankly prefer if the ones that people want (i.e. modern tanks) are just integrated into a larger tree like the USSR to avoid adding another small country with insane repair costs compared to the original ones.

[AftiksPL 197]

12 minutes ago, Clangokkuner said:

Even then, the "unique" foreign machines are basically fundamentally the same as the ones in existing tech trees, I'd frankly prefer if the ones that people want (i.e. modern tanks) are just integrated into a larger tree like the USSR to avoid adding another small country with insane repair costs compared to the original ones.

Currently adding "unique" machines like M4A4 and M3A3, I agree, it's another copy paste. However, the Covenanter, Sexton, Staghound and a few others would be entirely new. But even if they added them to the Polish tree, the home country will surely receive them. I also don't like the idea of adding Polish machines to the USSR. I would rather they would connect Poland together with other smaller nations in a similar situation to Poland, like Hungary and Czechoslovakia (idea of Visegrad tech tree)

[Bagniewski 36]

So since they are adding a leopard 2pl as a squadron vehicle, I don't see a chance for an independent Polish tree. Only chance is a subtree in the line of Russian vehicles with all the meridy, skoty, wilki and twarde..

Edited February 23, 2021 by Bagniewski

[HufnagelPista 135]

44 minutes ago, Bagniewski said:

So since they are adding a leopard 2pl as a squadron vehicle, I don't see a chance for an independent Polish tree. Only chance is a subtree in the line of Russian vehicles with all the meridy of skoty, wilki and twarde..

Russia have enough, and far more than enough vehicles without Polish tanks. 

With the announcement of the leo2pl, I think all hope lost for a Polish, Czechoslovak, Hungarian, or the V4 TT.

Germany had no f...... need for that tank......

 

[RazNaRok 616]

5 hours ago, Bagniewski said:

So since they are adding a leopard 2pl as a squadron vehicle, I don't see a chance for an independent Polish tree. ...

 

Still nothing is lost yet, there is still a small chance that it will be a German vehicle.

It should be remembered that the technology demonstrator from Eurosatory 2018 fair and the tanks of the first production batch come straight from the German Rheinmetall...

It all depends now on which specific version the developers decide to add whether it will be the prototype from the Eurosatory 2018 fair or the tanks of the ZM Bumar-Łabędy production series.

Edited February 23, 2021 by RazNaRok

[Monke6000@live 141]

idk if im late to this idea but have you considered condensing the tree to a single line (with some extra spaas or tds like sa)and putting it into ussr similar to how sa was recently implemented?(maybe we could have zero copy pasta then)

[PlanyKaanere 722]

On 23/02/2021 at 11:35, HufnagelPista said:

With the announcement of the leo2pl, I think all hope lost for a Polish, Czechoslovak, Hungarian, or the V4 TT.

Germany had no f...... need for that tank......

 

All four nations added after the Open Beta Test have had some of their vehicles added to other trees before becomming an standalone nation. Italy was part of the German research tree, France had the D.520 as a British event vehicle, China the Type 62 and 63 in the USSR and Sweden the premium Strv.81 in the British tree. The Leopard 2PL doesn't disprove a Polish/V4 tree.

[Bagniewski 36]

1 minute ago, PlanyKaanere said:

 

All four nations added after the Open Beta Test have had some of their vehicles added to other trees before becomming an standalone nation. Italy was part of the German research tree, France had the D.520 as a British event vehicle, China the Type 62 and 63 in the USSR and Sweden the premium Strv.81 in the British tree. The Leopard 2PL doesn't disprove a Polish/V4 tree.

The Main problem is that leopard 2pl is Polish top tier.