ground vehicles Daimler Armored Car

[CaID 8,996]

This Suggestion is in support of the Armored Cars research line project

 

I would like to introduce you an interesting Armored car. the Daimler Armored Car



this Armored car was designed by Daimler in 1939. it was designed in parallel with the Daimler Dingo scout car. a turret-less armored car with many similar feature. the Daimler was use ad Armored Fighting vehicles and fight durring the whole WW2 in north affrica, Europe and south-east-asia. it also use in many other war including the Korean war and vietnam war and other smaller comflict in middle east and india. his 4 independant wheel allow the Daimler armored car to be use in mud, sand or rocky ground. the great mobility of the car made the Daimler armored car's service last until 1960 in the british army and was still use in other army and saw action in battle as late as 2009. 2,694 Daimler armored car was built in total.

the car was simple. there was 16mm of armor in the front hull. 6 for the rest of the hull. the turret was very simmilar to the actuall A17 tetrach with 16mm on the gun mantlet, 14mm on the fount and side and 10mm on the rear and 4mm on the top. the engine was a powerful 95hp placed in the rear and linked through a fluid flywheel to a Wilson preselector gearbox and then by propshafts to each wheel.

the turret was manned by a gunner and a commander in a very small space. there was just enough place to have the gun recoils without hurting the crew. the gun was a OQF 2pndr with 52 rounds and a 7.92 besa MG with 2500 rounds was use as secondary armament on the side of the gun and a single 0.303 BREN Light Machine Gun could be installed along the turret roof.

 

there was 4 variant of the Daimler armored car.

The Daimler Mk I

Spoiler

The base version as usually seem on the picture and described on the previous statement.

 

the Daimler Mk II

Spoiler

same as Mk I but with improved turret, modified gun mount, better radiator, driver escape hatch incorporated into roof, WP Grenade container fitted in turret and smoke generator container modified.

 

The Daimler Mk I Littlejohn

Spoiler

 

it was an Daimler Mk I with a littlejohn adaptator 2-Pounder could only fire its special APCNR ammo. the littlejohn was added to the end of the gun to fire APCNR round. The round upon firing travelled the first part of the bore as normal, but on entering the tapering portion the softer and malleable metal of the outer shell of the round was compressed - from 40 mm to approximately 30 mm. The round when it emerged from the adapter now had a smaller cross-section than before. Together with the higher driving pressure developed in the barrel of diminishing internal volume compared to standard cylindrical bore, the APCNR round, called APSV (from armor-piercing super velocity), traveled faster, over a flatter trajectory. The muzzle velocity of the APSV Mark II shell was 1,143 m/s compared with the 792 m/s of the normal 1.2 kg APCBC shell. The lighter Mark I APSV shell was capable of penetrating 88 mm of armor at 450 m at a 30-degree angle of impact.

 

The Daimler MK I CS

Spoiler

close support version with 76 mm gun.probably the QF 3-inch howitzer, as used on early British tanks like the Matilda II CS and the Churchill I. sadly, no picture was been found and i got few info on it and from bad reliable source.

The Daimler SOD

Spoiler

a turret-less version use for command post. we don't really want that one in the game.

Now the stats for the Daimler AC

Weight	7.6 t
Length	13 feet 1 inch (4 m)
Width	8 feet 1 inch (2.46 m)
Height	7 feet 5 inches (2.26 m)
Crew	3
Armor	Hull front = 16mm Hull elsewhere = 7mm Gun qantlet = 16mm Turret front and side = 14mm Turret rear = 10mm Turret top = 4mm
Main armament	2 Pounder QF 52 rounds
Secondary armament	1 × coaxial 7.92 mm Basa MG 2,700 rounds 1 × 0.303 (7.7 mm) Bren ligth MG AA
Elevation Engine	-15/ 25 degret all around Daimler 27 4.1 litre 6-cylinder Petrol 95 hp (71 kW)
Power/weight	12.5 hp/tonne
Transmission	5 speed (both directions) with fluid flywheel
Suspension	4 × 4 wheel, independent coil spring
Operational range	200 miles (320 km)

Speed	50 miles per hour (80 km/h)

 

 

Source
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/UK/daimler-armoured-car/
http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=477
http://www.daimler-fighting-vehicles.co.uk/
http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Daimler_Armoured_Cars.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler_Armoured_Car

 

Other British Armored cars included in the Armored Cars research line project

Guy Mk.I

Guy Mk.Ia

Humber AC MK.I

Humber AC MK.II

Humber AC MK.IV

Daimler AC Mk.I

Daimler AC Mk.II (added to Up-date 1.71)

Daimler AC Mk.I CS

T17E1 Stanghound Mk.I

Coventry Armored car Mk.I

Coventry Armored car Mk.II

T17E1 Stanghound Mk.II

T17E1 Stanghound Mk.III (57)

T17E1 Stanghound Mk.III (75)

T17E3

T17E1 Tulip 4

T17E1 Tulip 8

AEC AC Mk.I

AEC AC Mk.II

AEC AC Mk.III

FV601C Saladin

FV601a

FV721 Fox

Fox 25

Fox 76

Saladin 90

Furret Mk.II/VI

Furret Mk.V

Saladin Swinfire

Fox Milan

 

 

Edited September 4, 2017 by CaID
add the littlejohn and the info on the CS

[blakeob 8,086]

Open for discussion. 

[Dan_RAFBC 1,201]

Again, full support from me. Love the Daimler and also would be nice to see the Humber armoured car variants:

 

[Sabrean 65]

An iconic vehicle that saw lots of service, when we get armoured cars the Mark I should definitely be included.

 

There's arguably another sub-variant by the way - the Daimler is known to have used the Littlejohn adapter for the 2-Pounder in combat, unlike most other 2-Pounder armed vehicles. This photo, apparently taken during Operation Market Garden, is of a Daimler from Guards Armoured Division fitted with the LittleJohn adapter:

 

Here's another photo of one during WW2 from the Imperial War Museum Collection.

 

Since when fitted with the Littlejohn the 2-Pounder could only fire its special APCNR ammo, and since it visually changes the barrel quite significantly, I reckon we should get a Daimler with the Littlejohn adapter as a separate vehicle to the standard one. Should be rather potent too - If I remember right it gives it similar penetration values to the 6-Pounder firing conventional ammo types. No idea what kind of post-penetration effects it would have in game though.

 

 

On the subject of that CS Daimler with a 76mm, if that's the gun I think it is (The QF 3-inch howitzer, as used on early British tanks like the Matilda II CS and the Churchill I) then whether it should be added depends on its ammunition load. To my knowledge the 3-inch equipped CS tanks that saw action only ever used smoke and HE rounds, and so if it was equipped accurately as such in War Thunder it would be rather useless.

 

However, supposedly an experimental HEAT round may have been developed. WWII Ballistics: Armour and Gunnery does list a 3-inch HEAT round and gives it 75mm of penetration against a vertical plate at all ranges. If this round did indeed exist, and it was given to the 3-inch howitzer in game, then the CS Daimler could be added. I suppose the question then becomes whether it should be allowed to have such a round. Given that many US 75mm armed tanks in game have access to their experimental APCR rounds, I don't think this would be much of a problem.

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

49 minutes ago, Sabrean said:

An iconic vehicle that saw lots of service, when we get armoured cars the Mark I should definitely be included.

 

There's arguably another sub-variant by the way - the Daimler is known to have used the Littlejohn adapter for the 2-Pounder in combat, unlike most other 2-Pounder armed vehicles. This photo, apparently taken during Operation Market Garden, is of a Daimler from Guards Armoured Division fitted with the LittleJohn adapter:

 

Here's another photo of one during WW2 from the Imperial War Museum Collection.

 

Since when fitted with the Littlejohn the 2-Pounder could only fire its special APCNR ammo, and since it visually changes the barrel quite significantly, I reckon we should get a Daimler with the Littlejohn adapter as a separate vehicle to the standard one. Should be rather potent too - If I remember right it gives it similar penetration values to the 6-Pounder firing conventional ammo types. No idea what kind of post-penetration effects it would have in game though.

 

 

On the subject of that CS Daimler with a 76mm, if that's the gun I think it is (The QF 3-inch howitzer, as used on early British tanks like the Matilda II CS and the Churchill I) then whether it should be added depends on its ammunition load. To my knowledge the 3-inch equipped CS tanks that saw action only ever used smoke and HE rounds, and so if it was equipped accurately as such in War Thunder it would be rather useless.

 

However, supposedly an experimental HEAT round may have been developed. WWII Ballistics: Armour and Gunnery does list a 3-inch HEAT round and gives it 75mm of penetration against a vertical plate at all ranges. If this round did indeed exist, and it was given to the 3-inch howitzer in game, then the CS Daimler could be added. I suppose the question then becomes whether it should be allowed to have such a round. Given that many US 75mm armed tanks in game have access to their experimental APCR rounds, I don't think this would be much of a problem.

There was another experimental HEAT round developed iirc. I'll have to check when I get home.

[TasteTheTea 3,203]

56 minutes ago, Sabrean said:

An iconic vehicle that saw lots of service, when we get armoured cars the Mark I should definitely be included.

 

There's arguably another sub-variant by the way - the Daimler is known to have used the Littlejohn adapter for the 2-Pounder in combat, unlike most other 2-Pounder armed vehicles. This photo, apparently taken during Operation Market Garden, is of a Daimler from Guards Armoured Division fitted with the LittleJohn adapter:

 

Here's another photo of one during WW2 from the Imperial War Museum Collection.

 

Since when fitted with the Littlejohn the 2-Pounder could only fire its special APCNR ammo, and since it visually changes the barrel quite significantly, I reckon we should get a Daimler with the Littlejohn adapter as a separate vehicle to the standard one. Should be rather potent too - If I remember right it gives it similar penetration values to the 6-Pounder firing conventional ammo types. No idea what kind of post-penetration effects it would have in game though.

The post-penetration would be the same as APDS AFAIK. It was essentially the same thing-a smaller projectile with the same energy as the larger projectile. It should be just as good as APDS against slopes too.

 

Here are the penetration stats for the 2 lbr LJ:

[_EQUAI_ 356]

Another beautiful car is suggested!

[Results45 2,200]

More tea, MORE GIB!  

[Giobhas 1,095]

Yes! I love armored car

[TasteTheTea 3,203]

2 hours ago, Sabrean said:

However, supposedly an experimental HEAT round may have been developed. WWII Ballistics: Armour and Gunnery does list a 3-inch HEAT round and gives it 75mm of penetration against a vertical plate at all ranges. If this round did indeed exist, and it was given to the 3-inch howitzer in game, then the CS Daimler could be added. I suppose the question then becomes whether it should be allowed to have such a round. Given that many US 75mm armed tanks in game have access to their experimental APCR rounds, I don't think this would be much of a problem.

 

1 hour ago, Mercedes4321 said:

There was another experimental HEAT round developed iirc. I'll have to check when I get home.

I think that 3" HEAT round in WWII Ballistics may be in reference to the RP-3 rockets mounted on the Sherman Tulip. While the Tulip is not in-game, the Cromwell RP-3 is and the penetration for the 3" RP-3 rockets it has is 75mm.

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

46 minutes ago, Time4Tea said:

 

I think that 3" HEAT round in WWII Ballistics may be in reference to the RP-3 rockets mounted on the Sherman Tulip. While the Tulip is not in-game, the Cromwell RP-3 is and the penetration for the 3" RP-3 rockets it has is 75mm.

Could very well be, but I know of another experimental one, I just have to check when I get home.

[CaID 8,996]

3 hours ago, Sabrean said:

An iconic vehicle that saw lots of service, when we get armoured cars the Mark I should definitely be included.

 

There's arguably another sub-variant by the way - the Daimler is known to have used the Littlejohn adapter for the 2-Pounder in combat, unlike most other 2-Pounder armed vehicles. This photo, apparently taken during Operation Market Garden, is of a Daimler from Guards Armoured Division fitted with the LittleJohn adapter:

 

Here's another photo of one during WW2 from the Imperial War Museum Collection.

 

Since when fitted with the Littlejohn the 2-Pounder could only fire its special APCNR ammo, and since it visually changes the barrel quite significantly, I reckon we should get a Daimler with the Littlejohn adapter as a separate vehicle to the standard one. Should be rather potent too - If I remember right it gives it similar penetration values to the 6-Pounder firing conventional ammo types. No idea what kind of post-penetration effects it would have in game though.

 

 

On the subject of that CS Daimler with a 76mm, if that's the gun I think it is (The QF 3-inch howitzer, as used on early British tanks like the Matilda II CS and the Churchill I) then whether it should be added depends on its ammunition load. To my knowledge the 3-inch equipped CS tanks that saw action only ever used smoke and HE rounds, and so if it was equipped accurately as such in War Thunder it would be rather useless.

 

However, supposedly an experimental HEAT round may have been developed. WWII Ballistics: Armour and Gunnery does list a 3-inch HEAT round and gives it 75mm of penetration against a vertical plate at all ranges. If this round did indeed exist, and it was given to the 3-inch howitzer in game, then the CS Daimler could be added. I suppose the question then becomes whether it should be allowed to have such a round. Given that many US 75mm armed tanks in game have access to their experimental APCR rounds, I don't think this would be much of a problem.

The post-penetration would be the same as APDS AFAIK. It was essentially the same thing-a smaller projectile with the same energy as the larger projectile. It should be just as good as APDS against slopes too.

 

Here are the penetration stats for the 2 lbr LJ:

very intteresting infos. i will add the little john variation in the suggestion. i will also add the infos about the QF-3 but iin both case, it would help to have source and reference to add. about the CS, i would like a picture to see what it was like

Edited April 12, 2017 by CaID

[Sabrean 65]

1 hour ago, Time4Tea said:

 

I think that 3" HEAT round in WWII Ballistics may be in reference to the RP-3 rockets mounted on the Sherman Tulip. While the Tulip is not in-game, the Cromwell RP-3 is and the penetration for the 3" RP-3 rockets it has is 75mm.

I'm not so sure, I mean first off I'm not sure the HE/GP hollow charge RP-3s were used or even in produced in WW2 - I thought the rockets the Tulips used were the HE/SAP ones, which to my understanding are not a hollow charge HEAT warhead like the HE/GP but instead something more akin to simply HE, allowing them to fulfill their intended role on the tulips of stunning and demoralising enemy troops. Therefore I reckon that the RP-3 being the 3-inch entry in WWII Ballistics is more unlikely than it simply being some form of conventionally fired HEAT shell. Whether that entry is actually for the QF 3-inch howitzer or some other 3-inch gun though, or even for another calibre gun entirely like say the 3.7 inch howitzer, could be up for debate - I'm not saying WWII Ballistics is infallible, there's certainly a few mistakes in its section on British vehicles' armour for example. It just seems to me that it being for an RP-3 seems a tad far-fetched, although I'm happy to be proven wrong by something more concrete.

 

Whilst admittedly I don't have any proper written sources on RP-3s, wwiiequipment.com seems the best source I can find on the internet on the subject, that website's normally fairly decent - it certainly does a lot better on British tank armour than most. That site gives 198mm for the hollow charge RP-3, which is significantly different from the mystery 3-inch HEAT's 75mm. Sadly no figures for HE/SAP penetration is given, perhaps that can be found elsewhere.

 

1 hour ago, CaID said:

very intteresting infos. i will add the little john variation in the suggestion. i will also add the infos about the QF-3 but iin both case, it would help to have source and reference to add. about the CS, i would like a picture to see what it was like

Well when it comes to the Littlejohn adapter, Time4Tea already posted the penetration values for it from World War II Ballistics: Armour and Gunnery by Lorrin Rexford Bird and Robert D. Livingstone. Otherwise, there's a fair amount of info on it knocking around. The Wikipedia article on it actually seems pretty decent. wwiiequipment.com looks to have good info on it too. It's also mentioned in the penetration test documents Mercedes4321 recently posted in your A24 thread. I'm sure there's plenty more out there too.

 

As for the CS Daimler, it is indeed trickier, I haven't be able to find any photos of it in the IWM collections anyway. A quick google search brings up this, and if the label is trustworthy and it is indeed a verified photo from Bovington archives it's still not too useful for anything but verifying the CS Daimler existed, as it's rather blurry. That the image is from an alternate history forum does set off some alarm bells, but a quick read of the context suggests it was posted as part of a proper discussion, rather than as an attempt to make something up.

 

Still, for what it's worth there's a Tetrarch CS at Bovington which in theory has the same gun and a very similar if not identical turret according to the Bovington article on it. So take the turret off that and plonk it on the Daimler and that should be a decent representation at the least.

 

The Bovington article on their Daimler II suggests British Tanks and Fighting Vehicles 1914-1945; B.T. White; SBN 7110 0123 5; Ian Allan, London, 1970 as further reading on the subject of Daimler armoured cars. I don't have a copy of this book, but it might be something to try and look up.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Sabrean

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

I found the experimental HEAT shell I was looking for

 

[TasteTheTea 3,203]

12 minutes ago, Mercedes4321 said:

I found the experimental HEAT shell I was looking for

 

Wow 150mm of pen? At 30 degrees too? That would be superior to the 95mm HEAT. Perhaps somehow the 76mm had more filler than the 95mm, the 95mm is bigger but I guess the 76mm could be longer.

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

1 minute ago, Time4Tea said:

Wow 150mm of pen? At 30 degrees too? That would be superior to the 95mm HEAT. Perhaps somehow the 76mm had more filler than the 95mm, the 95mm is bigger but I guess the 76mm could be longer.

One of the advantages of the Cambridge Shell was indeed increased filler.

[TasteTheTea 3,203]

1 minute ago, Mercedes4321 said:

One of the advantages of the Cambridge Shell was indeed increased filler.

Nice, starting to think I could very much enjoy any vehicle with the 3" Howitzer attached to it.

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

22 minutes ago, Time4Tea said:

Nice, starting to think I could very much enjoy any vehicle with the 3" Howitzer attached to it.

That is quite a few vehicles.

[FuryMkI 732]

Regarding the performance of the RP3 rocket on the Cromwell Tulip, it is just Gaijin messing things up once again...

 

No RP3 "Heat" warhead were used during ww2 as far as I know, the rocket used on the tulip are 60LB HE S.A.P, I know that for the Firefly Tulip, the rails ( or projector as they were officially known ) were taken from leftover stock of rails from Typhoon squadrons, probably as they switched to the lighter aluminum MkIII rails, while it is difficult to find specific data regarding the penetration of the RP3, Tony Williams in his book "Flying Guns – World War 2: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1933-45" gives a number of aproximatyely 1 inch of penetration for the 60lb HE S.A.P, in comparison  I have found number of 1 1/2 inch for the U.S HVAR.

 

Now regarding the Cromwell Tulip, maybe the 75mm number could have been mistaken with the performance of the 25lb, as it is actually the penetration for the 25lb A.P. MkI at a 20° angle, but personally I would tend to think that Gaijin just threw that number away without basing it on any official data...

 

On topic, I definitely support any commonwealth armoured car, so every one of the variant suggested in the regular three for me.

[Hannibal_Barcia 105]

Service history: 

The Daimler Armored Car (DAC) was designed by the engineers of the Birmingham Small Arms Company with serial manufacture handled by Daimler. The DAC was developed alongside the smaller Daimler "Dingo", a compact 4x4 wheeled two-manned system used for the scouting role. The DAC differed through its larger overall dimensions (relying on a crew of three), greater inherent power, and installation of a light tank turret (taken from the Mark VII series). This gave the DAC better performance, mobility, and firepower that made it an excellent reconnaissance platform, convoy escort, and internal security solution for the duration of the war and in the years following.

(http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=477)

 

Like the Dingo, the Daimler AC was extensively used in North Africa, notably with the 11th Hussars and Derbyshire Yeomanry. Others saw action in Europe. Late war reconnaissance squadrons in NW Europe generally comprised two Daimler Armoured Cars and two Dingo scout cars. Some received a Littlejohn adaptor for their 2 pounder gun. The device worked on the squeeze bore principle to increase the gun’s theoretical armor penetration.

 

A few served in the Asiatic theater, like the 16th Light Cavalry British Indian Army armored car regiment (part of Fourteenth Army troops) in the reconquest of Burma.

 

Postwar use was extensive, as Daimlers were used by the territorial units of the British Army until the 1960s, well outlasting the Coventry Armoured Car. The 11th Hussars, B Squadron, deployed them in Northern Ireland as late as January 1960. Also postwar, the 63th Cavalry Indian Army regiment used this model for one of its squadrons, later reformed as an independent reconnaissance squadron and, later updated to the integral squadron. Some formed the mounts of the President’s Bodyguard. They served in the defense of Chushul at heights above 14,000 ft during the 1962 Indo-China War.

 

Post-war service of the Daimler AC also included The Korean War, The Vietnam War, The 1948 Arab–Israeli War, The Indo-Pakistani War, The Ceylonese insurrection of 1971 and Sri Lankan civil war. This vehicle was used post war by  eleven countries, Australia, Belgium, Canada, India, Israel, Malaysia, New Zealand, Qatar, Sri Lanka, United Kingdom, and Poland.

(http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/UK/daimler-armoured-car/)

Specifications:

Dimensions	4 x 2.46 x 2.26 m (13’1” x 8’1” x 7’95”)
Total weight, battle ready	7.6 tons
Crew	3 (driver, gunner, loader)
Propulsion	Daimler 27 4.1 litre, 6-cylinder petrol, 95 hp (71 kW), 12.5 hp/ton
Suspension	4×4 independent coil springs
Speed (road)	80 km/h (50 mph)
Range	320 km (200 mi)
Armament	2-pdr (40 mm) gun, 0.303 in (7.7 mm) AA LMG
Armor	12 mm sides to 30 mm front (0.24-0.35 in)
Total production	2693 in 1941-1945

 

Reference(http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/UK/daimler-armoured-car/)

Mark 1 – The first version

Mark 1 CS - Close support version with 76 mm (3 in) gun

Mark 2 - Improved turret with modified gun mount, better radiator, driver escape hatch incorporated into the roof, WP Grenade container fitted to the turret and smoke generator container modified.

 

Mark I.

Mark I CS - close support version with 76 mm gun.

Mark II - improved turret, modified gun mount, better radiator, driver escape hatch incorporated into roof, WP Grenade container fitted in turret and smoke generator container modified

A turretless regimental command version, known as SOD ("Sawn-Off Daimler").

Reference (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler_Armoured_Car)

 

 

Mk1 

Mk2

 

Unfortunately I couldn't find a picture of a Daimler Mk1 CS 76mm if you know of one or have a picture please send me link so i can use it that would be of most help thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2017 by SAUBER_KH7
Prefix.

[Results45 2,200]

Gibbing this^^  

[Admiral_Aruon 2,264]

i'd go for these. the WT meta is ever so slowly shifting towards speed. and with how many suggestions there are of ACs, and that an sd kfz 234 model is now ingame, it's clear gaijin is interested in armored cars.

[Orlunu 6,863]

Yes.

Gib poll.

[CaID 8,996]

was already suggested not so long ago

 

 

[Results45 2,200]

3 hours ago, CaID said:

was already suggested not so long ago

 

 

 

Merge maybe?