tech tree Visegrad Group - Ground tech tree

[Miltaccfd 240]

47 minutes ago, RazNaRok said:

Keep in mind that the known penetration values of the 47mm wz.25 cannon are overstated.

You dont get it. I calculate with DeMarre, and its penetration is 33 mm. 400 m/s, 2,08kg, 42g explosives (30g TNT, 12g picric acid), APHE. Thats all I need, no historical values.

 

54 minutes ago, RazNaRok said:

It will be better to give it up in favor of the TK-SD with the 37mm Bofors wz.36 cannon.

Why not both? Or if you thought about the 1st TKSD prototype, then why we need two of them? The second prototype with the 4 crew is already in the suggestion.

TKD doesnt need a limited MM. It can pen 30 mm in average ingame urban battle ranges and around 20 mm at 1000 m probably. Its dangerous to BT series, T-26s, even T-28s, most small BR german tanks, even mid brs from the side, most of japanese tanks, british cruisers, so a lot of things it can met. It can kill everithing M2A2 or L3/33 CC can. The biggest issues are italian mediums, most french tanks and stuarts in uptier. I cant feel the need of the limited MM. Also note that this thing is lighter, in some dimensions even smaller than the L3/33 CC, I would love to see these roaming in full of bushes on the fields. Would be fun. And there is the TKS-D too, if you like that more, which is even smaller, lighter and has more pen

 

13 hours ago, AftiksPL said:

Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I would love to see this vehicle and the 150mm Hetzer in the light tank line (Aufklärungpanzer at 1.7 between LT-40 and T-15. and 150mm Hetzer at 3.0-3.3). Both are based on the LT-38 chassis, both are prototypes for the Germans and have not entered mass production like the T-15 and THN n.A.

You are right, light tank line is a possibility too. T-15 and THN n.A. were prototypes for the Germans, just like the 75 mm Aufklärungpanzer, the difference is T-15 and THN n.A. were tested by Czechoslovakia after the war. 5th T-15 prototype was actually built after the war. Its known also that 3rd THN n.A. prototype was the testbed for Tatra 103 engine after the war. I do not know of such tests with these Hetzers and Aufklärungpanzer 75 mm. It would be weird if Visegrad would get the 75 mm Aufklärungpanzer, when Germany has the 20 mm variant. So I still think that even if it makes sense the Aufklärungpanzer 75 mm can be in V4 tree, we shouldnt split up the variants between two trees. Some prototypes has to go for Germany, some reasonable to Czechoslovakia/Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia.

[AftiksPL 197]

2 hours ago, Miltaccfd said:

I do not know of such tests with these Hetzers and Aufklärungpanzer 75 mm.

According to documents from the end of 1946, the Hetzer 150mm was kept in army warehouses. Maybe it was tested, there is no information about it, but it is still quite a unique and interesting vehicle that could fill the gap in era III. The 7 Hetzer Starr from the production series and the prototype with the Tatra 103 engine were certainly used by Czechoslovakia after the war.

I have no information about the Aufklärungspanzer 38 (t), so maybe it will be better if this and the PaK 40 variant will be in the German tree.

Edited April 18, 2021 by AftiksPL

[Miltaccfd 240]

So there is the vehicles which are connected to both Czechoslovakia and Germany:

Aufklärungpanzer 38(t) 2 cm - already in German tree
Aufklärungpanzer 38(t) 7,5 cm - should be in the German tree
Mass produced 35(t) and 38(t) light tank variants - already in German tree, suggested here too as copy pastes
Hetzer - same, already in German tree, suggested here too as copy paste
Hetzer Starr - V4 for sure because of the post war operational usage, possible for Germany too
T-22, T-23M - Germany wasnt really interested, nor needs them, T-22 suggested here (T-21, ST vz. 39 are both pre-war, those are here, too)
T-13M, T-12 - Germany doesnt need them, here they are/will be.
T-15, THN n.A. - Germany doesnt need them, because of the post war tests and prototype manufacturing, suggested here
Vollkettenaufklärer 38(t) Kanone 51 - this is questionable, can be both, I will suggest this into V4 tho
15 cm s.I.G 33/2 (Sf) auf Jagdpanzer 38(t) - because of we know that it was in Cz.slo. post-war, ill suggest here, but still can be Germany or both
Marders based on 38(t) - already in German tree, dont need to be duplicated. Grille (based on Marder chassis) is not needed.
German tanks with BRs V4 lacks equipment and were operated during or after the war suggested here, if possible with modifications or something uniqueness
Gepard and other 38(t) based SPAAG - I dont want to duplicate the Gepard (also wasnt operated by V4s), Bergepanzer 38(t) Hetzer mit 2 cm FlaK 38 has no gun depression to shoot ground targets effectively, 3 cm Mk. 103 auf Sf.38(t) has no turret nor needed as a TD
Hummel (German mod) / SD-152 (Czslo. post-war mod) - I wont add this (yet?), because there already is a decent 4.3 lineup, and I dont want to mix the russian caliber into the wartime stuff
Panzerjäger 38(t) mit 75mm L/70 - should be German stuff
15 cm sIG 33 (SF) auf Pz.Kpfw.38 (t) Ausf.N and other 150 mm stuff - not needed if 15 cm s.I.G 33/2 (Sf) auf Jagdpanzer 38(t) is suggested

7,5 cm Stu.Kan. auf Pz.Kpfw. 38(t) - just a Marder proto, not needed, also should be German
Waffentragers on 38(t) modified chassis - has to be German

 

Is there anything else to speak about?

Edited April 18, 2021 by Miltaccfd

[RazNaRok 616]

17 hours ago, Miltaccfd said:

I calculate with DeMarre, and its penetration is 33 mm

 

Demarre's formula is ahistorical, in most cases it's a paper napkin.

As the shot versus armor can't just be boiled down to a single simple formula, it can brought unnecessary buffs and weaknesses.

 

As I said before, I have nothing against both as long as the TK-D (even if objectively speaking it's a weak one) is seen as a transition vehicle on the way to the TK-SD. 
However, remember not to introduce a WG WoT style paradox by placing it as a successor over the TK-S or the TK-SD due to that formula. As both from historic point of view were supposed to be it's successors.

 

Maybe it will be worth of having a TK-D as starter vehicle with transition to the TK-SD and the TK-S as a Premium or Event one.

[Miltaccfd 240]

3 hours ago, RazNaRok said:

Demarre's formula is ahistorical, in most cases it's a paper napkin.

This is a tech tree suggestion, not a new penetration calculator suggestion. Gaijin uses one penetration calculator for all AP/APBC/APHEBC/APC/APCBC shells in the whole game. This is what Im using too, because it is how these penetrations will be calculated ingame. Doesnt matter it under- or overestimates its penetration, this is how it will be ingame.
https://wiki.warthunder.ru/New_formuls_for_calculating_of_the_armour_piercing

It needs 5 types of data, caliber, projectile weight, velocity, weight of explosive filler and does it have a piercing cap or not.
This shell is a normal AP (no piercing cap), 47 mm caliber, 2,08 kg projectile weight, 400 m/s velocity, 42 gramms (0,042 kg) of explosives. Formula says it has 32,89 mm penetration, which will be 33 mm ingame. Its just easy like that. Gaijin implemented this, because even if this is not accurate, it is not affected by the material of the armor plates in the tests, or the different definitions nations used for a penetration. Because you can use soft plates and penetration can be "20% of the projectile material went trough in at least 20% of test shots", or you can use hard plates and "80% of the material went trough in at least 90% of test shots" penetration. Difference can be 10-20% or even more in penetration got from these tests. This is why you can see different values for german guns in British, US, German or Soviet sources. Using this mentioned formula it doesnt matter, how tests were going. So Gaijin using it, and in suggestions for WT Im too.

 

3 hours ago, RazNaRok said:

As both from historic point of view were supposed to be it's successors.

Just like Panther F should be after G, or Panzer III E should be after B. Ingame its not a point of view. Im sure, there are and will be players complaining about this vehicle, thats why I placed it in that folder, in a "side line", where those players can research it, who wants.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Miltaccfd

[RazNaRok 616]

2 hours ago, Miltaccfd said:

there are and will be players complaining about this vehicle

 

I am more than aware of this. That is why we are with GrumpyStranger maybe little bit too objective, as we have already covered such similar topic once, and the situation seems to repeat itself.

 

So maybe the solution that will satisfy everyone will be therefore as I did mentioned above.

Additionally, it should also enable the GJ's to introduce a starter pack with vehicles from September 1939:

• TK-D => TK-SD - researchable
• TK-S - Premium or Event vehicle.

 

Moreover, I would also consider moving the 7TP of late series to a premium vehicle, in exchange of the 7TP reinforced of the BBTBrPanc being the researchable one.

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by RazNaRok

[Miltaccfd 240]

32 minutes ago, RazNaRok said:

 

I am more than aware of this. That is why we are with GrumpyStranger maybe little bit too objective, as we have already covered such similar topic once, and the situation seems to repeat itself.

 

So maybe the solution that will satisfy everyone will be therefore as I did mentioned above.

Additionally, it should also enable the GJ's to introduce a starter pack with vehicles from September 1939:

• TK-D => TK-SD - researchable
• TK-S - Premium or Event vehicle.

 

Moreover, I would also consider moving the 7TP of late series to a premium vehicle, in exchange of the 7TP reinforced of the BBTBrPanc being the researchable one.

 

You probably know, Im trying to update the suggestion. I wasnt satisfied with the first rank, so I did some rework. It is not public yet, but lets talk about it. I removed the 20 mm toldis from the tree, those had similarly low penetration, 34 mm, werent so fast, nor small enough or well armored, I saw no reason to keep them. I also moved the other Toldis (B.40 and C.40) to the formerly wheeled line, this way I filled up some of the gaps there. HIM-6/III was moved to the premium branch.
At this point there was only the folder of the V-4s in the light tank line. I exchanged them with the 7TP and 10TP, and split the folder of the TPs.
Decision was made, I resorted the czech light tanks in the next order: vz.38 and successors went to the light tank line, vz.34, 35 and successors went to the medium line. This was because vz.38 modifications were considered light tanks later, too, and S-IIc were medium tanks developed from the vz.35, sharing suspension and other parts.
So we ended up free space to use, and it was possible to add T-13M and T-12 to the medium line, also re-add the SP-II-b, which was where HIM-6/III is now in the premium line.

So now this is how it looks (Im trying to do a similar "visual tree", what aviation tree got before, most of the pictures arent updated yet):

Also you can see TKD is a light grey cell, which means it is a "possible addition" in this tree.

First of all, the good news. There is a chance to add an other 7TP in a folder with the jw., because light tank line doesnt seem so overfilled now. Yes, there was only the early series jw. was added.
But
As I said before, I dont want anything to add without a picture of the actual vehicle or a mockup. So the only 7TP variant I would add without breaking my rules is the late serie one.
7TP reinforced, I just have no picture of. I know it had to be tested, and because it was tested, it was built too, but there are just drawings out there. I dont know if thats enough, but I dont want to build on an unstable base. (For a sidenote, I saw a negative post that we suggested something doesnt even exist, that was the TNH 57-900 II, which one, wasnt even suggested, two, that tech tree pic is not even mine, was just a shared tree. That tank was actually started, and we have pictures of its gun and a prototype hull doing tests, but project was shut down later. Claiming that even this caused a negative feedback, I just wont suggest anything I dont have a picture of, because a picture is equal to an evidence.) Gaijin added the Ostwind II in the near past tho, which can be a light in the dark for you.

Move the TKS into the premium branch is not a possibility, because (even if there is one example in game for 11) 10 premium vehicles per rank cant be exceeded.
TKS is the first researchable TD, because it has a fairly powerful autocannon. Player using it wont suffer even if he/she is unexperienced in this game. TKD however can be a bigger challange to use, thats why its in folder after the TKS, players dont have to research it if they want to grind up in the ranks. Its a researchable meme vehicle, with what I dont have to open a new folder to add/keep. And the last tankette in the folder is the TKS-D, the second proto to improve its survivability, because it has a crew of 4. This is the only vehicle you have to research the TKD for, but I think, its acceptable, and this is the right thing to do. You also said that, but Im afraid as the first vehicle of the folder TKD can not work, as you want.
 

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

Crazy and funny meme suggestion of a premium vehicle: the T-34-85 as the Leopard 1A5 and the IS-2M as the M48. Vehicles modified for the military training of the Warsaw Pact.

[tricakill 38]

Really loved this 

[Major_Shaker 2,633]

I support this idea and now I know why my suggestion for Warsaw pact & Comecon tech tree might have been declined.

Here is my list of Ground army tech. I know it includes other nations outside of Visegrad. Maybe we could make Ukraine and others as subnation?

 

CS Factories: ZTS Martin (former Závod J.V.Stalina (ZJVS) in the Slovakian of Martin), CKD Sokolovo, Kubra Trencin, PPS Detva

PL Factories: Gliwice

 

Spoiler

 

Light Tanks

Lt. Vz 34 (Panzer 35t) pic pic2 pic3 source

Lt. vz. 38 (LT 38/37) pic pic2 pic3 pic4 pic5 source

Stuart M5A1

T-70 pic

 

Medium tanks

Skoda T-21 pic

Praga V-8-H ST vz. 39 pic pic2 pic3 pic4 source

Cromwell IV pic

Cromwell VI pic pic2 pic3

Cromwell VII pic pic2

Challenger mk.VIII  pic pic2 source

Panzer IV H/J (T-40/75) pic pic2 source

Sherman III pic

Sherman Firefly pic pic2  

T-34/76 model 1942 pic pic2

T-34/76 model 1943 pic pic2 pic3 pic4 pic5 pic6 pic7 pic8 pic9 pic10 source source2

T-34/85 (ZJVS Martin notable for its V shape signature on turret and very smooth surface) pic1 pic2 pic3 pic4 pic5 pic6 pic7 pic8 pic9 pic10 pic11 pic12 source book-source booksource source2

T-34/85M2 (Modernised similar to 1960-1969 Soviet mods) pic1 pic2 pic3 pic4 pic5 pic6 pic7 source soviet-pic1 soviet-pic2 soviet-pic3 soviet-pic3 source source2

 

Heavy tanks

Teski Tenk Vozllo A - T-34/85 (Yugoslavia, Factory 112) pic pic2 pic3 source

Is-2 (1944 mod)  pic pic2 pic3 pic4 pic5

Is-3 pic pic2

 

TD/SPG

ST-1 Hetzer (SD 73/39-44) pic pic2 pic3 pic4 pic5 pic6 source

Stug III Ausf G fitted with the Topfblende pot mantlet (SD 75/40) pic source

Su-76M (SD 76/42) pic pic2 pic3

Su-85 (SD-85) pic pic2

Su-100 (SD-100) pic pic2 pic3 source source2

Su-152 (SD-152/37) pic pic2 pic3 pic4

Asu 85 pic pic2 pic3

 

Amphibious

PT-76 pic pic2 pic3 pic4

BMP-1 pic pic2 pic3 pic4 pic5 pic6 pic7 source source2

BMP Svatava pic source

BMP-2 pic1 pic2 pic3 pic4 pic5 pic6 pic7 pic8 pic9 pic9 source source

BVPsVI Istar pic pic2 pic3 source

BVP-M pic pic2 pic3 pic4 pic5 pic6 source

MT-LB pic

 

SPBAA/SAM

Vz. 53/59 Jesterka pic1 pic2 video source

ZSU-57-2 pic pic2 pic3

ZSU-23-4 Shilka pic pic2

9K33 Osa pic pic2

9K35M Strela 10M pic1 pic2 pic3 pic4 pic5

MT-LB-23 pic pic2

ZU-23-2 Sopel pic pic2 pic3 source

 

MBT

T-54A pic1 pic2 pic3 pic4 pic5 source

T-54AM pic pic2 pic3 pic4 source

T-55A pic pic2 pic3 pic4 pic5 pic6 video source source2

T-55AM1 Merida pic pic2 video video  

T-55AM2 Kladivo pic pic2 video source

T-55AM2B pic pic2

T-55AGM pic video

T-64BM Bulat pic pic2 pic3 video

T-64BV pic video

T-72 pic pic2 pic3 pic4 video source

T-72M pic pic2 pic3 source

T-72M1 pic1 pic2 pic3 pic4 pic5 pic6 pic7 video video2 source

T-72M2 (Moderna) pic1 pic2 pic3 pic4 pic5 video1 video2 source

T-72M3 (Vetra) pic1 pic2 pic3 pic4 source

T-72M4CZ pic1 pic2 pic3 pic4 video source

PT-91 Twardy pic1 pic2 video video2

PT-91M Pendekar/Malaj pic1 pic2

M-84 pic1 pic2

M-84AS pic

T-80UD Bereza pic

T-84 Oplot  pic pic2

T-84BM Oplot pic

T-90S / Bhishma pic

Edited April 26, 2021 by Major_Shaker
subnation suggestion

[AftiksPL 197]

7 hours ago, Major_Shaker said:

Maybe we could make Ukraine and others as subnation?

Yugoslavia, Romania and Bulgaria would look better together as one big Balkan tree. Maybe Ukraine, they cooperate a bit with Poland (PT-17, laser guided ammunition, ATGMs, ZRN-01 Daisy...) But I'm not sure that Visegrad needs additional vehicles for high eras.

Edited April 26, 2021 by AftiksPL

[Major_Shaker 2,633]

15 hours ago, AftiksPL said:

Yugoslavia, Romania and Bulgaria would look better together as one big Balkan tree. Maybe Ukraine, they cooperate a bit with Poland (PT-17, laser guided ammunition, ATGMs, ZRN-01 Daisy...) But I'm not sure that Visegrad needs additional vehicles for high eras.

 

Yes you might be right but then again it is the same copy. My suggestion was to group it together so that it would be more of unique vehicles and to try to avoid copy pasted Soviet ones. 

[HufnagelPista 135]

21 hours ago, Major_Shaker said:

Maybe we could make Ukraine and others as subnation?

My friend, plase dont rush ahead that much...
First, we should see some clues, that the V4 TT would be added in the near future. If the release will be on our doorstep, then we could start speculating about minor nations.
Second, we should count with that fact, the V4-s tried to change their old soviet tech. The V4 top tier should be based on the NATO weapons.
I know nothing about the most modern czech or polish T-72 variants, (so I have that feeling, they are just another T-72s with thermals) but I think if they are in the TT, only the M-84 Oplot can be called unique... Basicly a demo Leclerc

Off:
My polish and czech friends... What is this rummor that you will licence build the K2 MBT for your army?

Edited April 27, 2021 by HufnagelPista

[AftiksPL 197]

42 minutes ago, HufnagelPista said:

Off:
My polish and czech friends... What is this rummor that you will licence build the K2 MBT for your army?

No license for the new tank has been purchased. The only thing that has been presented so far is the Korean proposal for the Wilk program, the American GDLS, German KMW and Polish OBRUM also participate in the program. So it is not known what will be chosen yet.

Edited April 27, 2021 by AftiksPL

[Major_Shaker 2,633]

7 hours ago, HufnagelPista said:

I know nothing about the most modern czech or polish T-72 variants, (so I have that feeling, they are just another T-72s with thermals) but I think if they are in the TT, only the M-84 Oplot can be called unique... Basicly a demo Leclerc

 

If any country that is part of NATO does a modernisation it is basically a NATO modernisation of Soviet vehicle thus making it unique. It might have resemble shape but its functionality and features will be different. 

I am Slovak and If I am not mistaken and remember well then modernised equipment of army has been done in cooperation with some companies from NATO allies. 

 

 

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

On 27/04/2021 at 14:08, HufnagelPista said:

Off:
My polish and czech friends... What is this rummor that you will licence build the K2 MBT for your army?

 

As for Korean tanks. Under the "Wilk" program, taking into account the current demand for MBTs, at least 500 new MBTs should be acquired in the existing and newly formed structures of the Polish Armed Forces. This will make it possible to replace the decommissioned T-72 and PT-91 tanks in a 1: 1 ratio and maintain the current combat potential at the level of approximately 800 tanks. The Ministry of National Defense assumes that the program will be implemented with a broad participation of the Polish defense industry, and the tanks themselves will be manufactured in Poland (probably as part of cooperation). For now, however, Wilk is still at the stage of analysis.

 

K2PL Wilk

[AftiksPL 197]

Self-propelled anti-aircraft missile launcher ‘Turkus’

 

The first project realized by OBRMZiT in Stalowa Wola and the Military University of Technology in Warsaw. The works commenced in 1976 thus, soon after the production of MT-LB had been launched. The anti-aircraft weapon system consisted of two launchers of K-13 infrared guided missiles. Two prototypes were produced. The modernized version ‘Turkus 2’ in which the double anti-aircraft 9M31 ‘Strzała-1M’ missile launcher was applied constituted the further step. The vehicle was to be equipped with the passive sighting system assuring its non-detectability. It was designed to destroy low-flying targets at the altitude between 50 and 3000 m. The research and development works were conducted in the years of 1976-1981. The prototype, which was subjected to the technical tests, was built. During the tests the representatives of the Armed Forces decided that the vehicle did not comply with the accepted tactical and technical criteria and the further works were ceased [Historia Huty… 1996, p. 5].

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

Suggestion for a meme vehicle: T-26 STZ-5.

This is not a photo montage. Something like that existed and operated with cannons and machine guns. Only one picture is known.

Soldier of the Home Army - Cpl. Stanisław Bednarek "Król", with a tank that was eliminated from combat, constructed by members of the UPA (Kupiczów, November 1943).

 

On November 22, 1943, the Banderites attacked the Kupiczów with the forces of over a thousand such a tank. The Polish defenders were assisted by the Home Army troops, which forced the Ukrainians to withdraw and set their tank on fire. These fights were recalled by one of the Polish soldiers, Olgierd Kowalski: “After a few days, the UPA renewed the siege, attacking from all sides and additionally scaring the defenders with a" tank ". This tank can be said to be self-made, because it was made by own industry in such a way that a pair of armor plates and a turret from a real Soviet tank were attached to the tracked tractor. The "tank" was armed with a cannon and a machine gun, it made a lot of noise, and the accompanying lines too. He managed to get quite close to the defenders, but the lines were pressed to the ground by machine gun fire. After some time, the engine of the "tank" went out, attempts were made to repair it, but the fire scared the daredevils to no avail. Soon Lt. "Jastrząb" came to the rescue and broke the ring of the encirclement. As the UPA retreated, they pierced the tank with spare fuel, removed the cannon lock and set fire to their vehicle. The fire was extinguished, several pairs of horses were harnessed, and the captured vehicle was triumphantly brought to the town, placing it in an exposed place. I was told that for many years it was the highlight of some military museum in deep Russia. Of course, not a word was mentioned about the brave Kupiczowians who conquered him. "

[RazNaRok 616]

9 hours ago, AkIvonDemolka said:

Suggestion for a meme vehicle: T-26 STZ-5.

 

 

Definitely not!

 

As it could lead to serious social misunderstanding and political hatred.

 

What would this vehicle actually commemorate?
The heroic struggle of Polish refugees abroad or the felony activity of UPA Banderites?

Edited May 3, 2021 by RazNaRok

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

7 hours ago, RazNaRok said:

 

Definitely not!

 

As it could lead to serious social misunderstanding and political hatred.

 

What would this vehicle actually commemorate?
The heroic struggle of Polish refugees abroad or the felony activity of UPA Banderites?

 

I don't know if this vehicle would cause hate and historical brawls. Say it about other captured vehicles. What would this vehicle actually commemorate? Vehicle captured by the Polish population during the siege and captured Vehicle at the Ukrainian UPA.

[Miltaccfd 240]

20 hours ago, AkIvonDemolka said:

Suggestion for a meme vehicle: T-26 STZ-5.

This is not a photo montage. Something like that existed and operated with cannons and machine guns. Only one picture is known.

Soldier of the Home Army - Cpl. Stanisław Bednarek "Król", with a tank that was eliminated from combat, constructed by members of the UPA (Kupiczów, November 1943).

 

On November 22, 1943, the Banderites attacked the Kupiczów with the forces of over a thousand such a tank. The Polish defenders were assisted by the Home Army troops, which forced the Ukrainians to withdraw and set their tank on fire. These fights were recalled by one of the Polish soldiers, Olgierd Kowalski: “After a few days, the UPA renewed the siege, attacking from all sides and additionally scaring the defenders with a" tank ". This tank can be said to be self-made, because it was made by own industry in such a way that a pair of armor plates and a turret from a real Soviet tank were attached to the tracked tractor. The "tank" was armed with a cannon and a machine gun, it made a lot of noise, and the accompanying lines too. He managed to get quite close to the defenders, but the lines were pressed to the ground by machine gun fire. After some time, the engine of the "tank" went out, attempts were made to repair it, but the fire scared the daredevils to no avail. Soon Lt. "Jastrząb" came to the rescue and broke the ring of the encirclement. As the UPA retreated, they pierced the tank with spare fuel, removed the cannon lock and set fire to their vehicle. The fire was extinguished, several pairs of horses were harnessed, and the captured vehicle was triumphantly brought to the town, placing it in an exposed place. I was told that for many years it was the highlight of some military museum in deep Russia. Of course, not a word was mentioned about the brave Kupiczowians who conquered him. "

Its something interesting, I really like it, but I cant add it. We are lready full in Rank I, plus this is a bad vehicle
It looks like a T-26 hull without suspension and tracks on an STZ-5 artillery tractor. It has no more armor than a T-26. Its high. It had a 37, 45 or 76 mm gun, if 45 mm its okay, if 37 mm we probably shouldnt even try it. 76 mm one is worse too, but its at least ingame somehow... The tractor had an engine rated at 52 HP, which is much less than the 86 HP of the T-26. At the same time its weight is around the same or more than a T-26.
This is something which is worse than a T-26, its slow (STZ-5 top speed is 25 km/h, with this superstructure around 15-20 km/h, on terrain or uphill like 5 km/h). This wouldnt be a meme, this would be suffering
Why it has been broken down? Its a tractor with a max carried weight of 1,5 tons. Thats around 4-6 times more on it I think it was a miracle that its even moved

Edited May 3, 2021 by Miltaccfd

[_IvalinA_ 88]

On 03/05/2021 at 00:32, AkIvonDemolka said:

Suggestion for a meme vehicle: T-26 STZ-5.

... constructed by members of the UPA 

 

22 hours ago, AkIvonDemolka said:

 

What would this vehicle actually commemorate? ...and captured Vehicle at the Ukrainian UPA.

 

Do you even realize what the character of the UPA and Banderites units activy were, aren't You?

Hawing these in mind, You really care to have vehicles representing these units and all their felony activity and participation in the genocide of Poles

in the territories of Eastern Lesser Poland and Volymia as well as anti-Jewish pogroms?

 

UPA and or Banderites vehicles are NO NO.

Of course, generalizing and simplifying it in general, someone could say that for the same reason the entire German tree should be removed...

It's just my opinion and it does not call for political or historical hatred.

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by _IvalinA_

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

6 hours ago, _IvalinA_ said:

 

 

Do you even realize what the character of the UPA and Banderites units activy were, aren't You?

Hawing these in mind, You really care to have vehicles representing these units and all their felony activity and participation in the genocide of Poles

in the territories of Eastern Lesser Poland and Volymia as well as anti-Jewish pogroms?

 

Yes, I know who they were and what they are and what they did. It was just a suggestion. It was a bad idea.

[Охраняет-Камни 6,650]

Do Hungarian Leopards have any peculiarities?

[Miltaccfd 240]

2 hours ago, _Condottiero_ said:

Do Hungarian Leopards have any peculiarities?

The Leopard 2A4HU has different MGs (M240s). Other than that, slight differences, different smoke dischargers than ingame as an example, similar to what we have on the Leopard 2PL ingame.

The 2A7+HU is currently on order. It will have the same M240 probably as coaxial (and M2HB in remote turret) and optimized for urban warfare, so an urban armor kit, more protection on the sides.

Additionally I dont know what kind of ammo Hungary ordered, but there is a chance for the DM11, we already have for Leo 2PL, and has a proximity fuse againt flying targets. Also DM53/63 is probable, as hungarian tankers already used DM88 for training, which is the training ammo for the DM63. DM63 can not be used in A4s due its high pressure, there is a chance that A4HU types wont use any combat APFSDS, just the training munition in Hungarian sevice. These were leased for training vehicles after all...

For the future, Hungary is planning to manufacture the DND ERA of Dynamic Nobel Defence, which can be seen on Puma IFV's sides. Its possible that this ERA will be used on KF41 Lynx and/or the new wheeled APC still under development and/or Leopard 2A7+HU tanks. We still dont know that.