tech tree Visegrad Group - Ground tech tree

[HufnagelPista 135]

5 hours ago, _Condottiero_ said:

Do Hungarian Leopards have any peculiarities?

Just a little addition to what Miltaccfd said previously:
The Leo A4-s are leased for training purpose, but the gun is the same L44 what we have in the game, it should be able to fire almost every 120mm  ammunition (except the american DU rounds).
The 2A7+HU should have a new gun, the L55A1, and that should be able to handle higher chamber pressure than the regular L55. (Maybe the gun breech is similar to the americans?)
About the rounds... Miltaccfd wrote DM53/63 with a purpose, They are almost the same, only difference is the propellant. It can tolerate higher temperature differences in the DM63... But the penetration, ballistics should be the same.
And one more thing. Based on what I seen, the 2A7 should have the armor kit on the front of the hull, like the swedish leos.

[Miltaccfd 240]

24 minutes ago, HufnagelPista said:

And one more thing. Based on what I seen, the 2A7 should have the armor kit on the front of the hull, like the swedish leos.

 

Hungarian A7+ will be an A7+. On that tank, the frontal armor upgrade is not special, thats why its not mentioned. The HU mod will be equipped with the urban armor package (they said it will be optimized for urban combat), thats something a normal A7+ doesnt have. Basic A7+ is 67,5 t, Hungarian A7+ will be around 69-72 t.

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

Found a couple of pics of SPAAGs that could go on this tree.  Both of them are Czech modifications of a T-34.  One of them's got quad DSHks, the other has some kind of cannon that I can't identify for sure but I think it's a 57 mm Bofors. The one with the cannon apparently has 5 degrees of gun depression too so you can use it for certain hull-down shenanigans against enemy tanks.

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Z3r0_

[AftiksPL 197]

7 hours ago, Z3r0_ said:

Found a couple of pics of SPAAGs that could go on this tree.  Both of them are Czech modifications of a T-34.  One of them's got quad DSHks, the other has some kind of cannon that I can't identify for sure but I think it's a 57 mm Bofors. The one with the cannon apparently has 5 degrees of gun depression too so you can use it for certain hull-down shenanigans against enemy tanks.

 

A T-34 with a quad 12.7mm might work, but there is one problem with it. The maximum BR on which it can be is 2.3-2.7, and there should be no post-war machines on this BR. 

There is another problem with the T-34 R-10, historically only HE shells fired in reflection. However, there is information about 57mm AP shells for another Czechoslovak gun, the A-25, but it is not known whether its shells would be compatible with the R-10 gun.

[Miltaccfd 240]

1 hour ago, AftiksPL said:

There is another problem with the T-34 R-10, historically only HE shells fired in reflection. However, there is information about 57mm AP shells for another Czechoslovak gun, the A-25, but it is not known whether its shells would be compatible with the R-10 gun.

Czech AA gun shot 57x398 mm ammunition, S-60 shot 57x347 mmSR, and I dont know what A-25 ammo is. I have no proof of the two are compatible, nor they are not. The only "proof" there were at least plans for a 57x398 mm AP shell is the LP-157 development, where it was said 32 AP ammunition was meant to be carried for its R12 autocannon, which as far as I know shot the same cartridges R10 did. But we have no info of the AP ammo performance, nor it was manufactured or not made at all. Considering that T-34 R10 turret was a mockup, LP-157 superstructure was a mockup, we dont have any info on their AP ammo, I can not add them to the suggetion.

Czech quad 12,7 mm SPAAG can be good, even if its superstructure was a mockup, its guns are already modelled ingame. Im not against that vehicle, only here, where I wanted to make a tree which can be assigned to the nations of Axis and post-war, the Soviets. (The reason why I did this is there is 3 Axis nation (Germany, Italy, Japan) right now versus 5 Allied (US, USSR, GB, French, China), plus there is Sweden, and there is 2 communist nations (USSR and China) versus all other 7 at higher tiers, so it makes sense to trying to equalize the forces, and do a low tier axis and a high tier communist tree.) This means this vehicle is not allowed here, because its under 5.3-5.7 and its a USSR related post war vehicle.

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

On 08/05/2021 at 03:49, Miltaccfd said:

Czech AA gun shot 57x398 mm ammunition, S-60 shot 57x347 mmSR, and I dont know what A-25 ammo is. I have no proof of the two are compatible, nor they are not. The only "proof" there were at least plans for a 57x398 mm AP shell is the LP-157 development, where it was said 32 AP ammunition was meant to be carried for its R12 autocannon, which as far as I know shot the same cartridges R10 did. But we have no info of the AP ammo performance, nor it was manufactured or not made at all. Considering that T-34 R10 turret was a mockup, LP-157 superstructure was a mockup, we dont have any info on their AP ammo, I can not add them to the suggetion.

Czech quad 12,7 mm SPAAG can be good, even if its superstructure was a mockup, its guns are already modelled ingame. Im not against that vehicle, only here, where I wanted to make a tree which can be assigned to the nations of Axis and post-war, the Soviets. (The reason why I did this is there is 3 Axis nation (Germany, Italy, Japan) right now versus 5 Allied (US, USSR, GB, French, China), plus there is Sweden, and there is 2 communist nations (USSR and China) versus all other 7 at higher tiers, so it makes sense to trying to equalize the forces, and do a low tier axis and a high tier communist tree.) This means this vehicle is not allowed here, because its under 5.3-5.7 and its a USSR related post war vehicle.

 

Fair enough, but still, they are modified vehicles of Czech origin, so they're here for consideration if nothing else.

[GrumpyStranger 723]

The LV-157 (quad dushka) was abandoned before a full scale model could be completed (hence the badly pasted-in dushka). In any case, the placement of the quad mount would make it hard to operate in an anti-ground capacity...

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

On 10/05/2021 at 10:27, GrumpyStranger said:

The LV-157 (quad dushka) was abandoned before a full scale model could be completed (hence the badly pasted-in dushka). In any case, the placement of the quad mount would make it hard to operate in an anti-ground capacity...

 

True, though you could argue that SPAAGs aren't supposed to engage enemy armored units.

[GrumpyStranger 723]

There's about half a dozen snarky ways I could have responded to that hypothetical, but I can't seem to decide on the best one...

 

How about this instead. If a vehicle in Ground battles does not have the capability to engage Ground vehicles, then perhaps it has no business being in Ground battles, since planes in Ground battles are present in an ancillary and episodic capacity.

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

Suggestion: AHS Krab howitzer mounted on the old Polish UPG-NG chassis.

 

PZL-Wola S-12U 12-cylinder diesel engine with a power of 625 kW (850 KM). Old AHS Krab Howitzer chassis, which was used in the first production series. Then, due to technical and material defects, the armor steel was replaced by a Korean Samsung Techwin license chassis used in the K9 Thunder cannon.

 

Suggestion: AHS Krab howitzer mounted on the K9PL chassis

 

The drive is the MTU MT 881 Ka 500 turbodiesel with a maximum power of 1,000 horsepower (735 kW) at 2,700 rpm. The vehicle uses an ALLISON X1100 - 5A3 transmission, a range of four forward and two reverse gears, and an integrated braking system, an integrated control system and the ability to rotate around its axis in place. The source of electricity is a 28 V DC power generator with an output power of 5.5 kW used in the vehicle. There is a combat compartment in the middle and rear of the hull. Additionally, the K9PL is equipped with a Polish-made hydropneumatic suspension.

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

On 11/05/2021 at 16:36, GrumpyStranger said:

There's about half a dozen snarky ways I could have responded to that hypothetical, but I can't seem to decide on the best one...

 

How about this instead. If a vehicle in Ground battles does not have the capability to engage Ground vehicles, then perhaps it has no business being in Ground battles, since planes in Ground battles are present in an ancillary and episodic capacity.

 

Counter-argument: there are already several SPAAGs in-game that can't effectively engage ground units within their BR range.  If it becomes that big of an issue for this T-34 with quad DSHks, it could be downtiered until it becomes competitive.  I don't honestly see it being any higher than rank 2 and maybe BR 3.0 despite being a post-war modification.  The one with the 57 mm, on the other hand...

[GrumpyStranger 723]

There's still the difference between 'effectively' and 'at all'. It's the reason you will never see F-113 or B-52s in the game- not giving the player even the illusion that he can defend themselves makes for a frustrating vehicle.

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

On 14/05/2021 at 08:52, GrumpyStranger said:

There's still the difference between 'effectively' and 'at all'. It's the reason you will never see F-113 or B-52s in the game- not giving the player even the illusion that he can defend themselves makes for a frustrating vehicle.

 

Remember that the Soviet tree presently has a post-war truck with three KORDs on its SPAAG branch.

[GrumpyStranger 723]

You mean the BTR-152 with *two* *KPVT*? What of it? Sure, it has only -5 degrees minimum elevation, which is already pushing it, but it's still better than what the LV-157 would have had.

[Miltaccfd 240]

On 12/05/2021 at 15:46, AkIvonDemolka said:

Suggestion: AHS Krab howitzer mounted on the old Polish UPG-NG chassis.

 

PZL-Wola S-12U 12-cylinder diesel engine with a power of 625 kW (850 KM). Old AHS Krab Howitzer chassis, which was used in the first production series. Then, due to technical and material defects, the armor steel was replaced by a Korean Samsung Techwin license chassis used in the K9 Thunder cannon.

 

Suggestion: AHS Krab howitzer mounted on the K9PL chassis

 

The drive is the MTU MT 881 Ka 500 turbodiesel with a maximum power of 1,000 horsepower (735 kW) at 2,700 rpm. The vehicle uses an ALLISON X1100 - 5A3 transmission, a range of four forward and two reverse gears, and an integrated braking system, an integrated control system and the ability to rotate around its axis in place. The source of electricity is a 28 V DC power generator with an output power of 5.5 kW used in the vehicle. There is a combat compartment in the middle and rear of the hull. Additionally, the K9PL is equipped with a Polish-made hydropneumatic suspension.

Im still gaining info on ammunition APR 155 (and APR 120 for Rak mortar vehicles)
Including does the vehicle have a laser target designator to guide them or it has to be done from out of them? Somewhere I read these are AT grenades, too (at least APR 120), but not found the source again giving any penetration value. I dont know what the penetration can be. Also thinking of airburst, because being laser guided, HE(AT?) and maybe airburst too would mean a deadly sentence to helicopters, which wont even have a missile launch warning...

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

3 hours ago, Miltaccfd said:

Im still gaining info on ammunition APR 155 (and APR 120 for Rak mortar vehicles)
Including does the vehicle have a laser target designator to guide them or it has to be done from out of them? Somewhere I read these are AT grenades, too (at least APR 120), but not found the source again giving any penetration value. I dont know what the penetration can be. Also thinking of airburst, because being laser guided, HE(AT?) and maybe airburst too would mean a deadly sentence to helicopters, which wont even have a missile launch warning...

The Rak has a laser target pointer, as is the Krab known as the LPC-1 laser target designator. Crab will get APR 155 which is a modified APR 120 for Rak. It is currently being tested and research is showing very good results. I would like to add that the APR 120 ammunition will use the same laser guidance system as in the case of the Pirat ATGM and APR 155 ammunition for the Krab howitzers and in the Kryl perspective, under full national control and compliant with NATO standards. One of the main tasks of the APR 120 ammunition will be to counter armored targets, targeting them from the upper hemisphere, where protection is usually weaker than at the front of the turret or tank hull. Penetrations are difficult to determine at present. Overall, helicopters will have little time to dodge once the missile APR 120 is close. The fact that it will be hard to find where it fired from.

 

First APR 120

Second APR 155

[Miltaccfd 240]

1 hour ago, AkIvonDemolka said:

The Rak has a laser target pointer, as is the Krab known as the LPC-1 laser target designator. Crab will get APR 155 which is a modified APR 120 for Rak. It is currently being tested and research is showing very good results. I would like to add that the APR 120 ammunition will use the same laser guidance system as in the case of the Pirat ATGM and APR 155 ammunition for the Krab howitzers and in the Kryl perspective, under full national control and compliant with NATO standards. One of the main tasks of the APR 120 ammunition will be to counter armored targets, targeting them from the upper hemisphere, where protection is usually weaker than at the front of the turret or tank hull. Penetrations are difficult to determine at present. Overall, helicopters will have little time to dodge once the missile APR 120 is close. The fact that it will be hard to find where it fired from.

 

First APR 120

Second APR 155

These arent missiles, these are guided rounds.
I can imagine them as a shell and Fritz-X and missile mix. You shot them as a HEAT round, and guide it as a missile, but free falling and guidenance is between narrow borders like Fritz-X. What is the penetration, is it known? Its hard to give these a BR, you know...

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

4 hours ago, Miltaccfd said:

These arent missiles, these are guided rounds.
I can imagine them as a shell and Fritz-X and missile mix. You shot them as a HEAT round, and guide it as a missile, but free falling and guidenance is between narrow borders like Fritz-X. What is the penetration, is it known? Its hard to give these a BR, you know...

 

Yes, but it is modern ammunition.

This is probably not a stupid idea, but the 2021 April fools event Warfare 2077 in WT Gaijin TEST the mechanics of such ammunition !!!

[Miltaccfd 240]

9 minutes ago, AkIvonDemolka said:

 

Yes, but it is modern ammunition.

This is probably not a stupid idea, but the 2021 April fools event Warfare 2077 in WT Gaijin TEST the mechanics of such ammunition !!!

Harpys lock on and shoot rounds? Those are too advanced compared to this I think. I mean... You have to guide this. You have to keep the laser pointer on line. That one was like, locking onto a target and press a button, the round itself does it all, fire and forget. This is not fire and forget.

APR 120 is claimed to be an AT round, so it probably has a HEAT warhead with unknown penetration.
APR 155 is based on ukranian Kvitnik round and its most likely a HE Frag with 8 kg explosives. That can kill anything with the new overpressure mechanism, but only if hit on the right places.

I dont know how these can be balanced. It should be around equal to a missile with the same warhead, and its not promising, it feels like a very modern stuff but i cant imagine Krab can reach a BR of more than 8.0 or maybe 8.3.
Raks however can have quite a good pen and it has lower velocity, so more of a top down approach. Rosomak is fast too. Around 9.0-9.3...? Even that seems high without stab and a tandem warhead. Shturm-S is 8.7 and I dont see why Raks would be higher.

 

[Miltaccfd 240]

Hello!

I made a visual tech tree for you, you can find new additions in it. As always, the BRs are based on the claimed firepower, protection and mobility data, the tree is built up just like Gaijin would do.

What you would like to see next?

[RazNaRok 616]

Use correct pictures for 7TP jw and 7TP jw late series.

Actually you have both with late production series.

For Early production one, search a photo where are visible:

- early turret without radio bay or a late turret with radio bay but without mounting nodes of field radio antennas

- engine cooling louvers on the rear plate

- bottom exhaust placed just above the rear beam with towing hook.

 

Use the correct nomenclature in accordance with the nomenclature of archival documentation, not colloquial names created by post-war authors.

Correct for polish Tankettes are:

TK-D

TK-S

TK-SD

 

Change the photo of the TK-SD tankette, the current one suggests that it was only a armored tractor for the infantry 37mm Bofors wz.36 AT gun.

Edited July 3, 2021 by RazNaRok

[GrumpyStranger 723]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that one's just a pair of aerial pods with unguided missiles strapped onto a truck. Which makes it a slightly less useful BM-13.

[Miltaccfd 240]

On 03/07/2021 at 19:40, GrumpyStranger said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that one's just a pair of aerial pods with unguided missiles strapped onto a truck. Which makes it a slightly less useful BM-13.

 

This is a pair of aerial pods strapped onto a truck. This is the Polish solution of the drone problem. It can shoot proximity rockets at aerial targets up to 4 km (ingame maybe more?). Also it can shoot the older type HEAT rockets with 400 mm of pen. I dont think that its a less useful BM-13. Maybe the BR is a little high, but its quite hard to balance. 

 

@RazNaRokThanks for the tips. I didnt realized both the 7TPs are main production variants. So the names of the tankettes are post-war "creations"? That had been never said to me before. On the TK-SD picture its gun can be seen. But as far as I know, thats the only picture of the second prototype with the crew of 4. Am I right? 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Miltaccfd

[GrumpyStranger 723]

Proximity rockets meaning unguided rockets with a proximity fuse and a HEAT payload, yup. Which makes it essentially a rapid-firing 8cm AA gun that can pull double duty as a 8cm HEAT delivery mechanism. Color me unimpressed.

 

@RazNaRok

The first photo is from Pustynia Błędowska trials in 1938, while the late production run started in 39, did it not? Meaning, the photo was right the first time

[RazNaRok 616]

1 hour ago, GrumpyStranger said:

The first photo is from Pustynia Błędowska trials in 1938, while the late production run started in 39, did it not? Meaning, the photo was right the first time

 

Yeah.

 

However a photo of the 7TP "SMOK" with non radio turret could be better.

Or any other where "bottom" exhaust is visible, or left side of turret without antenna mount.

Edited July 5, 2021 by RazNaRok