[Feedback] Economy Revision - Our Plan in Detail

[_retro__gamer_ 400]

Nice changes overall. Maybe a good reason to buy premium again.

 

I miss however some mention to:

- when RP reductions are planned to be applied for high ranking tanks (V and above)

- reductions for total module RP in high ranking vehicles (V and above)

 

Also I'd like to finally have some way to "hide" from the trees the fully spaded vehicles (or to highlight non spaded ones) so I can clearly see what I miss to spade. C'mon, should be easy to implement.

[Toastfrenzy 22]

Gaijin, thanks for taking the time to work though all of the suggestions and producing a raft of, how I see it, positive changes to implement. Crowd pleasers for sure!

 

I did think of something, but too late for the survey.

Is there much worth in a new battle reward, similar to the vehical\country specific backups & the universal backups that are often rewarded out and available in the store?

 

Free repair tokens that can be, like per vehical or non specific to use for the "free" repair of vehicals.

 

I know plenty wait for the free repair over time, as I do, for their chosen vehical. It would encourage me to stay on line a bit longer I feel. Who doesn't like something else for free?

[杂鱼 一群杂鱼捏 71]

There are a large number of bot behavior players in navy, air and ground battle.

Especially in navy battle, most of the players are automatic scripts. there are no more than 4 human players in one battle on average.

They abusing game mechanics using automatic scripts, use software that automates the game process twenty-four seven. 

 

Some of them have already played tens of thousands battles using  automatic scripts but their accounts still alive.

Why not ban those bot accounts?

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by ___Fatum___

[AymairY 41]

There will still a lot to do after that, some people already tell it on previous post, but guys, that is a very good roadmap and give me really hope for the game, keep going on this way !

[vascolopes 382]

Overall good changes and the buff to the premium to incentive people to buy it are good.

 

However on a negative note, dumbing down maps even more will make the game more counter thunder and rewards braindead plays instead of map knowleage and creative thinking. I hope this will be reversed.

Edited June 14, 2023 by vascolopes

[dE3EPTI7P 1]

Hello,

 

I play only Sim battle both in tanks and aircraft.

 

Aircraft in air sim are fine. Enduring confrontation or whatever it is you have called it. 

 

Tank sim really suffers though from aircraft dominating the game. Sometimes I have been blown up in spawn three times in a row by an aircraft and that is no fun at all and a waste of time and often I then quit and play something else or do something else. I do not play tank sim to play against aircraft.

 

It would be really nice if aircraft of all types were removed from tank sim or at least drastically reduced so that maybe one side could have one aircraft up at a time.

 

How it is at the moment is really bad. The same comments probably apply to arcade and realistic tanks as well.

 

Artillery could be drastically reduced as well.

 

Thanks.

 

Alan

[MasterBLB 3,764]

16 hours ago, Stona said:

Rewarding Your Skill part

Well, it'd be enough to get rid off that diminishing returns crap for lions and RP for consecutive actions - players whose are consistently able to shot down 15+ enemy planes without losing their own don't need any extra bonuses, just not being punished for their skill.

[FKrisz 13]

I forget two more suggestion:

-Make air spawn in naval battles possible at start. The most of the ships has excellent defense against aircraft, if not, they need to be together to defend each other. So it would make naval battles much more dynamic and force to work together.

-In ground battles make some spawn defense zone a little longer protection. It happens too much that somebody just spawn camp, and some map are really good for that at the start, so the freshly spawned cant leave the area fast enough. Or maybe as in world war, just add ai defenses (anti tanks boys) around the spawn zones, that those campers need to work for the spawn kills...

[RogueStarONE@live 223]

17 hours ago, Lord_Prism said:

Well now you can grind helis in the ground tree

Thanks NO THANKS…

[Metrallaroja 1,326]

17 hours ago, Stona said:

Rewarding Your Skill

A topic we have talked about a lot within our team and recently in our Q&A as well, is finding a way to sufficiently reward players for outstanding performance in battles.

The first initial problem is working out what constitutes an ‘outstanding performance’, as this kind of metric is often relative to each individual player. Secondly, it is not always the case that a high position on the scoreboard reflects clear superiority over the enemy team. Like us, most players like the PvP nature of War Thunder, so we have decided to create some additional RP bonuses based on how many enemy vehicles a player destroys. The size of the bonus and the number of kills required to earn it will depend on the game mode and the rank of the vehicles used - we’ll tell you all about the specifics once the mechanic is introduced into the game.

But as a preliminary example, where these numbers are approximate and are subject to change, we’ll structure the bonus like this - In Tank Arcade Battles while using rank III vehicles:

- Level I : For destroying 3 enemies you’ll receive a 15% RP bonus

- Level II: For destroying 6 enemies you’ll receive a 30% RP bonus

- Level III: For destroying 9 enemies you’ll receive a 50% RP bonus

So, if you destroy 3-5 enemies, you’ve not let your team down and will receive a Level I Skill bonus. If you destroy 6-8 enemies, you’ve effectively left two players on the enemy team without respawns, for that you’ll earn a Level II bonus. If you destroy over 9, you’ve really gone above and beyond and shown complete superiority over the enemy, earning a Level III Skill bonus, awarding you with a large, well deserved RP boost.

We plan on implementing this mechanic along with the next major update in September, 2023.

Best proposal of the roadmap, I highly like this and I think it will be very positive to the gameplay and the experience of good players.

Also a big motivation for new players to improve.

It should also be done with the SL reward!

 

I agree it should be kill based, please implement it as you explained.

[SchlafenCZ 0]

I think this is the time when Snail actually made it. The bond with Gaijin and average player has resumed!

Best update for me is the (propably) end of frustration. There will be no more: two deaths no kills -14K lions and bye! That did not happen to me since 2021. Reducing repair cost was a real step forward.

Thank you Gaijin.

[firelovetank 0]

I WANT only tank battle without airforce

[Stielhandgranate 139]

I'm reposting what I sent as my comments on the proposed changes. My only issue with them is the naval changes. 

Overall, I'm happy with the changes. My biggest concern, however, are the naval changes. Currently, there are very few players in naval battles. An average battle during non-peak times will generally have 4 or 5 humans per side. Even during peak times, having a full team of humans is rare. In addition, about half of these "human" players are bots with a single premium who will leave after the first death.
I've noticed that you have significantly increased the repair costs of premium naval ships, which is quite a blow to people such as myself who play almost exclusively naval.

 

I suspect this is a move to make botting less profitable. However, this will barely make a dent in that, as they play on a 24 hour cycle, so a reduction in SL is meaningless to them but very significant for someone such as myself who can only play a few matches per day. I pay for premium, and a paid for a premium in almost every naval tree. Currently, if I want a casual experience, I play a premium lineup because I know my repair cost will be low. These changes will severely effect that.

 

In addition, if the new changes to performance rewards aren't translated to naval (most people are not going to get 9 naval kills for instance) they will further punish naval players. It's already hard enough to get matches and play against human players. Please consider reverting the 2-3 times naval repair cost increases for premiums as well as the top tier naval. Those are already very expensive to repair and required months of grinding, a huge SL investment to buy the ship plus the crew, and then a huge time investment to get the RP and SL for modules. Thank you. 

[Butane9000 44]

However, this new approach may lead to situations where certain individual vehicles are more effective at earning SL at a given Battle Rating than others. In such cases, we may use other methods, such as adjusting the vehicle's Battle Rating, modifying its technical and combat characteristics where possible, i.e. altering access to certain shell types or adjusting reload speeds, or applying general balancing factors to all vehicles in that class. To clarify, we will only be changing soft factors such as these, and won’t artificially alter any elements such as armour thickness or top speed etc to change a vehicle’s performance.

 

Do not do this level of balancing. Instead address the cost of ammunition and the earnings modifiers. BR balancing vehicles is one of the big problems with the game. Especially well known examples like the 75mm Sherman Jumbo. It's bad to do unless the vehicle is overperforming in combat against its foes by virtue of it's armor and gun.

 

Therefore, please perceive this roadmap as an experimental and exploratory endeavor. In the interest of transparency: Should it turn out that the changes outlined herein, whether in part or in their entirety, cause damage to the economic well-being of War Thunder that poses a risk to the further development of the game, we may decide to modify or roll back some or all of those changes.

 

I don't like this statement because most of what you are doing seems purely positive. The changes towards premium time and premium vehicle back ups are huge monetary incentives. 

 

Consider FP restoration on friendly capture points.

[yakisobasan3 2]

Hello everyone. I think Gaijin did a good job with this update. However, I would like to express my opinion on areas where I feel there is still room to improve the game.

 

i think the most biggest issue is CAP of RP&SL on GRB. I evaluate that get bonus with killing but, softcap of RP will is vert unmotivated thing. and it makes vehicle grind very painful. not just put kill bonus but also softcap have to be removed.

next issue is compression of BR is insufficient. like 6.7 tiger2 will much with 7.7 but Tiger2 doesnt has any chance to destroy 7.7 like T54 but but 7.7 vehicle can pen from front easly. 6.7 is most volume layer and 7.7 easry much with 6.7 and burying them. and a lot of people quit to play.

Also Air RB 7.0~10.0 has same problem.e.g Spitfire mk24 and F-89B has same BR is insane. 9.7 draken with no counter messuer muching with SU25 or A-6 .A10 muching is almost no counter for draken.

We should stop increasing the BR of a vehicle just because the statistics are high. Not only do unpopular vehicles tend to have higher statistical performance because they are played by a limited number of people, but players who go out of their way to play unpopular vehicles tend to be veterans. If the balance is adjusted uniformly with the popular vehicles for these reasons, the less popular vehicles will become weaker and less popular, and those who like to play more will become sticklers, which will lead to a spiral of better statistical performance and further weakening of the vehicle, which will further reduce its popularity. Therefore, Gaijin needs to adjust for performance, not statistics, when it comes to vehicles with small player populations. e.g veichles GRB french and UK.

HEAT has been improved, but APDS and HESH are oddly set to be less powerful, and some vehicles that can only use APDS and HESH are extremely affected and should be corrected as they are weakened more than necessary.

And the ammunition weakened by the real shutter update should also be strengthened, as it is strange and frustrating that some aircraft are now able to withstand 50+ rounds, despite the 30mm machine gun being lethal.

edit*And if it hits ammunition or fuel and turns completely reddish black, it should be detonated. It is important to be game consistent, especially since modern ammunition is made to burn out the shell casing when shot, as well as being quite flammable.

Edited June 14, 2023 by yakisobasan3

[Slickshotz 93]

6 hours ago, _retro__gamer_ said:

Nice changes overall. Maybe a good reason to buy premium again.

 

I miss however some mention to:

- when RP reductions are planned to be applied for high ranking tanks (V and above)

- reductions for total module RP in high ranking vehicles (V and above)

 

Also I'd like to finally have some way to "hide" from the trees the fully spaded vehicles (or to highlight non spaded ones) so I can clearly see what I miss to spade. C'mon, should be easy to implement.

They said not till the end near September for lowering RP required. Something about that just doesn't sit right with me though, that should be addressed at the very beginning. That was the main point of this whole change, but of course it's being put off.

[Falcon07 BoB 16]

I truly hope that the Revisions for silver and research are increased so Humans don't need to grind as much and CAN ENJOY the game.

I will add this.

Anything that 'recalculates, analyzes, measures statistics' without compensating for the BOT ACCOUNT BIAS will be fundamentally flawed. The basis of the calculations are foundationally flawed. Any and every 'Balance' they make before solving for the misleading factor will not be in the HUMAN players interest. See an economics quick video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puLCwaYoSos&ab_channel=FalconBoB (edited)

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by AllieFalcon07
You deleted all my forum posts

[_retro__gamer_ 400]

36 minutes ago, Slickshotz said:

They said not till the end near September for lowering RP required. Something about that just doesn't sit right with me though, that should be addressed at the very beginning. That was the main point of this whole change, but of course it's being put off.

But they said that for aircraft only:

Quote

We plan to reduce the research and purchase cost of aircraft in ranks VI-VII in the economy update by September 2023

I'm specifically asking for ground, which they dismissed completely with:

Quote

Initially, we intended to address the progression of ranks VI-VII for both aircraft and ground vehicles simultaneously, once rank VIII ground vehicles were introduced. However, we have decided to separate these events and prioritise reducing the research cost of these aircraft sooner.

 

[gapst 4]

1) I think it would be nice to rework boosters so you can activate them after the battle. It is really anoying to get teamkilled with 500% SL booster active, or simply you had a skill issue one match and eneded up with nothing. Of course it will be needed to cut the profit from it lets say by half, so you would not get some insane amount of SL/RP for that one match you choose, or make it that after booster activation, you can play 3 matches with it and choose when to use it. if the booster is for 5 uses, you can play 15 matches.
2) Second think im suggesting is give more SL reward for gun kill then missile kill. Especialy high tier, it is way harder to kill with guns (A-5C for example), then click on someone with 35g missile.
3) incrase reward for the highest achievments like Doomsday. I think 100k for it would be fine, not many players are getting 10 nukes a day to break the economy.
4) Reduce rewards for capturing points and incrase SL for kills. I know a lot of people with disagree, but you are getting to much from capture compared to kill. You are bassically holding W and get free resources. I think capture points should be more usefull in battle (like suggested FPE replenischment and we can definetly go for more fetures), then SL farm.

[Markus752 3,354]

I have to say I love the proposed changes.

 

Right now I have to play specific vehicles to make enough SL in a reasonable amount of time to purchase unlocked vehicles. Sometimes vehicles I don't even want to play or it just becomes boring after a while.

 

With these changes I see some of my favourites get their rewards increased to a point where I can play them without feeling I like I wasted time. Premiums getting more lucrative should also help sales and for me personally it also means I am forced less to ONLY play my premium vehicles since I might be able to earn enough with a couple of rounds of them.

 

Really suprised about the roadmap, it looks solid and I haven't had the feeling of "I can't wait for the next couple of months in War Thunder" for years now. Sure Major Updates are always nice but this is making me look forward to enjoying the game more and I couldn't be happier with aspect.

 

Many thanks and keep up the good work!

 

 

[Uncle J Wick@live 407]

3 hours ago, Metrallaroja said:

Best proposal of the roadmap, I highly like this and I think it will be very positive to the gameplay and the experience of good players.

Also a big motivation for new players to improve.

It should also be done with the SL reward!

 

I agree it should be kill based, please implement it as you explained.

 

I respect any deviating opinions, but describing a bonus system connected to kills only as "best proposal of the roadmap" is actually very questionable; especially as the underlying assumptions regarding gameplay are imho actually just suited to support or even increase already existing imbalances.  

1. A player, able to score a certain amount of kills, is already above average. So he dies less, score more kills and has therefore just based on common sense already higher win rates - already existing rewards for winning games cover this experience advantage. So with basic logic he has higher SLs and RP on average per game compared to new players. 
2. I fully agree that some SL rewards already existing in Air RB need a rework. Killing multiple opponents with a BR gap of 1.0 or more gives you a single reward for the first kill only and one after the match - nothing more. Scoring 3 kills with bombs gives you exactly one "surprise" reward - nothing else. So if we could agree that killing opponents with higher BRs requires more skill than farming 3 far inferior plane classes - who showed more skill: The BR 5.0 190-D9 tech tree pilot killing 3 far superior F2Gs with a BR of 6.0 or the F2G pilot farming 3 tankers/bots in Ju288s?
3. Gameplay I: Connecting skill just due to the number of kills is comprehensible but often totally misleading: I scored today 4 kills on Malta without any skill involved on my part, kill #1 as i reverse climbed above my bases expecting a bomber coming through and the 3 following fighter kills just based on the wrong target selection of them, they went low to kill my 2 last remaining team mates (ofc 2 bombers, a Ju88 and a He 111) allowing me to get easy BnZ kills - why should i get additional rewards just based on their mistakes?
4. Gameplay II: Connecting additional RP gains to certain kill numbers are perfectly suited to further increase the already existing kill steal problems in Air RB.
5. Gameplay III: Yes, reducing the enemy team with multiple kills is actually a significant contribution to win the numbers game. But actual skill is not necessarily connected to the number of kills. So if a pure German team meets a pure US team at BR 4.0 they will meet 4-5 XP-50s. Assuming the same experience level, the performance advantage of the XP-50s will prevent the German team from climbing, allowing the non-airspawn US fighters to gain alt - leading to a turkey shooting.
6. Gameplay IV: Some lower and very low BRs are already polluted with a hell of low tier clubbers, solely playing there for easy kills and to ruin the game experience for new players. You might realize this when you start a new tech tree. So rewarding those guys with extra RP or SL (as you suggested) would encourage them even more.... 
7. "Good players" with high KPB ratios: They fly usually op and undertiered vehicles as their experience advantage helps them to select the "right" planes, the "right" positioning and the "right" point of time to enter the fight - besides their usually high crew levels increase their existing superiority and their experience and performance advantage helps them to get out of critical situations if they lost situational awareness. There is nothing wrong with that. But if i compare a S-199 pilot with a KPB of 1.0 with a Wyvern pilot with 2.0 KPB everybody should decide for himself which of them is a "good" pilot.  

Anyway - the bonus will come as it is easy to implement, suited to shorten match duration and an easy to sell "candy" as rewarding actual skill (like a 1d experience rookie in a 410 kills a 100d fighter experience veteran in a XP-50) is imho technically much more complicated (and therefore expensive) to develop and to implement.

 

[CHALENGER_GB 1]

I have two suggestions for the Rewarding Your Skill part of the changes:

Firstly, as well as getting a certain number of kills to obtain the reward multiplier I think it should also be obtainable via assists. For the preliminary example you need gave you need 3, 6 and then 9 kills to obtain the next tier. The problem I have with this is that if there are games where I get 2 kills and 7 assists, in that scenario a player who got 3 kills and 0 assists will receive a RP multiplier and I will not, which seems odd since arguably I have contributed more to my team, the outcome of the battle and shown greater skill. Another reason to make this change is that there are a lot of vehicles that are "assisty" due to having lower damage rounds like AP as their main round. My suggested change is that in order to get to tier one you need 3 kills or 3 assists, then tier two 6 kills or 6 assists and so on. Alternatively, the kill and assist score could be combined and the tiers activating at 4, 8 and 12 kills+assists. This will also encourage teamwork and not incentivise what players perceive as “kill stealing”.

My second suggestion is a SL boost as well as a RP boost for skill. I have completed the American ground tree and now when I play vehicles in that tree RP does not matter because I'm not researching any vehicles so this change will have no effect for those games. The only reward I can get from those games is silver lions and it would be nice for my skill to matter in those games too. These rewards could of course be much smaller than the RP boost ranging from 5% to 15% at the lowest and highest tiers respectively.

Final recommendation is for Bonuses For Researching New In Game Nations:

I would prefer a much-reduced RP bonus that exists in all games rather than a large one for the first 3 games of the day. Even if this was to equal roughly the same amount of research points overall, I would prefer the one that exists in all games as it will be frustrating if I don't do so well in my first 3 games of the days and do better much better in the rest of my games.

Great Job:

Despite my recommendations I think the proposed economy changes are wonderful and you guys have done a really good job with this roadmap. I will give you a much deserved well done and THANK YOU!

[Target1331 3,055]

1 hour ago, Uncle J Wick@live said:

 

I respect any deviating opinions, but describing a bonus system connected to kills only as "best proposal of the roadmap" is actually very questionable; especially as the underlying assumptions regarding gameplay are imho actually just suited to support or even increase already existing imbalances.  

1. A player, able to score a certain amount of kills, is already above average. So he dies less, score more kills and has therefore just based on common sense already higher win rates - already existing rewards for winning games cover this experience advantage. So with basic logic he has higher SLs and RP on average per game compared to new players. 
2. I fully agree that some SL rewards already existing in Air RB need a rework. Killing multiple opponents with a BR gap of 1.0 or more gives you a single reward for the first kill only and one after the match - nothing more. Scoring 3 kills with bombs gives you exactly one "surprise" reward - nothing else. So if we could agree that killing opponents with higher BRs requires more skill than farming 3 far inferior plane classes - who showed more skill: The BR 5.0 190-D9 tech tree pilot killing 3 far superior F2Gs with a BR of 6.0 or the F2G pilot farming 3 tankers/bots in Ju288s?
3. Gameplay I: Connecting skill just due to the number of kills is comprehensible but often totally misleading: I scored today 4 kills on Malta without any skill involved on my part, kill #1 as i reverse climbed above my bases expecting a bomber coming through and the 3 following fighter kills just based on the wrong target selection of them, they went low to kill my 2 last remaining team mates (ofc 2 bombers, a Ju88 and a He 111) allowing me to get easy BnZ kills - why should i get additional rewards just based on their mistakes?
4. Gameplay II: Connecting additional RP gains to certain kill numbers are perfectly suited to further increase the already existing kill steal problems in Air RB.
5. Gameplay III: Yes, reducing the enemy team with multiple kills is actually a significant contribution to win the numbers game. But actual skill is not necessarily connected to the number of kills. So if a pure German team meets a pure US team at BR 4.0 they will meet 4-5 XP-50s. Assuming the same experience level, the performance advantage of the XP-50s will prevent the German team from climbing, allowing the non-airspawn US fighters to gain alt - leading to a turkey shooting.
6. Gameplay IV: Some lower and very low BRs are already polluted with a hell of low tier clubbers, solely playing there for easy kills and to ruin the game experience for new players. You might realize this when you start a new tech tree. So rewarding those guys with extra RP or SL (as you suggested) would encourage them even more.... 
7. "Good players" with high KPB ratios: They fly usually op and undertiered vehicles as their experience advantage helps them to select the "right" planes, the "right" positioning and the "right" point of time to enter the fight - besides their usually high crew levels increase their existing superiority and their experience and performance advantage helps them to get out of critical situations if they lost situational awareness. There is nothing wrong with that. But if i compare a S-199 pilot with a KPB of 1.0 with a Wyvern pilot with 2.0 KPB everybody should decide for himself which of them is a "good" pilot.  

Anyway - the bonus will come as it is easy to implement, suited to shorten match duration and an easy to sell "candy" as rewarding actual skill (like a 1d experience rookie in a 410 kills a 100d fighter experience veteran in a XP-50) is imho technically much more complicated (and therefore expensive) to develop and to implement.

 

Ran out of upvotes, but totally agree, which is why I've been advocating for years now to at least return the proximity reward, because at least it would return some reward for actual skill, baiting, defensive flying, pushing enemies towards better suited friendlies (either because they are in a better position/situation, or because you would otherwise have to give up an advantage that you need later).
Best regards,

Phil

---------------- Manual signature until those and profile pics are returned ----------------
Bring back forum profile pictures and signatures!
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/578365-return-custom-avatar/

My complete tech trees (incl. all special vehicles) spreadsheet is updated to match 2.23 (only accurate atm for list & status of vehicles): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13bjEgsDhTjJhXt9N4fzIzvWa7cvy-KSDQc1HNNOZuaI/edit Contains probably all vehicles WT has published.

[Zucc_Boi 656]

Quote

To clarify, we will only be changing soft factors such as these, and won’t artificially alter any elements such as armour thickness or top speed etc to change a vehicle’s performance.

The changes are quite positive, if they'll really happen. But this here is a blatant lie that you really should have omitted if you want to restore trust. Buffing or nerfing armor has been a balancing tool for a very long time, and it's only becoming more and more common. There are probably more vehicles above 9.0 with wholly unrealistic armor than those with realistic armor.

[Manaherz 622]

I Play since early 2013 and i must stop playing many times do to the lose of SL and the whole frustration that comes with it. Particulary in Sim EC…

 

i like the ideas and cant wait for a (finaly) better future for war thunder.  Its the first (and hopefully) not the Last step into a better healthy future
 

 Now the only thing thats missing are big ECmaps for Tanks/a meaningfull gamemode^^

Edited June 14, 2023 by Manaherz