tech tree Visegrad Group - Ground tech tree

[raxu_ 569]

Yes! I love CZ, great country!

[Farvetto 1,212]

I dont see any reasons why it SHOULD NOT be in the game. So what if someone will say "COPY-PASTE" ? You can have a Multi nation with mixed machine line-up  

+69 add plz XD

[Promi_HUN 1]

 

Hi! I really like the idea! I also dealt / deal mainly with Hungarian combat vehicles. Therefore, if not wrong I would make a few adjustments. In the description, the Turán 1’s 40mm gun performs quite poorly compared to the T-21’s 47mm. In fact, the opposite was true. The military command chose the domestic cannon not only because it was available, but also because it had better overall performance than the Skoda tank cannon. You also described that the initial speed of a 40 mm projectile is significantly higher, but it weighs less, so farther away (around 1000 m) the Skoda cannon performs slightly better due to its higher weight. The correct punch at the Turán is somehow 69-70 mm at 10 meters with the base ammunition and 84-87 mm at the 43M upgrade. The game can be compared to the British 2pdr cannon, both have similar characteristics. A 47 mm cannon can have a punch of about 65-69. I'm glad I was able to add to the project, just keep going!

Edited May 17, 2020 by Promi_HUN
different language

[HufnagelPista 135]

As far as 1 know, the Czech Republic bought a few AH1Z and UH1Y, so the V4 heli tree could be rather capable one. 

[QeDpln 42]

54 minutes ago, HufnagelPista said:

As far as 1 know, the Czech Republic bought a few AH1Z and UH1Y, so the V4 heli tree could be rather capable one. 

4 AH-1Z and 8 UH-1Y ordered in December '19 yet to be delivered.

[Doglio 27]

I love this! Way better idea than some "Internatonal, Pan-Europe etc." trees which would turn into inconsistent trash bin or some "minor-Axis/Allies, Warsaw Pact/Nato" that binds it too much into one historical conflict/era forgetting War Thunder time frame is much broader. Visegrad and Benelux are both phenomenal way (imo) to represent nations that alone would be kinda not worth grinding with lots of copy/paste and gaps in BR. (Sweden imo also should become Nordic tree)

Looked into linked sheet but any info when Aviation tread would be made? Everything in War Thunder starts from planes and honestly that branch is probably the most interesting to me. WIP is like a preview to me. (I suspect making good aviation tree will be way harder than ground forces)

Mostly agree with OP but...

On 22/02/2020 at 03:11, Miltaccfd said:

But still, what about Poland? Without its copy pastes their tanks (without paper projects) are 1.0, in aviation the highest number is around 2.0. Around 3-4 BR gap (same story, I don’t want to see duplications mixed), and post war stuff – copies, but at least these were officially operated by Poland. Firstly we don’t have a nation with a gap with this size in low BRs, secondly I don’t think these BR 1.0-2.0 vehicles makes Poland a clear allied nation (planned the next tank - 14TP - with German engine, several planes exported to axis nations, no, clearly not an allied nation before 1939).

Poland pre-war tanks would make them clear allied nation, with close connections to Great Britain even (7TP, TKS), planes would unique following world trends and tanks started to also be unique but war ruined theirs plans. But thats a small detail, where most importantly is making regional representation of Visegrad group vechicles. That said, You got fixed on making historical "sides of war" within the tree, but stil in the end Soviet tanks would be suppported by mix of Bf 109 and Ił-10, either stick to historical side of things, or make good line-up with vechicles these countries used, espiecially in planes. Anyway, love this idea and GREAT research.

 

[QeDpln 42]

45 minutes ago, Doglio said:

Looked into linked sheet but any info when Aviation tread would be made?

The Aviation Tree as it is in the spreadsheet is probably fairly close to what the forum suggestion is gonna be. We are currently working on getting/calculating some more performance data and miltac is writing the post. But he has a lot going on IRL right now afaik, so it might take a while.

 

49 minutes ago, Doglio said:

Soviet tanks would be suppported by mix of Bf 109 and Ił-10

Czechoslovakia did operate 109s after the war, so that is fairly accurate.

[Miltaccfd 240]

On 14/05/2020 at 14:06, Promi_HUN said:

Hali!

Nagyon tetszik az ötlet!  

Én is foglalkoztam/foglalkozok főként magyar harcjárművekkel. Ezért ha nem baj tennék pár kiigazítást.
A leírásban a Turán 1 40 mm-es lövege elég gyéren teljesít a T-21-es 47 mm-eséhez képest. Valójában pont fordítva volt a helyzet. Nem csak azért választotta a hadvezetés a hazai löveget, mert rendelkezésre állt, hanem mert jobb volt az általános teljesítménye mint a Skoda harckocsiágyúnak. Te is leírtad, a 40 mm-es lövedék kezdősebessége lényegesen nagyobb, viszont kisebb tömegű ezért távolabbra (1000 m körül) a Skoda ágyú valamivel jobban teljesít nagyobb tömege lévén. A korrekt átütés a Turánnál valahogy 69-70 mm 10 méteren az alap lőszerrel, és 84-87 mm a 43M fejlesztettel. A játékban össze lehet vetni a brit 2pdr löveggel, mindkettőnek hasonló a karakterisztikája. A 47 mm-es lövegnél kb 65-69 lehet az átütés. Örülök ha érdemben hozzá tudtam rakni a projekthez, csak így tovább! 

Hali!
Leírom magyarul is a választ, hátha nem tudsz angolul Merthogy amúgy ez az angol fórom, ha tudsz, kérlek angolul írj, mert le leszünk tolva
Nem teljesen úgy van, ahogy mondod történelmi szempontból. A T-21-be több 47 mm-es ágyút is be tudtak tenni. Az egyik az A11, ami itt is szerepel, 775 m/s csőtorkolati sebességgel. Nekünk viszont, ahogy Romániának sem, nem ezt ajánlották, hanem az 560 m/s kezdősebességű A2-es jelű ágyút. Szóval amit te mondasz, az erre vonatkozik, és nem az A11-re. Sőt mi több, az összehasonlítás nem az akkor még nem létező 41.M harckocsiágyúval, hanem a 40.M páncéltörő ágyúval történt, utóbbi csőtorkolati sebessége minimálisan meghaladta a 41.M-ét. Az átütésértékek pedig nem a tesztek alapján, hanem a Gaijin által használt formulával kerültek megállapításra, így a csőtorkolati sebesség, a lőszer súlya, a robbanóanyag töltet súlya és a kaliber segítségével számoltak. Így kerülnének a játékba, pontosak.

Sorry for the hungarian answer, but I didnt knew Promi can speak english or not
The conversation is about the guns of the Turán I and the T-21 (or S-IIc). When the T-21 was sold to Hungary a worse 47 mm gun was offered than I suggested for it in this topic. Thats why the 47 mm gun was rejected and the better 40 mm was used. Promi complained about that the 47 mm of the T-21 is better than the 40 mm of the Turán I, but as I see, he didnt knew its not the same 47 mm (and not even the 40 mm as the 41.M tank cannon was developed later, there was a 40 mm AT gun called 40.M which was compared to the 47 mm)

[Miltaccfd 240]

On 15/05/2020 at 23:16, Doglio said:

Looked into linked sheet but any info when Aviation tread would be made?

Will be out in 2 weeks This pandemic thing and my school forced me to take a break in the making, so... Yeah it should be out already Sorry for that.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Miltaccfd

[PacketlossRedux 595]

one thing tho that i dont agree with is that Hungary as the sole non German user of the Tiger tank would have to buy it as a premium like if it would be a captured tank.

As the Panther, the Tiger I too deserve to be regular. Its not premium material.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Jacky95

[Miltaccfd 240]

Its finally up!

 

[Borotovas 4,500]

I think I'm going to have to disagree with this. I looked at the new changes, and this tech tree ends up with a lot of copy+paste tanks.

 

I would prefer a minor NATO tech tree instead of this, so we can add more unique vehicles instead of the copy+paste tanks. I think it would be the best, so that all the smaller nations can have a place, not just 4 Eastern European countries. Because, where is Lithuania? Where is Latvia? Where is Slovenia? 

[Miltaccfd 240]

8 hours ago, Borotovas said:

I think I'm going to have to disagree with this. I looked at the new changes, and this tech tree ends up with a lot of copy+paste tanks.

 

I would prefer a minor NATO tech tree instead of this, so we can add more unique vehicles instead of the copy+paste tanks. I think it would be the best, so that all the smaller nations can have a place, not just 4 Eastern European countries. Because, where is Lithuania? Where is Latvia? Where is Slovenia? 

First, LTL is Lithuanian

There wasnt any changes, only a Challanger. (OMG one copy paste added) But please, give me the opportunity, and suggest the Latvian or Lithunian tank that can be added instead of the Panther for example. Name that unique 5.7!
These small nations you want only gives Rank I vehicles, above that the tech tree still must be filled up. There will be still copy pastes. Thats not a solution.

[Borotovas 4,500]

12 hours ago, Miltaccfd said:

First, LTL is Lithuanian

There wasnt any changes, only a Challanger. (OMG one copy paste added) But please, give me the opportunity, and suggest the Latvian or Lithunian tank that can be added instead of the Panther for example. Name that unique 5.7!
These small nations you want only gives Rank I vehicles, above that the tech tree still must be filled up. There will be still copy pastes. Thats not a solution.

 

You could still add Lithuanian helicopters and planes.

 

And rank 1 is usually a busy rank, so it needs many vehicles.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Borotovas

[Miltaccfd 240]

17 hours ago, Borotovas said:

 

You could still add Lithuanian helicopters and planes.

 

And rank 1 is usually a busy rank, so it needs many vehicles.

Usually busy, and thats why this rank I is bigger than any of the examples ingame. These rank ones are alreay busy.
If you find a place where I can add a Lithuanian tank, I will add the Š-I-SPO, the Turán and the Toldi 40 mm 37.M prototypes, several CDK variants, 7TP doświadczalny instead, because these missing due the lack of place.
If you find a place for a Lithuanian warplane, Ill add more PZL P.7, P.11 and maybe P.24 variants, Letov Š-328 variants, PZL.30s or Aero A.304, because these are the ones that supposed to be here, not the Lithuanian planes.
If you find a place for a Lithuanian helicopter (is there any with good AT armament or just Mil Mi-8 with unguided rockets?) I will add the Mi-8/17s with the same capabilities from Visegrád Group. If you are suggesting modern helis which are ordered with modern armament, ill add PZL W-3PL, W-3PL/N (which is only in development yet), H-145M (currently under delivery), or H-225M (ordered).

You could accept that Lithuania is not Visegrád Group, and we have the possibilities even without Lithuania. Moreover, for example Romania needs the help more than this tree. Try it there.
Or make a tree competing with Visegrád Group, with your ideas and your solutions, and the community will decide which one is better  

Edited June 12, 2020 by Miltaccfd

[*KamisamaKariudo 2]

I like the idea, there would be lot of unique things. There is also large variety of planes and tanks. Helicopter tree shouldnt be a problem. It would be perfect. 4 Countries in one pack. Im also adding an image of the quite new czech project tank T-72 Scarab. Hope we will get V4 to the game.

[Miltaccfd 240]

Helis are on the forum, too.

Spoiler

 

Next project is refresh the ground tree, there are more top tier USSR than before, so new PT-91s coming maybe? Some MBT not a mod anymore? What would you like to see?

 

[AftiksPL 197]

10 hours ago, Miltaccfd said:

What would you like to see?

Polish GAZ-69M with B-10 recoilless gun

[Thurny 179]

Keeping in mind that several of these nations fought eachother during WW2 I don't see how this would be a good tree to add. Of course, if you only care about more vehicles, this tree is a good bet but why do we then have nations anymore in the first place? Nothing about this tree is immersive and fits to why people like me still play this mess of a game. If added, it would just bring all sorts of problems and, above all, there'd be another completely unessicary tech tree out there that, at the end, won't be played much by the general playerbase. Needless to say, I'm not a big fan of this one.

[Miltaccfd 240]

43 minutes ago, AftiksPL said:

Polish GAZ-69M with B-10 recoilless gun

Good catch

 

 

37 minutes ago, Thurny said:

Keeping in mind that several of these nations fought eachother during WW2

There was a Czechoslovakian and Hungarian feud due Czechslovakia was a Little-Entente member, that was before 1938.
Polish-Czechoslovakian conflicts in 1938, Poland took Zaolzie and later fought some little battles for some Slovakian borderlands.
Little war was before WW2 in 1939 between Slovakia and Hungary
Slovakia of course helped Germans to attack Poland as Slovakia was a German puppet state then and in the Little War, too.
Last two are a 9-day and an around 1-month-long conflicts. At the same time there was the WW2, when the former Czechoslovakia (Bohemia and Moravia, Slovakia) and Hungary were allies, just months after their conflicts. Then, to have an eample for this, too, Hungarians bought the licence of the former Czechoslovakian tanks license, the Š-IIc and produced as the Turán, which can continue the czech medium line.
Polish used vehicles arent in these BRs, as they are and should be in the US and British lines, maybe in USSR tree, too, in the future.
And then came the Iron Curtain, Warsaw Pact and Visegrad Group. From 1945 to present.

In 1938-39 this territory was active. Little-Entente was dissolved. Germany occupied Czechoslovakia. At the same time Poland got some land. Two puppet states came into existence. One was attacked by Hungary to take back Hungarian inhabited lands. Poles did the same. Germany attacked Poland. Hungary got lands from Slovakia and Romania. [...] Later Bohemia and Moravia gave the spine of the Hungarian ground forces (Pz. 38s and Turáns). All of the mentioned except Poland were axis, doesnt matter what changes of territories happened. Relationships have changed in some months. The former enemies became friends almost instantly.

So you think some conflicts happened in 1938-39, not more than maybe two months together is a huge difficulty when making a tree? Even if that tree is from 1938-39, so only the start is a problem? Especially, when we have German vehicles from both East and West from the Iron Curtain? I dont think it is. Even if this 1.0 ground is a little bit weird. And to be honest, I dont think anyone plays 1.0 constantly, nor you, usually beginners for some days, max weeks, so it wont affect your gameplay.
At the same time it will help the MM in higher BRs where USSR and China are alone and a lot of times they are paired with France, Sweden or else. So an eastern tree is a need, here it is. Germany could have another ally in mid BRs, where it is sometimes have to be paired with a non-axis nation, for example Sweden.

 

1 hour ago, Thurny said:

won't be played much by the general playerbase

4 nation, around 65 million population overall. There are a lot of players from V4 nations and Im sure, there would be more if this will be added.
A lot of unique, interesting things here are, so probably a lot of players will try them out. Have a look at the poll or comments, usually players like the idea.

For Gaijin, its a huge tree, with a lot of RP needed. Potentially premium account and/or vehicles needed for research. There are a lot of premium and event vehicle possibilities. Its a viable idea overall. We will see how it goes.

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

This is a good idea and if I can help you in searching for Polish armaments of tanks, helicopters and warships and information about them.

 

Suggestion

A modified T-72M1R tank from the 20th Mechanized Brigade. The vehicle received new, passive sighting and observation systems and encrypted communication, as well as several other small improvements. The delivery of these machines started at the end of 2019. By the end of 2025, there should be at least 230 of them. These are bridge solutions until a new tank, codenamed Wilk, is introduced into service.

The changes made to the T-72M1R mainly include the fire control system and communication. The aim was to increase the capabilities in a low-cost manner, but also with minimal changes in the way of handling, as many of these tanks will be manned by reservists.

The most visible effect of the modification, which allows you to easily distinguish the T-72M1R vehicles, is the disappearance of the infrared illuminator located to the right of the gun. This is possible because the short-range active night vision systems requiring its use have been replaced with newer, domestic solutions. The commander and the driver received modern Polish night vision observation devices, while the gunner's position is equipped with a third generation KLW-1 Asteria thermal imaging camera. The same type was used, among others. in modernized Leopard 2PL tanks. All optoelectronic components were supplied by PCO.

Another key change is the replacement of post-Soviet radio stations with digital means of internal and external communication, adapted to cooperate with the BMS battlefield management system. It is a FONET system produced by the WB Group together with radio stations produced by RADMOR plants. As part of the work, the W-46-6 diesel engines are also refurbished, which also receive a digital starting system. New power systems with buffer batteries are installed. In the rear part of the vehicle there is a basket for the crew's equipment. The changes did not include the armament, protection or armor systems of the vehicle, which maintains its usefulness in the modern battlefield at a level at least debatable.

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

Suggestion

 

Modified Poland DANA ‑ M

 

The scope of modification of the 152 mm Dana-M self-propelled howitzer, on the one hand, improves the efficiency of technical and material protection processes as part of supporting the operation of the equipment by replacing obsolete installations, assemblies and parts, i.e. extending the service life of the entire system and increasing its reparability. On the other hand, a number of other changes to the design and equipment of Dana were implemented, including improved the traction characteristics and working conditions of the crew.
It must not be forgotten that in the case of Polish Danes, procedures were already carried out to increase fire efficiency by reducing the preparation time to start shooting. It is about the assembly of elements of the TOPAZ Automated Fire Control Kit (ZZKO) by WB Electronics SA, started in 2007: the DD9620T commander's computer, the LIOD-F displays of the target and loaders along with new means of external communication (RRC9500 radio) and internal (FONET with central unit KOMUT-10A / TA). Until today, this work has involved around 90 Dan.
The changes introduced as part of the modification to the DANA ‑ M standard mainly concern the chassis and its systems.
The most striking feature is the new glazed cab and the commander's workplace. Instead of two small windows closed with armored covers in the front panel and slots in the side walls, it got four large windows with armored glass - the front ones now cover almost the entire surface of the front panel, the side ones are new. These changes significantly improved the field of observation of both crew members, very important while driving. In the original solution, the observation angles from the driver's seat were as follows (front / left / right) - 72 ° / 10 ° / 6 °, and after modification they were 80 ° / 35 ° / 25 °. The scope of the driver's observation was additionally significantly improved by the system of three cameras enabling the observation of the space at the rear of the vehicle: two side and rear. They all have LED lighting. The image from the cameras is displayed on a monitor mounted on the instrument panel. It should be added that the new driver's and commander's cab provides ballistic cover at level 1 according to STANAG 4569A.
The working conditions of the driver and commander have improved: new seats that reduce the effects of explosions under the chassis, installation of an independent air conditioning and heating system for the cabin, and a new filtering system. Independent heating was also introduced for the cabins located in the tower.
Thanks to other modifications made to the four-axle Tatra 815 VP31 29 265 8 × 8.1R chassis, the driving characteristics were improved, which reduced the driver's load. The former were provided by modification of the air-cooled Tatra T3-930.52 12-cylinder diesel engine, which received a turbocharger and intercooler, and a new Sachs 430 clutch. Modifications were also made to the intake and exhaust systems, as well as the cooling and overload control system. These changes resulted in an increase in engine power from 253.7 kW / 345 hp at 2,200 rpm to 265 kW / 360 hp at 1,900 rpm, an increase in maximum torque from 1,250 Nm at 1,400 rpm to 1,650 Nm at 1,200 rpm and reduced fuel consumption. The new clutch with a disc diameter of 430 mm (previously 420 mm) allows for trouble-free transmission of higher torque. The modified engine was designated Tatra T3-930.52M.

 

However, it shoots old standard ammunition for the Polish wz. 77 DANA.

They are a combination of modernization projects proposed under the DANA-M1 CZ and DANA-M2 projects. EG Polska is also a supplier of foreign components and license construction and technological documentation regarding modification areas.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by AkIvonDemolka

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

Suggestion

M120 Rak is a self-propelled gun equipped with an automatically loaded 120 mm mortar mounted on a wheeled (SMK 120 / M120K) chassis, designed by Huta Stalowa Wola (HSW). It is produced in Poland, and used by Polish Land Forces.

Armor: ARMOX 500T 8 mm thickness, STANAG 4569A Level 1
Main armament: 120 mm mortar
Secondary armament 1 × UKM-2000C
Engine: Scania D1 12 56A03PE
Operational range: 500 km (310 mi)
Maximum speed: 80 km / h (50 mph)

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

Suggestion

Polish Vickers E Typ B

-Used in combat in 1939 in the defense of Poland and in tanks battles in Poland.

-At the time of production launch, one of the most modern tanks in the world, the Vickers Mk. The E remained a fully fledged light tank until the beginning of World War II. Its gun, despite poor anti-tank parameters, was capable of fighting most tanks of that period at short distances. Only the armor of the Vickers tank turned out to be insufficient as anti-tank measures developed, but that was a problem for most types of tanks built by the late 1930s.

- At the request of the Polish side, some improvements were made to them in 1934, mainly large air grips (diffusers) on the sides, behind the fighting compartment, which slightly improved the engine cooling. It was a characteristic only of Polish Vickers!

-Polish Vickers had the same engines improved, but it is not known what it was supposed to be. These modifications were developed at the Polish request by the manufacturer, while the tanks were already converted in Poland (in the workshops of the 3rd armored battalion and PZInż plants) at the expense of Vickers.

-Ideale introduction to the Polish 7TP tank.

Edited September 29, 2020 by AkIvonDemolka

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

Suggestion:

Polski Fiat 508/518 "Motorized Taczanka"

-Anti-aircraft vehicle.

-Good to play 1st Tier for anti-aircraft vehicles

-Armament 1 heavy machine gun wz. thirty

-Possibility to use anti-tank ammunition.

-Used by Poland and Hungary.

 

-Small but hard to hit.